Can slower midfields win games?

[shanegrambeau]

Of course, right? Skill, game smarts etc., I am asking because of Jake Niall’s flippant joke in the Age earlier in the week, “While the draft wasn’t great entertainment — it was slower than St Kilda’s midfield (prompting Xavier Ellis to quip that top pick Sam Walsh would be a free agent by the time it ended) — there were some important questions raised” Of course it’s a joke, but seriously, if we are slow, or even perceived to be slow, we can’t just make everybody fast (unless we use stimulants) so it seems we have to develop a strategy. It’s easy to say nothing worked in 2018, but it is possible that things might have been even worse, so I wonder, did you see any evidence of us adopting and even succeeding as a ‘slow midfield’? Also, what other teams have ‘slow midfields’ and how are they coping?

[Ferntrree Gully Sainter]

How many of our midfielders can use both sides of their body? Speed is not the be all if the skill isn't there .

[Ghost Like]

No one would ever say the Hawks "threepeat" midfield was ever quick but they were all excellent users who had some equally good ball users on the outside who had genuine pace.
We will always look slow when we turn it over and get caught out with the ball coming back, quicker, with purpose and accurately.
All this creates a poor looking forward line and a backline under stress with the opposite of support. Our runners cannot run to a turnover and sadly the more that happens they then begin to stop running in support.

[saintspremiers]

No slower than The Alan who is it’s leader

[SydneySainter]

During the Ross Lyon era and post that, speed has always been a key factor that’s exposed us and it’s something that we’ve largely failed to address.

Our midfield isn’t fast by any standard, but does that make it one of the slowest? I don’t think so.

I think we look so slow because of the quality of our ball users - they’re aren’t quick enough between the ears. Morale do-gooders, relax! I’m not saying they’re thick, I’m just saying that they don’t have the footy smarts that Lenny and Harvey had to make up for their lack of leg speed.

[whiskers3614]

Every time speed is brought up I suffer from a recurrent nightmare...
Lyon, Lovett, Ball, syndrome!

Was Lenny fast?
Was Diesel?

[wally]

Even back in Thommo's day the criticism was we were too slow never win a game with Lenny, Ball, Peckett, Thompson, & Powell
in the side at once, they won a lot of ball and a few games as well, (was it 04? just about got the job done)

[shanegrambeau]

Even back in Thommo's day the criticism was we were too slow never win a game with Lenny, Ball, Peckett, Thompson, & Powell
in the side at once, they won a lot of ball and a few games as well, (was it 04? just about got the job done)

Yes, the year Port did us in the PF was around then. I didn’t think of those guys being super-quick but I always remember Pecket”s run in the ‘97 GF as inspiring. I think of the era around the mid ‘00s as being notable for being very kick-for-possession-at-all costs orientated,so it felt like the play stopped a lot more. Chance for players with a different kind of fitness maybe? I take two good points here, 1) one sided players likely to look slow in congestion, 2) game awareness lacking leads to less time, hence looking slow.

I hope these new guys can help out, or we develop game smarts to compensate for lack of pace.

[Scollop]

How 'bout dealing with the current squad and assessing where the St Kilda team of 2019 potentially sits in the speed stakes rather than trying to anaylise the midfield we had under Lyon or GT. I think it's important to learn from past mistakes but the competition was different back then and tactics and game plans were also different.

With Ben Long, plus the other 2 indigineous mature age recruits in Parker and Young in the same side and getting midfield minutes I reckon we'll be a different team to the 2018 version, especially if they can gell together and they spend some time together as followers.

I am pretty happy with the mature agers we have drafted and I was quite pleasantly surprised at the strategy. We seem to have at least addressed our need for speed. I am hoping these guys have a good preseason and earn their spots with some reasonable or outstanding performances in the practice games and in the JLT series. Along with our other outsanding mid in Steele and along with the regular performers in Stuvy and Sebby. Gresh needs to be more of a team player and he too can be part of a better and faster midfield

It's a dilemna when you have a bunch of new recruits and they are keen for experience and opportunities and at the same time you also have guys like Newnes, Armo, Dunstan, Sinclair, Clark, Coffield and Patan and Phillips all being fit and ready to show what they can do. Even guys like Blake Acres and even someone like Billings might be playing at Sandringham if he doesn't show that he is keen to outperform the newcomers.

