ARe we Norf MArk !!?

[Drake Huggins]

With all the conjecture about our future, I'd like to propose a rather unpopular proposition. Are we Norf, Mark 2? That is, Norf was top of the ladder after round 11 last year, 10-1, but lost 11 of the next 13 to finish eighth. Another 17 losses this year and their record is seven wins from their last 35 starts. Hardly flattering. The thing that seems to stand out is that in that time, they lost 5 absolute stars. Dal Santo, Wells, Petrie, Harvey and Firrito. The loss of class and experience really told. We've lost Fisher, Dempster, Riewoldt and Montagna in the past 12 months. Are we heading the same way as they are, a number of years anchored to the bottom? Like us, they couldn't attract any talent, even mediocrity to their club. I think we may be in danger of doing a Norf and spending our next 5 years doing another rebuild. With the incompetent numpty, Elshyte and the loss of Bains, we are in no position to right the ship. I want to believe that we have the talent, but our performance this year and the lack of stars on the list, tell me we are in for a lot of pain over the next five years as we rebuild again. And again. If we get rid of the numpty, Elshyte, we might have a chance, but his record in our so-called rebuilding phase gives me no cause for confidence. 2025 is out next best chance under the current regime.

[CQ SAINT]

When was the last time we were on top of the ladder and in that time how much did Dempster Riewoldt and Montagna improve? Your proposition doesnt seem to fit too well really IMO. We should have played finals this year. Roo, Joey and Dempster contibuted very little to that really. I find it hard to predict anything but an upward scale from here. Not too sure all the Elshaugh hate is fair either when you remove the sky is falling theory.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

With all the conjecture about our future, I'd like to propose a rather unpopular proposition. Are we Norf, Mark 2? That is, Norf was top of the ladder after round 11 last year, 10-1, but lost 11 of the next 13 to finish eighth. Another 17 losses this year and their record is seven wins from their last 35 starts. Hardly flattering. The thing that seems to stand out is that in that time, they lost 5 absolute stars. Dal Santo, Wells, Petrie, Harvey and Firrito. The loss of class and experience really told. We've lost Fisher, Dempster, Riewoldt and Montagna in the past 12 months. Are we heading the same way as they are, a number of years anchored to the bottom? Like us, they couldn't attract any talent, even mediocrity to their club. I think we may be in danger of doing a Norf and spending our next 5 years doing another rebuild. With the incompetent numpty, Elshyte and the loss of Bains, we are in no position to right the ship. I want to believe that we have the talent, but our performance this year and the lack of stars on the list, tell me we are in for a lot of pain over the next five years as we rebuild again. And again. If we get rid of the numpty, Elshyte, we might have a chance, but his record in our so-called rebuilding phase gives me no cause for confidence. 2025 is out next best chance under the current regime.

It's a very real danger. A poor showing in 2018 and the wheels will truly have come off. Plenty
of sackings and another rebuild.

[magnifisaint]

I don't agree with anything written on here. All knee jerk stuff.

[bigcarl]

This is the start of the post-Riewoldt era. It opens up space for a lot of growth and opportunities. No denying he is one of our greatest players, but I can see only positives from his decision to hang them up. Exciting times imo

[Darth Vader]

With all the conjecture about our future, I'd like to propose a rather unpopular proposition. Are we Norf, Mark 2? That is, Norf was top of the ladder after round 11 last year, 10-1, but lost 11 of the next 13 to finish eighth. Another 17 losses this year and their record is seven wins from their last 35 starts. Hardly flattering. The thing that seems to stand out is that in that time, they lost 5 absolute stars. Dal Santo, Wells, Petrie, Harvey and Firrito. The loss of class and experience really told. We've lost Fisher, Dempster, Riewoldt and Montagna in the past 12 months. Are we heading the same way as they are, a number of years anchored to the bottom? Like us, they couldn't attract any talent, even mediocrity to their club. I think we may be in danger of doing a Norf and spending our next 5 years doing another rebuild. With the incompetent numpty, Elshyte and the loss of Bains, we are in no position to right the ship. I want to believe that we have the talent, but our performance this year and the lack of stars on the list, tell me we are in for a lot of pain over the next five years as we rebuild again. And again. If we get rid of the numpty, Elshyte, we might have a chance, but his record in our so-called rebuilding phase gives me no cause for confidence. 2025 is out next best chance under the current regime.

