The most overrated thing in footy

[B.M]

The influence of a coach!

I have read with interest, the absolute blaming of Richo for our failures over the past 18 months, here’s my thoughts on the subject of coaches.

It’s an AFL myth that coaches have the most influence over a team performance.

Every time a team loses games, the first question that is asked is that of the coach.
Short sighted and shallow analysis, an easy headline and a scapegoat so supporters can blame someone or something for poor performance.
Just like a premiership is not won by a coach, nor is a wooden spoon.
I’d like someone to name a team without champions, without a great list that has won an AFL premiership?!

Fact is the most dangerous coach, is the one with the best players at his disposal.

Clarkson is seen as a guru, a master coach (team currently sitting below us and beaten by us this year) and yeah, tactically he probably got his team a flag with his ‘cluster’ in 08, but did they steal a premiership over a less hungry Geelong? But also remember, in that year he had beginnings of what was one of the greatest teams ever assembled from the 01 and 04 drafts. Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Roughead, Lewis along with First round picks Birchall and Rioli, plus Shane Crawford amongst others.
Yabby Jeans, clearly STKs greatest coach, but did he underachieve with a side that contained all time greats and made the finals every year for a decade? He went to Hawthorn and coached a super team to multiple flags, but then again so did Alan Joyce, a two time sacked coach. Jeans then had a go at Richmond, with a poor list. Fail! Others super coaches to be absolute failures with lesser teams. Barassi at Melbourne. Parkin at Fitzroy. Walls at Brisbane. Pagan at Carlton. Blight at StK. Malthouse at Carlton.
A coach is the leader of the club, and he does set the game plan, does select the team (as a part of committee with final say) So clearly they must take responsibility for results, but seriously, how much can they impact a game by moving magnets.
The coaches that have probably changed teams fortunes to get success in the modern era are Sheedy 84/92, Blight 97/98, Roos 2005, Clarko 08 and Malthouse 2010. They all either had a distinctive ahead of the pack game style or made moves that turned games, a bit like the handball at all costs of the 1970 Grand Final. But still, they needed players with the ability to carry out their instructions. Their real influence is intangible, that’s why it’s easy to either over rate or blame them. The measurement is wins and losses, which of course has many factors. The strength of the list, the number of injuries to KEY players, and the experience of the team is far more impactful than the person sitting in the box.
Alan Richardson will not be StK coach in 2020, and rightfully so, he’s had his time and didn’t get results. However, to think another coach, with this list and the same amount of injuries would do any better, is an absolute mistake.
The main reason we are not great is;
An average list with no experienced elite players
And Jack Steven, Jake Carlisle, Dylan Roberton, Jarryn Geary, Dan Hannebury, Max King, Jack Lonie, Jimmy Webster, Paddy McCartin.
I am actually shocked we have won 6, Essendon, Hawthorn and GC away were good wins. I didn’t expect to win to win many of the games we lost, but was disappointed in the way we lost two games. Going to China didn’t help.
Ask yourself honestly. Where did you think StK were going to finish in 2019? Then consider the personnel unavailable for the majority of the year and where should we have finished?? I have us bottom 3.

[Scollop]

The most overrated thing in footy

Tell that to the Collingwood fans. They have the stars like Sidebottom, Pendlebury Treloar and De Goey who showed their brilliance and had them leading for most of the time. Clarko obviously needs all his soldiers fit and on the field to implement his plans. We were fortunate that they had injuries when we played them this year and we did a bit of a Steve Bradbury at the finishing post.

Buckley was looking at the stats at the end of the match last night and trying to work out why it all happened. Collinhwood won on the stat sheet in most areas. Buckley expected Hawks to play possession footy but they played on at every opportunity. Clarko's tactics confused the Collingwood players and Buckley was reactive with numbers behind the footy.

This thread could go on for quite a while with examples each and every week where coaching tactics can be the difference.

[bigcarl]

Disagree with the OP. Leadership matters

[Scollop]

Clarko also gives high praise to his young players and he asks the fans to trust in his judgement and trust in the youth. Clarko demands that fans should be patient. In his press conference he talked about introducing skinny kids into his lineup in 2010 and that guys like Isaac Smith and Brad Hill and Breust just needed games under their belt and that they were important components in their premiership years.

That is in stark contrast to the way that Richo has treated some of our young players including Hunter Clark, Brandon White, Ben Long and others. Show faith in the young talent and make sure you cull the mediocre players and the older players that will most likely not be there when you are ready to be a contender

[saintsRrising]

There are many things that matter.

Quality of Coaching is one of them.