How do you fit them all into the seniors? How do you balance giving Clark and Coff game time and the other boys who have been there for a while when you also have to give opportunities to the new recruits? I suppose if you had a plan to recruit older guys who are ready to impact in round 1 instead of recruiting 18 year olds, you must have a plan to give them opportunity. The other thing in the favour of the new recruits is that the midfield from 2018 did not get the job done so changes are needed

[guitars4]

Every time speed is brought up I suffer from a recurrent nightmare...
Lyon, Lovett, Ball, syndrome!

Was Lenny fast?
Was Diesel?

No they weren't but they were both good decision makers , could read the play & use the ball well . Unfortunately our slow mid aren't & can't IMO

[shanegrambeau]

It's a dilemna when you have a bunch of new recruits......How do you fit them all into the seniors? ..... in... favour of the new recruits is that the midfield from 2018 did not get the job done so changes are needed

Right. When we hear, "we are putting games into new players" it sounds a bit fishy. Yet, we complain about favoritism etc., which keeps people out, it is hard not get emotional if they are older (my all time worst omission , the one that that stings me the most was Max Hughton being left out by RL) or feel sorry for "the battler" if they are young.

Remains to be seen how these new guys will work with each other and the team as a whole. Remember, that up until Round 16-ish?? of 2017, we were trending up. Did we have a slow midfield then? I suppose the answer was yes! Did we suddenly become unskilled, one-sided, game smarts unistalled? Of course not.

[Scollop]

It's a dilemna when you have a bunch of new recruits......How do you fit them all into the seniors? ..... in... favour of the new recruits is that the midfield from 2018 did not get the job done so changes are needed

Right. When we hear, "we are putting games into new players" it sounds a bit fishy. Yet, we complain about favoritism etc., which keeps people out, it is hard not get emotional if they are older (my all time worst omission , the one that that stings me the most was Max Hughton being left out by RL) or feel sorry for "the battler" if they are young.

Remains to be seen how these new guys will work with each other and the team as a whole. Remember, that up until Round 16-ish?? of 2017, we were trending up. Did we have a slow midfield then? I suppose the answer was yes! Did we suddenly become unskilled, one-sided, game smarts unistalled? Of course not.

Agree with you about Max Hudghton however my opinion is that selection of one player over another shouldn't play a significant part in whether a team wins or loses matches. It's the old message that your system should be able to widthstand changes or injuries to most players. 'One soldier replaced by another' philosophy. Obviously there is a tipping point with numbers and especially if we are talking multiple KPP's.

Agree with you about favouritism and the negetaive affect it can play on a senior player's morale and motivation and the negative affect for confidence on development for the younger guys.

Which all points to the impact a head coach and a very good coaching and leadership team should have on a teams fortunes. Maybe without Roo, Joey and Shinner we lacked the mental strength as a collective. Not sure if team selection ( Longer and Josh Bruce playing injured in the early rounds) and favouritism played a role in the team losing confidence and losing its way in early 2018.

I thought as a duo that both Seb and Stuv were more damaging to the opposition in most games in 2017 versus their impact in 2018. The addition of Hannebery into the midfield and the maturing of guys like Steele, Acres, Billings, Gresh, Long etc..will perhaps mean that Dunny or Newnes or Armo will miss a few more games. I reckon Lonie was lucky to get a contract seeing's though we chose mature agers who play forward. It's certainly going to be an interesting transition and I'm looking forward to seeing Parker and Young in the team and looking forward to seeing Longy improve and get midfield minutes

[ace]

Diesel Williams moved slower than the grass but he is considered one of the best midfielders of all time.
His ball distribution was considered to be super elite.

But as for speed
Nobody runs as fast as they would in a 100 metre sprint for their life.
So the word slow really means they don't run HARD.
That is a mental issue.
A slow midfield is not running at 100%, they are not hurting, they want to keep some petrol in their tank.

