On the Couch- brilliant

[ss1986]

Good watch.

Essentially failed every point of their 2014 5-point plan. Finals by 2017, Top 4 by 2018, 50,000 members (incl 10,000 in NZ), big fish free agent by 2016, flag by 2020

Roos said that the bottom out strategy was destined to fail bc it didnt count 2 expansion teams, and free agency (and the fact free agents want to go to strong clubs)

Of the last 22 no.1 draft picks, they have played a combined 215 seasons; its only produced 1 brownlow medallist (Cooney) and only 15 best and fairest years out of the 215, of which Riewoldt was 6 of them.

Showed footage of McCartin and Bruce 20m away from Jack Steven bursting through a pack and having no one to kick to bc they are way too close.

McCartin is being asked to be an up and down forward which he doesnt have the engine for- he should be stay at home, out of the goalsquare.

19,000 fans; not good times.



All in all- still sticks out like dogs balls that the fish rots from the head, and Finnis has a hell of a lot to answer for.

[MC Gusto]

Interesting

[Trump]

Finnis has got it so so wrong for so long and richo is signed for two more but if we dont punt them both we may well be playing in front of 20k every week and losing players to other clubs soon. Problem how u going to convince finnis and richo to go if they the ones makong the decisons. Im just not even interested in the footy this year which is so dissapointing coz been so.patient expecting good things but pfft

[spert]

Good watch.

Essentially failed every point of their 2014 5-point plan. Finals by 2017, Top 4 by 2018, 50,000 members (incl 10,000 in NZ), big fish free agent by 2016, flag by 2020

Roos said that the bottom out strategy was destined to fail bc it didnt count 2 expansion teams, and free agency (and the fact free agents want to go to strong clubs)

Of the last 22 no.1 draft picks, they have played a combined 215 seasons; its only produced 1 brownlow medallist (Cooney) and only 15 best and fairest years out of the 215, of which Riewoldt was 6 of them.

Showed footage of McCartin and Bruce 20m away from Jack Steven bursting through a pack and having no one to kick to bc they are way too close.

McCartin is being asked to be an up and down forward which he doesnt have the engine for- he should be stay at home, out of the goalsquare.

19,000 fans; not good times.



All in all- still sticks out like dogs balls that the fish rots from the head, and Finnis has a hell of a lot to answer for.

higher up the tree than Finnis

[Zed]

A club full of good blokes, but no smart footy brains off field.
Apart from maybe the latest draft crop, we don’t have anyone who can consistently hit a target under pressure.
Destined to drift in the wilderness for the next 5 years.
The race is on to see whether it’s us or the Kangas who relocate/merge/fold first.

[Jacks Back]

Good watch.

Essentially failed every point of their 2014 5-point plan. Finals by 2017, Top 4 by 2018, 50,000 members (incl 10,000 in NZ), big fish free agent by 2016, flag by 2020

Roos said that the bottom out strategy was destined to fail bc it didnt count 2 expansion teams, and free agency (and the fact free agents want to go to strong clubs)

Of the last 22 no.1 draft picks, they have played a combined 215 seasons; its only produced 1 brownlow medallist (Cooney) and only 15 best and fairest years out of the 215, of which Riewoldt was 6 of them.

Showed footage of McCartin and Bruce 20m away from Jack Steven bursting through a pack and having no one to kick to bc they are way too close.

McCartin is being asked to be an up and down forward which he doesnt have the engine for- he should be stay at home, out of the goalsquare.

19,000 fans; not good times.



All in all- still sticks out like dogs balls that the fish rots from the head, and Finnis has a hell of a lot to answer for.

That was a scathing attack on our football club but it was spot on.

They said there is no point bottoming out for the number one draft pick because not too many of them have ever done too much (apart from Rooey). That was a flawed plan thought up by Pelican and co and based on the Hawks model of 2004 when there were 16 teams and no free agency. The better strategy was to top up like the Cats, Swans and Hawks did.

Plus our forward "structure" sucks!!

[degruch]

To be fair though, topping up was what got us where we were in 2012, and I'm not sure there was anything deliberate about the timing of our plan to 'bottom out'...who'd deliberately pick years of compromised drafts as the point at which you'd formulate a strategy of replenishing your list with highly rated young talent? On top of the Suns and the Giants, Melbourne were also being gifted high draft picks and Brisbane embarked on their quest to be the crappiest club in the land. The biggest villain of the piece IMO is FA.

[CarlD]

Without going into specifics they also had a general dig at the recruiters.

One could almost imagine the On The Couch guys used Saintsational as their research "source"

[saintsRrising]

Good watch.

Essentially failed every point of their 2014 5-point plan.

Yes as discussed late last year:

St Kilda Strategic Plan 2014-18- We need to get a move on!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94046&hilit=strategic+plan

[saintsRrising]

. The biggest villain of the piece IMO is FA.