It’s the other way around actually. They made prelims, couldn’t deliver, lost their stars and have fallen away. 5 years earlier we made GFs, couldn’t deliver, lost stars (Milne, Goddard, Dal, Kosi, Baker, Blake etc) and fell away. Only diff is we made GFs, they didn’t. Now we’re 3-4 years ahead of them.

[the dome]

Stating the obvious I know. It's been 16 years I believe since the Saints had 2 picks within the top 10 in a National Draft.
This rare situation our drafting brains trust find themselves in will either produce a very significant injection of positive momentum into this young group or it may deliver a just ok or somewhat mediocre drafting season.
In other words this is a pressure situation which again is stating the obvious.
Fingers crossed this end.

[saynta]

This is the start of the post-Riewoldt era. It opens up space for a lot of growth and opportunities. No denying he is one of our greatest players, but I can see only positives from his decision to hang them up. Exciting times imo

Plus one

[Drake Huggins]

When was the last time we were on top of the ladder and in that time how much did Dempster Riewoldt and Montagna improve? Your proposition doesnt seem to fit too well really IMO. We should have played finals this year. Roo, Joey and Dempster contibuted very little to that really. I find it hard to predict anything but an upward scale from here. Not too sure all the Elshaugh hate is fair either when you remove the sky is falling theory.

I would suggest that Roo was still our best forward in the first half of the year. Montagna was very good after Brereton put a rocket up him. The point is, all those I named, including the NM players were all past their best, but their experience and leadership couldn't be underestimated. They will leave a massive void. Hopefully, several players will step up. As for Elshaug, I base my low opinion of him on his record, nothing more. He is acknowledged in the industry as a nice guy, but with about as much substance as fairy floss. Go back to the 2011 draft and look at each successive year. Wasted picks, although he did have an albatross around his neck early on, I mean a pelican, which didn't help, but the poor to average decisions just keep coming. Thirteen top 25 picks since he took over and not a single elite performer amongst them. Ross is A grade, and hopefully, Billings and Gresh will be too, but name other potential elites he's brought to the club with his drafting? That is a dreadful record. The 2014 draft is his Magnus Opus, McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie and Lonie. How's that little supposed "bonanza" looking atm? The sad truth is, for one reason or another, none of them were in the side at the end of the year, and Lonie has played the most number of games out of that lot. I know we all hope Paddy and Hugh come good, but grabbing Logan Austin, wouldn't fill Hugh with great confidence.

I desperately want to be proven wrong about this, but it's not looking great when you look at the available evidence. Whilst I think we'll be around the same mark next year, we've used up six years of early picks to reach a certain level of mediocrity. Melbourne, Richmond and the dogs have all outperformed us at the draft in recent years. The sky isn't falling. Yet. After the first two games next year, which we should win, we run into Adelaide, Geelong, GWS and Hawthorn in Tassie. If McCartin, Billings et. al. don't step up it will be back to a very blank drawing board. Plan "A" clearly hasn't come off. I wait with bated breath to see what plan "B" is. A good start would be to replace Elshaug with the Jason Cripps. The Crippa has done a pretty good job on the list at the Power.

[saynta]

When was the last time we were on top of the ladder and in that time how much did Dempster Riewoldt and Montagna improve? Your proposition doesnt seem to fit too well really IMO. We should have played finals this year. Roo, Joey and Dempster contibuted very little to that really. I find it hard to predict anything but an upward scale from here. Not too sure all the Elshaugh hate is fair either when you remove the sky is falling theory.