These electric guys we have just recruited are not faster.
It is they are DETERMINED to burn off their opponents.
Jack Steven displays this when he has the ball, but runs tired when he should be chasing.

More interchange can help but there is a rule limit.
But don't forget interchange with forward pockets and half forward flanks can provide rest time as well.

[bigcarl]

Leg speed can be an advantage, but it’s not everything. In a lot of cases it’s how fast you think and act and move the ball that counts.

Any case, Jack Steven’s certainly not slow and I applaud the move of Gresham to the midfield.

It’s about balance really. We’ve had a preponderance of in and under ball winners around the ball aided by a lumbering ruckman who doesn’t win possessions (Longer) and that’s got to change.

[shanegrambeau]

I think I remember seeing the stats for Round 23 against North. (Which we lost) On nearly every parameter but for clearances, we lose - especially possessions. Doesn’t winning clearances imply a reasonable amount of speed in terms of “snap and grab it” kind of thing? It also suggests our disposal is poor?

[Trev from the Bush]

Slow of foot is OK but mus be fast by hand and faster by brain.

[ListManager]

No slower than The Alan who is it’s leader

This is a disgraceful comment and is deserving of a ban. I have had quite a few run ins with saintspremiers in a previous life and he is trouble.

[guitars4]

Slow of foot is OK but mus be fast by hand and faster by brain.

Right on the money IMO

[Scollop]

Leg speed can be an advantage, but it’s not everything. In a lot of cases it’s how fast you think and act and move the ball that counts.

Any case, Jack Steven’s certainly not slow and I applaud the move of Gresham to the midfield.

It’s about balance really. We’ve had a preponderance of in and under ball winners around the ball aided by a lumbering ruckman who doesn’t win possessions (Longer) and that’s got to change.

Let's assume that we have a better midfield group overall. Would you be happy if we have a ruckman who is dominant and effective with the best hit-outs to advantage numbers in the league? I would. I wouldn't mind if the balance is skewed if it means that Longer absolutely dominates and helps our mids get first use. It is not only benefecial for our mids confidence, but it also puts extra heat on the opposition and helps potentially put them off their game

I actually think that Billy has a lot of potential and hopefully his attitude and focus matures for the teams benefit. Cue Stoney with the 'I told you so's'!!!

Let's assume our forwards also play in a productive selfless cohesive way and the midfield understand the gameplan and the midfield defends well and rebounds well. Let's assume we are more effecient with our possessions to goals ratio and let's assume that we significantly improve our points scored averages.

Wouldn't it better for us to have a dominant tap ruckman rather than an average ruck who gains a few extra possessions?

[mad saint guy]

Our issue is probably more that our players are slow decision makers and our ball movement is slow rather than a lack of footspeed.

Seb Ross hit some of the fastest speeds of anyone in the AFL in 2018 but he sure doesn't play a fast game. Potential linebreakers in our team include Steven, Acres, Gresham, McKenzie, Roberton, Webster, Clark, Coffield, Sinclair and Billings.

However when we've got Seb, Dunstan, Armo and Newnes getting it in the middle, hesitating and then firing out a sloppy backwards handball to no one in particular it makes clean, quick movement out of the midfield difficult

[bigcarl]

Leg speed can be an advantage, but it’s not everything. In a lot of cases it’s how fast you think and act and move the ball that counts.

Any case, Jack Steven’s certainly not slow and I applaud the move of Gresham to the midfield.

It’s about balance really. We’ve had a preponderance of in and under ball winners around the ball aided by a lumbering ruckman who doesn’t win possessions (Longer) and that’s got to change.

Let's assume that we have a better midfield group overall. Would you be happy if we have a ruckman who is dominant and effective with the best hit-outs to advantage numbers in the league? I would. I wouldn't mind if the balance is skewed if it means that Longer absolutely dominates and helps our mids get first use. It is not only benefecial for our mids confidence, but it also puts extra heat on the opposition and helps potentially put them off their game

I actually think that Billy has a lot of potential and hopefully his attitude and focus matures for the teams benefit. Cue Stoney with the 'I told you so's'!!!