Players.
Quality recruiting (and that is not getting ever pick right)
Fitness Team
Medical Team
Admin
Lady Luck
etc

Right now Coaching, Recruitment and Lady Luck are our 3 biggest problems.

[The Peanut]

There are many things that matter.

Quality of Coaching is one of them.

Players.
Quality recruiting (and that is not getting ever pick right)
Fitness Team
Medical Team
Admin
Lady Luck
etc

Right now Coaching, Recruitment and Lady Luck are our 3 biggest problems.

Agree, and the first two can be fixed - If the coach doesn't inspire the supporters, I wonder whether he has the ability to inspire the players. In an interview recently I heard a player (billings I think) saying that 'most' of the players are behind him, that was a telling statement to me.

[leighsaintsince66]

Dont forget virtue signalling , A huge focus of our club in 2018

[ss1986]

Three words - Sir Alex Ferguson....

United are putrid now and have been since he left.

The same squad he won the league with by 19 points, finished the next season in 7th.

If you think the coach doesnt matter, I’d suggest you haven’t played much sport.

[B.M]

Clarko is a great coach, no question. I’m not questioning that, I’m suggesting players are more important.

His side is outside the 8, why? Personnel and injuries. They are an average team and he has said as much.

If ladder positions were reliant on coaching ability, Hawthorn would be top two. It relies on players, they get the ball, they kick the ball.

No doubt coaching plays a significant role, but people on here carry on like every loss, every missed goal, every turn over and every mistake is AR’s fault. Clearly we have a woeful team at present.

On Collingwoods loss, they are in horrible form at present, in fact have not played great footy all season, and relied heavily on Grundy, Moore, Sidebottom and a few other A Graders to get them wins, but are not firing due to having role players out of form. Is Buckley all of a sudden a worse coach than 2018? Where he was all of a sudden a good coach after being terrible previously.

Coaches aren’t messiahs, if you think another coach will transform this list into a finals team, you will be mistaken
Actually you’ll just blame the next coach, as it will be all their fault..

Here’s some good coaches IMO
Len Smith, Ross Lyon, Rodney Eade
And some ordinary ones
Jezza, Jewell, Alan Joyce

How did Brendon Bolton go in his first 5 games as coach?

[B.M]

I actually coach a clubs seniors right now, and played for 20 years.

What I do know is that whilst players rely on me to give them clear consistent messaging, feedback and direction I rely heavily on my players to carry out instructions and perform.
I can’t magically make my players better than they are, I can help them improve and play to potential but if they come up against stronger opponents, the result will generally be as predicted. Upsets happen because the weaker team gets confidence and plays to potential, the stronger team loses focus or motivation is not there.

Q) how many sides have had upset wins against us this year?

I think a new coach will help in 2020, but those who think we will all of a sudden will be a much better team are kidding themselves, and if we do improve it will be because of a lucky run with injuries.

If you honestly believe we are crap because the coach is clueless, have to think a little more about it?!

PS
Ferguson had the biggest club with the biggest budget with the best players when he won trophies
What he did do well was manage ego’s because his ego was bigger than the players. Bit like Phil Jackson.
Dynasties are built by coaches, but players perform and win games.

[samuraisaint]

It all starts at the top.
Unfortunately, the leadership has not been up to it.
I also think recruiting has been highly speculative at best, extremely poor at worst. This includes list management.

Leadership is all important, and unfortunately, the China match is all the evidence I need to back my opinion that at the moment the club isn't being managed effectively on or off the field.

I mean, who allows elite athletes to eat out in an unfamiliar environment full of different bacteria in a country noted for issues with food, a couple of days out from a professional sporting event?

Who tells supporters one week that the major focus of the St Kilda Football Club is to win games of football and then signs a contract to play a team who they never beat in a country where said other team have already been playing successfully for two years for the money?

Since 2013 player development has been noticeably absent with zero accountability for the most part. Players are not ready for senior football when they get their opportunities and selection seems ad hoc.

On field strategies - last week against Richmond reminded me of 2002 when we ran out of players. I mean; really?!? Who thinks supporters and members will turn up to watch that every week?

No, big problems ahead for the rest of this season and those in charge need to start putting in the long hours, and I don't mean long lunches.

[BarryGrogan]

Coaches aren't magicians.

I know some people think that - but they're wrong.


But a coach does dictate the on-field direction of the group.

He is also responsible for drawing out a player's best.


Cho has taken us on a foul direction on-field ehich has yielded zero results in 6 years.

A new coach will bring a new direction. That will undoubtedly be an improvement.