I would suggest that Roo was still our best forward in the first half of the year. Montagna was very good after Brereton put a rocket up him. The point is, all those I named, including the NM players were all past their best, but their experience and leadership couldn't be underestimated. They will leave a massive void. Hopefully, several players will step up. As for Elshaug, I base my low opinion of him on his record, nothing more. He is acknowledged in the industry as a nice guy, but with about as much substance as fairy floss. Go back to the 2011 draft and look at each successive year. Wasted picks, although he did have an albatross around his neck early on, I mean a pelican, which didn't help, but the poor to average decisions just keep coming. Thirteen top 25 picks since he took over and not a single elite performer amongst them. Ross is A grade, and hopefully, Billings and Gresh will be too, but name other potential elites he's brought to the club with his drafting? That is a dreadful record. The 2014 draft is his Magnus Opus, McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie and Lonie. How's that little supposed "bonanza" looking atm? The sad truth is, for one reason or another, none of them were in the side at the end of the year, and Lonie has played the most number of games out of that lot. I know we all hope Paddy and Hugh come good, but grabbing Logan Austin, wouldn't fill Hugh with great confidence.

I desperately want to be proven wrong about this, but it's not looking great when you look at the available evidence. Whilst I think we'll be around the same mark next year, we've used up six years of early picks to reach a certain level of mediocrity. Melbourne, Richmond and the dogs have all outperformed us at the draft in recent years. The sky isn't falling. Yet. After the first two games next year, which we should win, we run into Adelaide, Geelong, GWS and Hawthorn in Tassie. If McCartin, Billings et. al. don't step up it will be back to a very blank drawing board. Plan "A" clearly hasn't come off. I wait with bated breath to see what plan "B" is. A good start would be to replace Elshaug with the Jason Cripps. The Crippa has done a pretty good job on the list at the Power.

Yep, that's why they just dumped a third of their list and have been replacing them with everyone else's cast offs.

Sorry mate, but that is the truth,

[CQ SAINT]

All due respect to 3 club champs but Dempster wasnt going to get much game time, Roo was supposed to be running off the wing through the midfield and Joey was coasting until Brereton called him out and when he pushed himself he went down injured.

Bad kicking by some inexperienced players and some freakish medical issues with Paddy (name another case we could have predicted this outcome from) most probably meant we didnt play finals. If we had of the climate and height of the sky would be vastly different.

11 Ross at 25 - rating A+
12 Wright 24 unlucky with injury, White 25 dud. rating C-
13 Billings 3 Dunstan 18 Acres 19 rating A
14 Paddy 1 Goddard 21 McKenzie 22 rating B (could still improve dramatically.
15 Gresham 18 rating A+
16 Long 25

I count 11 picks under 25. 6 of which are starting 22.
2 were top 5 and all the rest were all 18 - 25.
Its too early to rate Trouts pick for Long
Wright Paddy and Goddard have been injury ravished and McKenzie is still a chance.
Gresh Billings and Ross will be A grade.
White is the only dud.

Your assessment of the draft picks is a tad bit unjustified.

[takeaway]

All due respect to 3 club champs but Dempster wasnt going to get much game time, Roo was supposed to be running off the wing through the midfield and Joey was coasting until Brereton called him out and when he pushed himself he went down injured.

Bad kicking by some inexperienced players and some freakish medical issues with Paddy (name another case we could have predicted this outcome from) most probably meant we didnt play finals. If we had of the climate and height of the sky would be vastly different.

11 Ross at 25 - rating A+
12 Wright 24 unlucky with injury, White 25 dud. rating C-
13 Billings 3 Dunstan 18 Acres 19 rating A
14 Paddy 1 Goddard 21 McKenzie 22 rating B (could still improve dramatically.
15 Gresham 18 rating A+
16 Long 25

I count 11 picks under 25. 6 of which are starting 22.
2 were top 5 and all the rest were all 18 - 25.
Its too early to rate Trouts pick for Long
Wright Paddy and Goddard have been injury ravished and McKenzie is still a chance.
Gresh Billings and Ross will be A grade.
White is the only dud.

Your assessment of the draft picks is a tad bit unjustified.

Agree. I can't see any problem with Trout and drafting. Port have drafted in matures because they believe they are right in the window. Time will tell whether they have done the right thing. We are not as advanced as Port hence stuck to our guns with a strong presence in the draft.
Cannot see any correlation between us and North's situation.

Probably a better comparison would be Melbourne or Carlton - we have certainly improved at a much quicker rate than them.

[Linton Lodger]

However one rates our list, whether you think its good, bad or somewhere in the middle, these are the facts of our 2017 season.

There is no dispute that our kicking for goal was atrocious and by far the worst in the league. This was not purely a technical issue, because it afflicted players such as Billings and Gresham who are elite by foot. Billings despite having a sublime foot, was one of our worst offenders.