Let's assume our forwards also play in a productive selfless cohesive way and the midfield understand the gameplan and the midfield defends well and rebounds well. Let's assume we are more effecient with our possessions to goals ratio and let's assume that we significantly improve our points scored averages.

Wouldn't it better for us to have a dominant tap ruckman rather than an average ruck who gains a few extra possessions?

Honest answer, I think tapouts are overrated. Very few go to one club’s advantage.

Billy’s okay in his physicality and protection of the smaller guys around him, but he’s up against players such as Gawn, McEvoy, Grundy who can do that PLUS take many marks around the ground - or win plenty of the ball in other ways - and kick goals.

In that sense we go into matches often a midfielder down. That is why I was a Hickey supporter.

The best ruckmen are footballers first and big guys second, and Billy’s yet to show he’s much of a footballer. I’d be rapt, of course, to be proven wrong and hope he does.

If he doesn’t, maybe it’s Marshall, though I thought showed quite a bit as a key forward towards the end of the season and perhaps could become a very good one.

[samoht]

Leg speed can be an advantage, but it’s not everything. In a lot of cases it’s how fast you think and act and move the ball that counts.

Any case, Jack Steven’s certainly not slow and I applaud the move of Gresham to the midfield.

It’s about balance really. We’ve had a preponderance of in and under ball winners around the ball aided by a lumbering ruckman who doesn’t win possessions (Longer) and that’s got to change.

Let's assume that we have a better midfield group overall. Would you be happy if we have a ruckman who is dominant and effective with the best hit-outs to advantage numbers in the league? I would. I wouldn't mind if the balance is skewed if it means that Longer absolutely dominates and helps our mids get first use. It is not only benefecial for our mids confidence, but it also puts extra heat on the opposition and helps potentially put them off their game

I actually think that Billy has a lot of potential and hopefully his attitude and focus matures for the teams benefit. Cue Stoney with the 'I told you so's'!!!

Let's assume our forwards also play in a productive selfless cohesive way and the midfield understand the gameplan and the midfield defends well and rebounds well. Let's assume we are more effecient with our possessions to goals ratio and let's assume that we significantly improve our points scored averages.

Wouldn't it better for us to have a dominant tap ruckman rather than an average ruck who gains a few extra possessions?

Honest answer, I think tapouts are overrated. Very few go to one club’s advantage.

Billy’s okay in his physicality and protection of the smaller guys around him, but he’s up against players such as Gawn, McEvoy, Grundy who can do that PLUS take many marks around the ground - or win plenty of the ball in other ways - and kick goals.

In that sense we go into matches often a midfielder down. That is why I was a Hickey supporter.

The best ruckmen are footballers first and big guys second, and Billy’s yet to show he’s much of a footballer. I’d be rapt, of course, to be proven wrong and hope he does.

If he doesn’t, maybe it’s Marshall, though I thought showed quite a bit as a key forward towards the end of the season and perhaps could become a very good one.

MOST HIT OUTS TO ADVANTAGE 2018
1. Max Gawn (348)

2. Brodie Grundy (267)

3. Todd Goldstein (240)

Tapouts, and even hitouts to advantage - are definitely over-rated.
It's Max Gawn and then a big gap/daylight ... as far as hitouts to advantage go.
Despite this, the Demons averaged only 5 more clearances per game over 2018 (38 to 33) compared to us, and we were the bottom team in clearances... and really what does 5 more clearances amount to compared to the 350 or so possessions in a game/team .., and I'm not even sure if you could even credit these extra 5 clearances to Max Gawn's extra hitouts to advantage, anyway??
Ruckmen need to be footballers first and foremost ... kick 10-15 goals a year, take important game-saving marks, gain metres for their team.
That's where their real worth is. Longer has kicked 4 goals over his whole career.

[degruch]

Geez...evidently Jake Niall’s never seen a Geelong game?

[chico2001]

Leg speed can be an advantage, but it’s not everything. In a lot of cases it’s how fast you think and act and move the ball that counts.