Cho has not brought out the best in almost anyone. Highly touted, skillful jiniors have arrived, and over and over again - they've become plodders.

I refuse to believe that every draftee has been a dud.


A new coach will improve in this area. Of this I also have no doubt.




Unfortunately, Cho has been here too long for anyone to come in and change things overnight. It's goimg to tale time to reverse the damage.

[B.M]

Barry - a couple of questions

How did we make significant improvement from when AR took over a bottom team to 2016 (12w) 2017 (11w)
Was that because of the players, which proves my point or was it because he could coach then, and has forgotten to now? It’s interesting how when we win, it’s the players or Ratten, when we don’t it’s AR solely??

Question 2
I would say Marshall, Billings (2017/2019), Gresham (2018)
Ross (2016-2018), Steele (2018), Membrey, Roberton, Webster, Carlisle and loads of other examples over the last 6 years of players who’ve played well. Again is if they are playing well, it’s on them, if they are playing poorly it’s the coach?

Players who have been very inconsistent and underwhelming since drafting (various reasons)
Dunstan, Acres (overrated player), Lonie (has come good) Longer (pick 25) Long, McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie (tries hard), Newnes (last two seasons)

Promising
Hind, Parker, Paton, Langlands, King, Wilkie

[HighettMan]

The sum of all parts. Timing is a factor in the sum of all parts. We will have a new coach in 2020. He or she is lucky they didn't turn up in 2014. There will be more pressure on the next coach and the honeymoon period will be real real short as he or she will get the keys to list that is ready to take the next step into being a finals teams. This next trade period will be the most important for us in possibily the last 10 years. Get it wrong and the new coach will be burned on a stake by the haters.

So haters wipe the blood from your knives and return them to thier holsters but keep wearing your holsters for at least 2 more years.

[Impatient Sainter]

You need both! Quality players and coaches who can organise motivate and get the best out them. It an indictment on the club that we havent had either of them in the past 8 years!

[magnifisaint]

Absolute farkin garbage. Great clubs have great leaders. We haven't had a greater leader since Riewoldt and Lyon left the club. It starts with the coach and trickles down. Richardson has had 6 years to put something in place and he has failed. The facts are the facts! They are indesputable!
The coach sets the standard and the players follow.

[Joffa Burns]

Good to see Big Mart return to the forum.

Agree with the sentiment on the outcome of this season and the impact of injury, I also agree that the coaching influence can be overrated.

I do think you underplay the role and influence on leadership. It begins with the senior coach and trickles down.

Good read

[Otiman]

The game has moved on since the 80's. Leadership in a footy club is more than the Captain and Coach. There is now a large heirarchy of leaders including finance, administration, medical, fitness, recruitment, development and coaching assistants who all have huge influence over the club internally.

This alone makes "sack the coach" not a quick fix, and is largely the reason the Collingwood move to back Buckley with improved support structures and people has worked for them.

You want your head coach to be a leader, motivator and inspiration. Sure they need some tactical ability but if you can employ someone to perform that duty and be heavily guided by them, then it will work much better.

[saintsRrising]

For 2020:

Change of Coach as whether love or hate Richo the club is now tainted in negativity.

Going into 2020 would carry this weight. For the same reason avoid Scott.

This was Richo's make or break year and it is unfortunate for both he and the club that we have the injuries that we have had this season. But it is what it is, and that is now terminal.

Quality mids who can use the ball well need to be our focus. With them, I genuinely believe that we have sufficient players in most positions to be competitive (I mean competitive and not Top 4). Our list is mainly poor in that it lacks top end cream, and top-end talent in the engine room of the midfield. A better midfield added to an improving Marshall is the missing link though.

Grab the best mid we can with our first pick. (3-5)

Hope that Bytel and King both come up trumps. Especially Bytel in his first playing year and King will most likely take a while.

This new mid and Bytel could potentially be the key to us starting our move up the ladder. Clark to play more mid time in 2020. Coffield to settle on a flank.

While we would all love Cogs, history rarely has guns joining a bottom club. We need to grab the best next tier players available. Quandary for us is that there are few quality mids in this group and it is true quality mids, who are good ball users, that we most need.

Tomlinson may well be gettable, but I am not sure that it will make a difference where we most need it.

Trade out. I am not sure who though. One could argue that we do not need both Ross and Dunstan and both are not good ball users, and moreseo if we have other midfield talent that needs to play. If we could gain something (it will be unders and not overs) for one or both that can help us gain players of most need we should consider it.

Back up ruck in case Marshall goes down. But the club needs to play Marshall as the No 1 Ruck. Bringing in say Goldstein will just delay Marshall's growth.