Ironically Melbourne's kicking for goal was the second worst, but still way better than ours. Forget par, if our kicking for goal had been at Melbourne's level, then we would have won anywhere between 2 to 4 more games, not to mention our percentage could have been 10-15% higher.

That would have seen us finish with 13 to 15 wins and a percentage of around 110 to 115%. Not bad for a developing list that are still nowhere near their peak.

On Riewoldt & Montagna. I don't believe that Joey was a massive factor, particularly with Jake Carlisle steadly getting better as our defensive General and Riewoldt probably had the least impact of his entire career (excluding 2001). Not saying his season was poor, just not as good as most of his others.

I've no doubt that we're on an upward trajectory.

[Proph3t of egan]

However one rates our list, whether you think its good, bad or somewhere in the middle, these are the facts of our 2017 season.

There is no dispute that our kicking for goal was atrocious and by far the worst in the league. This was not purely a technical issue, because it afflicted players such as Billings and Gresham who are elite by foot. Billings despite having a sublime foot, was one of our worst offenders.

Ironically Melbourne's kicking for goal was the second worst, but still way better than ours. Forget par, if our kicking for goal had been at Melbourne's level, then we would have won anywhere between 2 to 4 more games, not to mention our percentage could have been 10-15% higher.

That would have seen us finish with 13 to 15 wins and a percentage of around 110 to 115%. Not bad for a developing list that are still nowhere near their peak.

On Riewoldt & Montagna. I don't believe that Joey was a massive factor, particularly with Jake Carlisle steadly getting better as our defensive General and Riewoldt probably had the least impact of his entire career (excluding 2001). Not saying his season was poor, just not as good as most of his others.

I've no doubt that we're on an upward trajectory.

Well put. There are obviously some problems such as goal kicking, and maintaining our game plan when the pressure is on, but overall, our list is as healthy as its been in a fair while. Soon the rest of the comp will realise that too

[Sainternist]

OP raises some fair points. I don't think we're in quite as bad a situation as Norf, but not too far from it. I agree that we'll be another 5 years from getting a chance of being a premiership threat. I think five years of mid table mediocrity is more likely than bottoming out again, but there is always a danger of going back down to the cellar.

So why have we hung on to Trout since he hasn't proved to be great at recruiting since joining us 6 or so years ago?

[Trev from the Bush]

You can tell it is off-season by the level of deep navel gazing going on here.

Drake Huggins, you are a serious Saintsational contributor.....BUT...........you posteth too much. Been a member for 33 days and averaging 7.79 posts per day. Turn the computer off, mate, and leave the club and the players to plan for 2018. Just because nothing is happening in this sleapy time of the year doesn't mean you have to create imaginary problems!

Now, go and speak to somebody about your forum addiction!

[Drake Huggins]

All due respect to 3 club champs but Dempster wasnt going to get much game time, Roo was supposed to be running off the wing through the midfield and Joey was coasting until Brereton called him out and when he pushed himself he went down injured.

Bad kicking by some inexperienced players and some freakish medical issues with Paddy (name another case we could have predicted this outcome from) most probably meant we didnt play finals. If we had of the climate and height of the sky would be vastly different.

11 Ross at 25 - rating A+
12 Wright 24 unlucky with injury, White 25 dud. rating C-
13 Billings 3 Dunstan 18 Acres 19 rating A
14 Paddy 1 Goddard 21 McKenzie 22 rating B (could still improve dramatically.
15 Gresham 18 rating A+
16 Long 25

I count 11 picks under 25. 6 of which are starting 22.
2 were top 5 and all the rest were all 18 - 25.
Its too early to rate Trouts pick for Long
Wright Paddy and Goddard have been injury ravished and McKenzie is still a chance.
Gresh Billings and Ross will be A grade.
White is the only dud.

Your assessment of the draft picks is a tad bit unjustified.

One, three and five. 12 and 13 and 20. The decision to nab Carlisle was a beauty. I think you'll find that deal was Bains' idea and we got Gresh. Now that's good recruiting. Other than that, we've pissed away some fabulous picks and opportunities. FWIW, I think White might actually turn out OK. We're in furious agreement on most of these. We should be way more advanced, list wise, given the hand we've had.