I fully agree and as I have posted many times over a number of years that:
1/ the club vastly overrated its ability to actually land QUALITY Free agents.
2/ that QUALITY FA's mainly go to successful clubs

To actually have a plan where to achieve it you had to land quality FA's at the end of it was madness as there is no way you can guarantee that you can achieve this.


Other major strategic flaws include chasing rucks and key position players at the expense of quality mids. This was made worse by us using good picks on Talls that had n ot actually shown much in Longer, Hicky and most especially Tom Lee.

Rucks can be picked up ONCE you are threatening for a flag. They are not what you chase in the early days of a rebuild. History has shown for some time now that the premiership Teams have gone out late and gaining their rucks in the main.

Young Talls are high risk of not working out. Young mids are much more likely. Our over emphasis on young talls was poor. Look at our rucks now where it seems that the cheapest of all of them in Marshall (Pick 10 in the 2016 Rookie Draft)may well be our preferred ruck by seasons end.

No reading the trends. In an era where you need to have good skills and some line breaking pace players the club has continually gained players with neither.

[congorozides]

10,000 NZ members.
That is actually quite comical.
I guess we didn't actually get 10.
Having lived in NZ for an unfortunate period I could have told them that for free. That was never going to work.

[To the top]

The AFL is compromised by the differing resources of Clubs, the reliance of the AFL on the success of those well resourced and well supported Clubs, father/son which gave advantage to certain Clubs, compromised Drafts because of entry Clubs and now Free Agency where players will seek to transfer to well resourced, successful Clubs to the detriment of struggling Clubs and now the prospect of a mid season Draft said to benefit struggling Clubs when the opposite will occur

This results from power and influence at the AFL Board Table with a number of Clubs compromised because they rely on AFL handouts to survive

It is a toxic mix from the top down - and Clubs such as St Kilda will struggle to survive

The structural damage is just too deep and too entrenched

The experience St Kilda rely on in attempting to become competitive is now Gilbert, Geary, Armitage returning from injury and Brown - so those Drafted with high picks are being asked to accept a responsibility with no relief because none of those experienced players would command a spot in any other side

The danger is that Free Agency and a mid season Draft further destroys the St Kilda list as talented youth depart looking for playing success

Under 20,000 last weekend was indicative of the problems - and particularly given the debt the Club has courtesy of Docklands

High Draft picks are players who performed at Under 18 level in the lead up to being drafted

And if they are then joining a Club with such a paucity of experienced talent (and none at St Kilda now) the on field problems escalate to the detriment of the competition

The AFL does not understand the damage it has done to the competition and the interest in it by pandering to who it panders to stoking egos of people with no interest in the game

[iwantmeseats]

I wasn’t aware of the NZ member thing,or at least forgot about it. LOL!!! Absolute kindergarten fantasy stuff. The amount of failure in all those points made in 14 is staggering. Didn’t come within a bulls roar!

[To the top]

And to add it could be argued that we peaked at precisely the wrong time, confronted by father/son advantage and ahead of free agency to sustain the required talent - then we attempt to rebuild in compromised Drafts courtesy of the entry Clubs

The first priority is to stabilise the financial status of the Club, compromised as it is by debt and no benefactors

Then an administration that is above market benchmarks appointing to the Football Department such that we have opportunity to improve on field performance by supporting the talented youth we have - and before we burn them out because of the responsibility being placed on young shoulders

[SemperFidelis]

To be fair though, topping up was what got us where we were in 2012, and I'm not sure there was anything deliberate about the timing of our plan to 'bottom out'...who'd deliberately pick years of compromised drafts as the point at which you'd formulate a strategy of replenishing your list with highly rated young talent? On top of the Suns and the Giants, Melbourne were also being gifted high draft picks and Brisbane embarked on their quest to be the crappiest club in the land. The biggest villain of the piece IMO is FA.

Good, balanced response.

I watched Roos and with the exception of the discussion about deciding where Paddy should play, it was just a kick em when they’re down take down.

That might make some feel better but what I really wanted to know was what Roos thought were solutions we can act on tomorrow. Focusing on where hindsight says we went wrong 5 years ago isn’t too damned helpful.

I’m happy to hear someone’s view that the CEO or the coach should go, but he didn’t say that.

The “blueprint” was cast by the Board; if the (remaining) Board members should be cast out in disgrace I’d also be happy to hear that. But he didn’t say that.

I never believed in sacrificing our heart and soul for the draft, but it’s
done. FA has screwed us at both ends.

We have to move forward, and do the best we can this year with the cattle we have. And we can do way better than we’ve shown.

So let’s get the forward structure right and have the mids hit them on the chest running into space. I’ll be happy to watch any pundit who offers up a solution we can implement right now for that.