Any case, Jack Steven’s certainly not slow and I applaud the move of Gresham to the midfield.

It’s about balance really. We’ve had a preponderance of in and under ball winners around the ball aided by a lumbering ruckman who doesn’t win possessions (Longer) and that’s got to change.

Let's assume that we have a better midfield group overall. Would you be happy if we have a ruckman who is dominant and effective with the best hit-outs to advantage numbers in the league? I would. I wouldn't mind if the balance is skewed if it means that Longer absolutely dominates and helps our mids get first use. It is not only benefecial for our mids confidence, but it also puts extra heat on the opposition and helps potentially put them off their game

I actually think that Billy has a lot of potential and hopefully his attitude and focus matures for the teams benefit. Cue Stoney with the 'I told you so's'!!!

Let's assume our forwards also play in a productive selfless cohesive way and the midfield understand the gameplan and the midfield defends well and rebounds well. Let's assume we are more effecient with our possessions to goals ratio and let's assume that we significantly improve our points scored averages.

Wouldn't it better for us to have a dominant tap ruckman rather than an average ruck who gains a few extra possessions?

Honest answer, I think tapouts are overrated. Very few go to one club’s advantage.

Billy’s okay in his physicality and protection of the smaller guys around him, but he’s up against players such as Gawn, McEvoy, Grundy who can do that PLUS take many marks around the ground - or win plenty of the ball in other ways - and kick goals.

In that sense we go into matches often a midfielder down. That is why I was a Hickey supporter.

The best ruckmen are footballers first and big guys second, and Billy’s yet to show he’s much of a footballer. I’d be rapt, of course, to be proven wrong and hope he does.

If he doesn’t, maybe it’s Marshall, though I thought showed quite a bit as a key forward towards the end of the season and perhaps could become a very good one.

MOST HIT OUTS TO ADVANTAGE 2018
1. Max Gawn (348)

2. Brodie Grundy (267)

3. Todd Goldstein (240)

It's Max Gawn and then a big gap/daylight ... as far as hitouts to advantage go.
Despite this, the Demons averaged only 5 more clearances per game over 2018 (38 to 33) compared to us, and we were the bottom team in clearances... and really what does 5 more clearances amount to compared to the 350 or so possessions in a game .., and I'm not even sure if you could even credit these extra 5 clearances to Max Gawn's extra hitouts to advantage, anyway??
Ruckmen need to be footballers first and foremost ... kick 15 goals a year, take important game-saving marks, gain metres for their team.

Correct. Bill Longer isn't capable of that unfortunately and Hickey was below par as well. Lewis is an unknown and Marshall is a forward. A ruckman has to be able to contribute and take marks around the ground, isn't that obvious? Longer has to be competitive in all aspects of the game, we hope so. It can make a big difference especially if some of our much touted midfielders benefit. Gawn is one of the best players in the game, just because they didn't get to the GF was not his fault. Weak teams can often win the clearances and after they win them, then what? No doubt someone will come up with a team that won a GF without a top ruckman but I think it would be rare.

[Cairnsman]

Of course, right? Skill, game smarts etc., I am asking because of Jake Niall’s flippant joke in the Age earlier in the week, “While the draft wasn’t great entertainment — it was slower than St Kilda’s midfield (prompting Xavier Ellis to quip that top pick Sam Walsh would be a free agent by the time it ended) — there were some important questions raised” Of course it’s a joke, but seriously, if we are slow, or even perceived to be slow, we can’t just make everybody fast (unless we use stimulants) so it seems we have to develop a strategy. It’s easy to say nothing worked in 2018, but it is possible that things might have been even worse, so I wonder, did you see any evidence of us adopting and even succeeding as a ‘slow midfield’? Also, what other teams have ‘slow midfields’ and how are they coping?

I'm really attracted to this type of discussion because it appeals to my interest in data interrogation. And so if you subscribe to the scientific approach you start of by declaring, "if you can't measure it, then you can't manage it".

How is speed objectively and accurately measured in AFL?

Understanding how and what is measured allows you to unpack the layers and find problems and solutions.

Perception can be everything but it also can lead to false understanding or decision making.