[Drake Huggins]

When was the last time we were on top of the ladder and in that time how much did Dempster Riewoldt and Montagna improve? Your proposition doesnt seem to fit too well really IMO. We should have played finals this year. Roo, Joey and Dempster contibuted very little to that really. I find it hard to predict anything but an upward scale from here. Not too sure all the Elshaugh hate is fair either when you remove the sky is falling theory.

I would suggest that Roo was still our best forward in the first half of the year. Montagna was very good after Brereton put a rocket up him. The point is, all those I named, including the NM players were all past their best, but their experience and leadership couldn't be underestimated. They will leave a massive void. Hopefully, several players will step up. As for Elshaug, I base my low opinion of him on his record, nothing more. He is acknowledged in the industry as a nice guy, but with about as much substance as fairy floss. Go back to the 2011 draft and look at each successive year. Wasted picks, although he did have an albatross around his neck early on, I mean a pelican, which didn't help, but the poor to average decisions just keep coming. Thirteen top 25 picks since he took over and not a single elite performer amongst them. Ross is A grade, and hopefully, Billings and Gresh will be too, but name other potential elites he's brought to the club with his drafting? That is a dreadful record. The 2014 draft is his Magnus Opus, McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie and Lonie. How's that little supposed "bonanza" looking atm? The sad truth is, for one reason or another, none of them were in the side at the end of the year, and Lonie has played the most number of games out of that lot. I know we all hope Paddy and Hugh come good, but grabbing Logan Austin, wouldn't fill Hugh with great confidence.

I desperately want to be proven wrong about this, but it's not looking great when you look at the available evidence. Whilst I think we'll be around the same mark next year, we've used up six years of early picks to reach a certain level of mediocrity. Melbourne, Richmond and the dogs have all outperformed us at the draft in recent years. The sky isn't falling. Yet. After the first two games next year, which we should win, we run into Adelaide, Geelong, GWS and Hawthorn in Tassie. If McCartin, Billings et. al. don't step up it will be back to a very blank drawing board. Plan "A" clearly hasn't come off. I wait with bated breath to see what plan "B" is. A good start would be to replace Elshaug with the Jason Cripps. The Crippa has done a pretty good job on the list at the Power.

Yep, that's why they just dumped a third of their list and have been replacing them with everyone else's cast offs.

Sorry mate, but that is the truth,

You make a valid point, saynta, but I think Rockliff, Motflop and Watts would walk into our best 22. The others? Not so much. And we would've got the lot for one second round pick.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

I was startled by a trade report in one of the papers a month or so ago.

Said St Kilda might struggled to recruit free agents because Carlton was viewed as ahead of the Saints.

That's right.

Carlton has been recruiting better than St Kilda.

You might not agree with it, but that's one objective opinion.

[Drake Huggins]

All due respect to 3 club champs but Dempster wasnt going to get much game time, Roo was supposed to be running off the wing through the midfield and Joey was coasting until Brereton called him out and when he pushed himself he went down injured.

Bad kicking by some inexperienced players and some freakish medical issues with Paddy (name another case we could have predicted this outcome from) most probably meant we didnt play finals. If we had of the climate and height of the sky would be vastly different.

11 Ross at 25 - rating A+
12 Wright 24 unlucky with injury, White 25 dud. rating C-
13 Billings 3 Dunstan 18 Acres 19 rating A
14 Paddy 1 Goddard 21 McKenzie 22 rating B (could still improve dramatically.
15 Gresham 18 rating A+
16 Long 25

I count 11 picks under 25. 6 of which are starting 22.
2 were top 5 and all the rest were all 18 - 25.
Its too early to rate Trouts pick for Long
Wright Paddy and Goddard have been injury ravished and McKenzie is still a chance.
Gresh Billings and Ross will be A grade.
White is the only dud.

Your assessment of the draft picks is a tad bit unjustified.

Agree. I can't see any problem with Trout and drafting. Port have drafted in matures because they believe they are right in the window. Time will tell whether they have done the right thing. We are not as advanced as Port hence stuck to our guns with a strong presence in the draft.
Cannot see any correlation between us and North's situation.