[mr six o'clock]

The media bashing the saints again .
It's not an AFL season unless this happens.

A win on the weekend will shut this shite up
12 or so more wins for the season and these same vankers will be crapping on about how they picked us to improve on last year .

Yes I know this probably won't happen.
But we are only 3 rounds into the year .
And if were able to score a remarkable win on sunday we'd have one more win than geelong.
A team that most of the media spends litres of seminal ejaculate on each week.

[Teflon]

The AFL is compromised by the differing resources of Clubs, the reliance of the AFL on the success of those well resourced and well supported Clubs, father/son which gave advantage to certain Clubs, compromised Drafts because of entry Clubs and now Free Agency where players will seek to transfer to well resourced, successful Clubs to the detriment of struggling Clubs and now the prospect of a mid season Draft said to benefit struggling Clubs when the opposite will occur

This results from power and influence at the AFL Board Table with a number of Clubs compromised because they rely on AFL handouts to survive

It is a toxic mix from the top down - and Clubs such as St Kilda will struggle to survive

The structural damage is just too deep and too entrenched

The experience St Kilda rely on in attempting to become competitive is now Gilbert, Geary, Armitage returning from injury and Brown - so those Drafted with high picks are being asked to accept a responsibility with no relief because none of those experienced players would command a spot in any other side

The danger is that Free Agency and a mid season Draft further destroys the St Kilda list as talented youth depart looking for playing success

Under 20,000 last weekend was indicative of the problems - and particularly given the debt the Club has courtesy of Docklands

High Draft picks are players who performed at Under 18 level in the lead up to being drafted

And if they are then joining a Club with such a paucity of experienced talent (and none at St Kilda now) the on field problems escalate to the detriment of the competition

The AFL does not understand the damage it has done to the competition and the interest in it by pandering to who it panders to stoking egos of people with no interest in the game

so true well said.

[vacuous space]

I don't mind being behind where we'd like to be. Just be honest about where we're at. It's clearly a development year. Honour that.

Nice to see Steele get 41 disposals and 13 clearances for Sandy on the weekend, but why does he get sub-70% game time when he's playing with the Saints? Why does Richo keep not playing him in the middle? I cannot begin to understand how Stevens was favoured over Steele and Dunstan in the first couple of rounds.

We've had years of the Armo/Ross/Steven onball division now and it's clear they're no better than average as a unit. If we're honest, they're probably not even that. We need to develop Dunstan and Steele into the clearance guys. It'd be nice to see Acres, Billings, Gresham and/or Sinclair given a real chance to take the next step, rather than a few token centre bounces. Using high-end talent on the periphery is a luxury that teams with better onball units can afford.

And if Battle is outperforming McCartin, play Battle. Again, I don't care if Paddy's behind where we'd like him to be. There's no use pretending he's something he's not. Same with Longer. I really doubt Longer's ever going to justify the second rounder we used on him, let alone the top-ten pick Brisbane used on him. Marshall looks the better player. I really hope we don't see a bad (but expected) loss used as an excuse to restore the old guard.

I think you sell more memberships if you sell us as a developing side than if you pretend we're a finals contender. The big fish aren't coming here unless they have some oddly specific reason. If Richo can genuinely develop young talent, now's the time to do so. Realistically, we're stuck with Richo for years no matter how badly he does. So we'd better hope he isn't just going to run out the next couple of years with delusions of grandeur.

[saintsRrising]

I think you sell more memberships if you sell us as a developing side than if you pretend we're a finals contender. The big fish aren't coming here unless they have some oddly specific reason. If Richo can genuinely develop young talent, now's the time to do so. Realistically, we're stuck with Richo for years no matter how badly he does. So we'd better hope he isn't just going to run out the next couple of years with delusions of grandeur.

Excactly.

The last several seasons we have been neither Arthur or Martha. We have tried to both be a team pushing for Top 4 and a Rebuilding Team with the result that we have done both poorly.

Brown shored up the backline, but to what purpose? He is not the future, and in himself was nowhere enough to make us a Top 4 aspirant. It is but one example of the muddle that the Club is making of List Management at present.

Belatedly they now seem to be giving more priority to youth, but yet the official line is still that we are a flag threat. Confusion reigns, rather than any clear path or direction.

[groupie1]

bit harsh. the Bains strategy was 3 picks inside twenty in consecutive drafts. They almost achieved that 4 yrs running:
Billings, Acres, Dunstan - a successful draft for us
Carlisle, Goddard, Mackenzie - on balance, successful
McCartin, Gresham, and I've forgotten else - a waiting game still
Clark, Coffield this year - surely this was also a successful draft
Add Steele and Freeman as trades - a waiting game, probably evens...

6 wins there. Gresh, Paddy, Goddard, DMac, Freeman the question marks.
And let's be fair: Gresh will probably make it. Freeman was always a risk.