Hope like hell that Robbo gets cleared to play. This is unlikely though. Robbo is QUALITY.

Steven is also needed. His trade value would be low.

[SAINT-LEE]

Nah.
Who decides which players join the team?
Who decides which player is on the field each week?
Who decides the player structure of the offense?
Who decides the strategy of the offense?
Who decides the player structure of the defense?
Who decides the strategy of the defense?
Who decides which coaches join the team?
Who decides what methods are used in player development?
Who decides what methods and styles of coaching will be employed by assistant coaches with players?
Who decides these and 100 other things?
Not one single player.

Players, play. They do their best and expect to be developed, guided, warned, cojuled, trained , forced, instructed, smashed, comforted , lead, encouraged, held accountable, empowered, released, contained, and on and on.....by the coaches and the one person who set the entire flavour for the dish....the head coach.

[HighettMan]

For 2020:

Change of Coach as whether love or hate Richo the club is now tainted in negativity.

Going into 2020 would carry this weight. For the same reason avoid Scott.

This was Richo's make or break year and it is unfortunate for both he and the club that we have the injuries that we have had this season. But it is what it is, and that is now terminal.

Quality mids who can use the ball well need to be our focus. With them, I genuinely believe that we have sufficient players in most positions to be competitive (I mean competitive and not Top 4). Our list is mainly poor in that it lacks top end cream, and top-end talent in the engine room of the midfield. A better midfield added to an improving Marshall is the missing link though.

Grab the best mid we can with our first pick. (3-5)

Hope that Bytel and King both come up trumps. Especially Bytel in his first playing year and King will most likely take a while.

This new mid and Bytel could potentially be the key to us starting our move up the ladder. Clark to play more mid time in 2020. Coffield to settle on a flank.

While we would all love Cogs, history rarely has guns joining a bottom club. We need to grab the best next tier players available. Quandary for us is that their are few quality mids in this group and it is true quality mids, who are good ball users, that we most need.

Tomlinson may well be gettable, but I am not sure that it will make a difference where we most need it.

Trade out. I am not sure who though. One could argue that we do not need both Ross and Dunstan and both are not good ball users, and moreseo if we have other midfield talent that needs to play. If we could gain something (it will be unders and not overs) for one or both that can help us gain players of most need we should consider it.

Back up ruck in case Marshall goes down. But the club needs to play Marshall as the No 1 Ruck. Bringing in say Goldstein will just delay Marshall's growth.

Hope like hell that Robbo gets cleared to play. This is unlikely though. Robbo is QUALITY.

Steven is also needed. His trade value would be low.

Out of all the injuries we've had over the past 18 months the loss of Robbo has arguably hurt us the most. His value to our list and its development is significantly misunderstood.

[B.M]

Saint Lee

I didn’t realise Alan Richardson had that much power?

Not sure why we employ others if he does it all on his own??
Of course that’d be right if it were 1983

Recruiting, Strategy and Structure, Offensive and defensive, Selection, telling other coaches how to coach, controlling every emotion of his players. Development? Even though we have 6 development coaches wtf do they do
I reckon it’s his fault they miss goals too??

Why stop there, is he responsible for injuries, rehab, fitness?!

He does bear the responsibility for failures, not sure he is to blame for everything though?

I think it’s just easy to think that there is one thing wrong with the club and if he wasn’t there, we’d be good. What a naive, simplistic and ignorant way to analyse our current situation.
The club (including the coach!) is in an awful mess again

Back to the drawing board and learn from the mistakes of the past

[Scollop]

I thought Robbo was so crucial to the team that I thought he deserved to win a best and fairest for our club in 2017

His value was so misunderstood by the coach that Seb Ross had a massive 35 more votes than Dylan in the best and fairest, and Robbo only just beat Jarryn Geary by 3 votes in the Trevor Barker Award for 2017.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=93920&p=1703093&hil ... r#p1703093

Most of the regulars who posted in that topic also thought Steele was going to poll ok that year, but Richo thought otherwise

[SteveStevens66]

"I’d like someone to name a team without champions, without a great list that has won an AFL premiership?!"

Not one of those premiership winning champions would say they haven't been inspired by their coach.

By contrast, in addition to being a lousy strategist and team selector, Richo is a man utterly devoid of personality and charisma. He is incapable of inspiring anyone and that has filtered its way all through the club.

[saintsRrising]

Saint Lee

I didn’t realise Alan Richardson had that much power?

He doesn't.

I think as an over-reaction to the Watters experience that Richo is quite probably the coach with the least say of any of the current AFL coaches.

This is a bad thing.