Probably a better comparison would be Melbourne or Carlton - we have certainly improved at a much quicker rate than them.

Of course you can't see a problem, takeaway. Of course you can't. Hilarious.

[CQ SAINT]

All due respect to 3 club champs but Dempster wasnt going to get much game time, Roo was supposed to be running off the wing through the midfield and Joey was coasting until Brereton called him out and when he pushed himself he went down injured.

Bad kicking by some inexperienced players and some freakish medical issues with Paddy (name another case we could have predicted this outcome from) most probably meant we didnt play finals. If we had of the climate and height of the sky would be vastly different.

11 Ross at 25 - rating A+
12 Wright 24 unlucky with injury, White 25 dud. rating C-
13 Billings 3 Dunstan 18 Acres 19 rating A
14 Paddy 1 Goddard 21 McKenzie 22 rating B (could still improve dramatically.
15 Gresham 18 rating A+
16 Long 25

I count 11 picks under 25. 6 of which are starting 22.
2 were top 5 and all the rest were all 18 - 25.
Its too early to rate Trouts pick for Long
Wright Paddy and Goddard have been injury ravished and McKenzie is still a chance.
Gresh Billings and Ross will be A grade.
White is the only dud.

Your assessment of the draft picks is a tad bit unjustified.

One, three and five. 12 and 13 and 20. The decision to nab Carlisle was a beauty. I think you'll find that deal was Bains' idea and we got Gresh. Now that's good recruiting. Other than that, we've pissed away some fabulous picks and opportunities. FWIW, I think White might actually turn out OK. We're in furious agreement on most of these. We should be way more advanced, list wise, given the hand we've had.

I was talking about Spencer White.
Trades are one thing. Strategic directions are another. But the ACTUAL picks we have taken to the draft and the ACTUAL choices we have made with those picks are undeniable and in this case, Trout and co have done a smashing job.
2011 was the GWS draft and 2012 was a last ditched attempt to pry open our premiership window.
Since then Trout, Bains and Richo have worked together and produced excellent results. The next 2 years will tell but most indicators are looking good.
Both the Bulldogs and the Tigers have average lists that came from nowhere to win flags. Im jot too sure we are too far off thst kind of scenario.
What we do with 7 and 8 now and free agency next year are pinnacle.
But, we must play finals in 2018. I believe we can and will.
If we drop our intensity and dont improve our skill levels I will then be very concerned.
For now I am quietly confident.

[supersaints]

Crazy post... Norf is we we were when Ross The Boss left... no decent players in the mid age range.. Norf drafted Dal because they thought they were in the window ... they were seriously wrong.
They are still in the downward spiral , we are on the climb upwards
We now have about the youngest age list... lost if players getting the four to five pre seasons and the sixty game mark were most establish themselves as seasoned AFL players.
The sky's not falling in... quite the opposite
Don't think I've ever seen such a bunch of pessimistic posters as on this forum, your lives must be very sad

[takeaway]

All due respect to 3 club champs but Dempster wasnt going to get much game time, Roo was supposed to be running off the wing through the midfield and Joey was coasting until Brereton called him out and when he pushed himself he went down injured.

Bad kicking by some inexperienced players and some freakish medical issues with Paddy (name another case we could have predicted this outcome from) most probably meant we didnt play finals. If we had of the climate and height of the sky would be vastly different.

11 Ross at 25 - rating A+
12 Wright 24 unlucky with injury, White 25 dud. rating C-
13 Billings 3 Dunstan 18 Acres 19 rating A
14 Paddy 1 Goddard 21 McKenzie 22 rating B (could still improve dramatically.
15 Gresham 18 rating A+
16 Long 25

I count 11 picks under 25. 6 of which are starting 22.
2 were top 5 and all the rest were all 18 - 25.
Its too early to rate Trouts pick for Long
Wright Paddy and Goddard have been injury ravished and McKenzie is still a chance.
Gresh Billings and Ross will be A grade.
White is the only dud.

Your assessment of the draft picks is a tad bit unjustified.

Agree. I can't see any problem with Trout and drafting. Port have drafted in matures because they believe they are right in the window. Time will tell whether they have done the right thing. We are not as advanced as Port hence stuck to our guns with a strong presence in the draft.
Cannot see any correlation between us and North's situation.