I feel playing DMac and Goddard is important now to see if they will make it or not.

This mirrors the 2001-2003 rebuild, except McCartin is not Roo, and likely never will be.

I reckon it is continued development, retiring the 3 champs (Gears, Armo, Gilbert), clearing out the cloggers.... use a sub-5 draft pick to get double sub-20 draft picks and use them... then open the cheque book and sign 10-year deals with guns. The guns will go to s*** clubs if the money is right (GWS a case in point: Scully, Mumford, etc.)

[Joffa Burns]

A lot of hindsight mastery from Paul Roos last night IMO.

I don't recall him coming out in 2014 - 2017 stating the Saints strategy is wrong or many on here dismissing the plan either.

Obviously it has not worked but they formulated a bold plan and went for it.
Better to do that than proceed aimlessly.

Now it's time to play the first half of the season, give the team the chance to turn it around and if not devise a new plan.

[barneyboyz]

To be fair though, topping up was what got us where we were in 2012, and I'm not sure there was anything deliberate about the timing of our plan to 'bottom out'...who'd deliberately pick years of compromised drafts as the point at which you'd formulate a strategy of replenishing your list with highly rated young talent? On top of the Suns and the Giants, Melbourne were also being gifted high draft picks and Brisbane embarked on their quest to be the crappiest club in the land. The biggest villain of the piece IMO is FA.

Good, balanced response.

I watched Roos and with the exception of the discussion about deciding where Paddy should play, it was just a kick em when they’re down take down.

That might make some feel better but what I really wanted to know was what Roos thought were solutions we can act on tomorrow. Focusing on where hindsight says we went wrong 5 years ago isn’t too damned helpful.

I’m happy to hear someone’s view that the CEO or the coach should go, but he didn’t say that.

The “blueprint” was cast by the Board; if the (remaining) Board members should be cast out in disgrace I’d also be happy to hear that. But he didn’t say that.

I never believed in sacrificing our heart and soul for the draft, but it’s
done. FA has screwed us at both ends.

We have to move forward, and do the best we can this year with the cattle we have. And we can do way better than we’ve shown.

So let’s get the forward structure right and have the mids hit them on the chest running into space. I’ll be happy to watch any pundit who offers up a solution we can implement right now for that.

Yes and no. It must amaze some of these people at times how we go about things. To how we consistently mess things up in a world that shouldn't be all that hard to understand. I mean it isn't anything that some on here haven't been banging on about for some time now, so even supporters seem to be able to see.

Interesting that he even gave the Dee's a clip on the way through, and was unusually supportive of our team whilst playing them at Casey. Does he want a job???

FWIW I reckon our side is now in a team-wide form slump, and we ain't got a Roo that can help. Time for our mids to stand up. It's now or never

[spert]

Just don't know who in the midfield is going to assume the role of leader. We suffer from having a captain and a coach who are nice guys but on and off the field this season I don't see hunger, passion, anger..the closest I've seen was Carlise going crook at an umpire over a mark. After Geary kicked his goal the other night, he just smiled and ran back up the ground like we were 5 goals up - should have grabbed those around him and revved everyone up and shown some real passion and anger, not a smile.

[portosaint]

Good watch.

Essentially failed every point of their 2014 5-point plan. Finals by 2017, Top 4 by 2018, 50,000 members (incl 10,000 in NZ), big fish free agent by 2016, flag by 2020

Roos said that the bottom out strategy was destined to fail bc it didnt count 2 expansion teams, and free agency (and the fact free agents want to go to strong clubs)

Of the last 22 no.1 draft picks, they have played a combined 215 seasons; its only produced 1 brownlow medallist (Cooney) and only 15 best and fairest years out of the 215, of which Riewoldt was 6 of them.

Showed footage of McCartin and Bruce 20m away from Jack Steven bursting through a pack and having no one to kick to bc they are way too close.

McCartin is being asked to be an up and down forward which he doesnt have the engine for- he should be stay at home, out of the goalsquare.

19,000 fans; not good times.



All in all- still sticks out like dogs balls that the fish rots from the head, and Finnis has a hell of a lot to answer for.

Jaxons mentioned this in another thread. This is our "structure." Hence why Jack Sinclair did circles on half back until he got pinged. Thats our coach

[Impatient Sainter]

Pelchen is no longer at the club for a reason. After fleecing the club $$$ as a purported list expert they worked out he was a fraud and had sold them a lemon.

The issue lies that the club continued to struggle with their drafting. We have been screaming for quality mids for years yet continued to draft everyone who wasnt. Trout seems to have finally got the message in last years draft but Clark, Coffield, Paton & Langlands will need time.

So how do we rapidly fix the significant holes in our list? Saints are going to have to be ruthless with their trading and think laterally with their drafting.