Probably a better comparison would be Melbourne or Carlton - we have certainly improved at a much quicker rate than them.

Of course you can't see a problem, takeaway. Of course you can't. Hilarious.

And of course you can, DH, (or WW or GPHB). I guess we have different views. But if there is no real problem, I don't go and try to think up one, however irrelevant, just to keep the posting rate up, as suggested earlier in this thread.

[Jacks Back]

All due respect to 3 club champs but Dempster wasnt going to get much game time, Roo was supposed to be running off the wing through the midfield and Joey was coasting until Brereton called him out and when he pushed himself he went down injured.

Bad kicking by some inexperienced players and some freakish medical issues with Paddy (name another case we could have predicted this outcome from) most probably meant we didnt play finals. If we had of the climate and height of the sky would be vastly different.

11 Ross at 25 - rating A+
12 Wright 24 unlucky with injury, White 25 dud. rating C-
13 Billings 3 Dunstan 18 Acres 19 rating A
14 Paddy 1 Goddard 21 McKenzie 22 rating B (could still improve dramatically.
15 Gresham 18 rating A+
16 Long 25

I count 11 picks under 25. 6 of which are starting 22.
2 were top 5 and all the rest were all 18 - 25.
Its too early to rate Trouts pick for Long
Wright Paddy and Goddard have been injury ravished and McKenzie is still a chance.
Gresh Billings and Ross will be A grade.
White is the only dud.

Your assessment of the draft picks is a tad bit unjustified.

Agree. I can't see any problem with Trout and drafting. Port have drafted in matures because they believe they are right in the window. Time will tell whether they have done the right thing. We are not as advanced as Port hence stuck to our guns with a strong presence in the draft.
Cannot see any correlation between us and North's situation.

Probably a better comparison would be Melbourne or Carlton - we have certainly improved at a much quicker rate than them.

Of course you can't see a problem, takeaway. Of course you can't. Hilarious.

And of course you can, DH, (or WW or GPHB). I guess we have different views. But if there is no real problem, I don't go and try to think up one, however irrelevant, just to keep the posting rate up, as suggested earlier in this thread.

Picking Billings ahead of Bont and the good bloke McCartin ahead of Petraca are mistakes at the moment. I really hope our guys turn out better than who we could have got but some of trouts picks have been really bad. New brooms sweep clean.

[SuperDuper]

With all the conjecture about our future, I'd like to propose a rather unpopular proposition. Are we Norf, Mark 2? That is, Norf was top of the ladder after round 11 last year, 10-1, but lost 11 of the next 13 to finish eighth. Another 17 losses this year and their record is seven wins from their last 35 starts. Hardly flattering. The thing that seems to stand out is that in that time, they lost 5 absolute stars. Dal Santo, Wells, Petrie, Harvey and Firrito. The loss of class and experience really told. We've lost Fisher, Dempster, Riewoldt and Montagna in the past 12 months. Are we heading the same way as they are, a number of years anchored to the bottom? Like us, they couldn't attract any talent, even mediocrity to their club. I think we may be in danger of doing a Norf and spending our next 5 years doing another rebuild. With the incompetent numpty, Elshyte and the loss of Bains, we are in no position to right the ship. I want to believe that we have the talent, but our performance this year and the lack of stars on the list, tell me we are in for a lot of pain over the next five years as we rebuild again. And again. If we get rid of the numpty, Elshyte, we might have a chance, but his record in our so-called rebuilding phase gives me no cause for confidence. 2025 is out next best chance under the current regime.

short answer is no.

When North's aging stars felt the pinch half way through 2016, they fell off a cliff and they are now in a world of pain

Our aging stars helped win several games in 2016 and had some influence in early games of 2017 but by the end of 2017 it was th eyoung brigade who were most influential in our wins. This is why I dont see the angst about us "treading water" in 2017 when what happened was a transition of who was influential. Our young players who are now our most important players still have improvement in them. Gresham, Acres, Billings, Sinclaire, Steele, Dunstan... loads of upside yet all were influential in various victories already

I just dont see us as North at all who spent 3-4 years topping up at the same time as we spent 3-4 years rebuilding