Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

[damienc]

Hindsight can be a great teacher if you want to learn from it.

You know how it goes.

If we had known this, would we have done that?

I can’t think of a more appropriate example than to ask that question about the Jake Carlisle trade.

For me it’s a no brainer. We made a big, big mistake recruiting Carlisle. He won’t deliver what we want or need.

Those are big statements that I need to justify.

Ok. Here goes.

I get that he is a big bodied, high marking defender. Battle hardened and AFL proven. Playing at a club where he was clearly unhappy. A fresh start was all he needed to revitalize his career and give us that depth down back.

Or so the theory goes.

We had to pay overs to get him. Give up a top ten draft pick and pay him megabucks.

Carlisle came to us with bad karma. At a club embroiled and tarnished by a controversy over performance enhancing drugs that were subsequently found to be illegal.

If that wasn’t enough, no sooner had the ink dried on his very generous contract that he was embroiled in yet another drugs scandal this time involving recreational use.

And now he is out of footy for a year. He can’t train with anyone and can’t play. What he will be doing for the next year I haven’t a clue. The club has said they will be doing everything they can to look after his welfare but what does that mean?

There are no guarantees that Carlisle will stay on the straight and narrow. How do we know he won’t go back to some old habits?

If he does, of course, his AFL career is finished. Maybe it is anyway. It is a big ask to expect him to come back as the player he was after such a long absence from the game.

Look at Saad. Try as he might he couldn’t resurrect his career.

Of course Carlisle is a better player but it is a big expectation.

So, what would life have been like if we had passed on Carlisle?

What would life have been like if he had gone to the Bulldogs or the Blues instead of us?

The dishlickers along with Carlton were chasing him just as hard as we were.

Well, I can tell you.

We would have recruited Keiran Collins. I have no doubt about that. And he would have been a great get. Last night was a bit of a giveaway for me. I know it was only an NAB pre season game but he debuted for the Bulldogs last night and did a fantastic job shutting down Jonathan Patton. He is barely 20 but he has the physique that makes him ready for the game at the highest level.

I hope I am wrong about Carlisle. I hope he comes back better than ever. I hope he becomes everything we want and need in a key defender.

But I can’t help thinking and comparing us to the Bulldogs. They are looking good for 2016. They had a similar problem down back that we had. But Collins may well have solved that problem giving them the balance they need to have a real crack.

I can’t help but be a little envious.

[ROLS-LEE]

If it weren't for the hawks I believe we wouldn't have paid overs. Yes it was a gamble and so far it looks like our gamble was wrong but give the guy a break. He is a saints man now. If he has a year off and doesn't transgress and plays great football next year then maybe the gamble was right. Right now all we can do is wait.

[ripplug66]

Hindsight can be a great teacher if you want to learn from it.

You know how it goes.

If we had known this, would we have done that?

I can’t think of a more appropriate example than to ask that question about the Jake Carlisle trade.

For me it’s a no brainer. We made a big, big mistake recruiting Carlisle. He won’t deliver what we want or need.

There are some big statements there that I need to justify.

Ok. Here goes.

I get that he is a big bodied, high marking defender. Battle hardened and AFL proven. Playing at a club where he was clearly unhappy. A fresh start was all he needed to revitalize his career and give us that depth down back.

Or so the theory goes.

We had to pay overs to get him. Give up a top ten draft pick and pay him megabucks.

Carlisle came to us with bad karma. At a club embroiled and tarnished by a controversy over performance enhancing drugs that were subsequently found to be illegal.

If that wasn’t enough, no sooner had the ink dried on his very generous contract that he was embroiled in yet another drugs scandal this time involving recreational use.

And now he is out of footy for a year. He can’t train with anyone and can’t play. What he will be doing for the next year I haven’t a clue. The club has said they will be doing everything they can to look after his welfare but what does that mean?

There are no guarantees that Carlisle will stay on the straight and narrow. How do we know he won’t go back to some old habits?

If he does, of course, his AFL career is finished. Maybe it is anyway. It is a big ask to expect him to come back as the player he was after such a long absence from the game.

Look at Saad. Try as he might he couldn’t resurrect his career.

Of course Carlisle is a better player but it is a big expectation.

So, what would life have been like if we had passed on Carlisle?

What would life have been like if he had gone to the Bulldogs or the Blues instead of us?

The dishlickers along with Carlton were chasing him just as hard as we were.

Well, I can tell you.

We would have recruited Keiran Collins. I have no doubt about that. And he would have been a great get. Last night was a bit of a giveaway for me. I know it was only an NAB pre season game but he debuted for the Bulldogs last night and did a fantastic job shutting down Jonathan Patton. He is barely 20 but he has the physique that makes him ready for the game at the highest level.

I hope I am wrong about Carlisle. I hope he comes back better than ever. I hope he becomes everything we want and need in a key defender.

But I can’t help thinking and comparing us to the Bulldogs. They are looking good for 2016. They had a similar problem down back that we had. But Collins may well have solved that problem giving them the balance they need to have a real crack.

I can’t help but be a little envious.

He wont deliver what we need? Do you have the powerball numbers as well. And I still cant believe people use Saad as a reason why Carlisle may struggle next season. Saad was ordinary before suspended and ordinary after. Saad missed 18 months of footy, Carlisle misses 9 months. Carlise is a better player by a long way. Carlisle has triple the AFL experience before he was suspended. As for Collins he hasn't even played a game yet and even if he goes OK I will doubt he gets to Carlisle ability but we have to wait and see just as we do before we say Carlisle wont deliver what we need.

[borderbarry]

At this point of time you have to agree that Carlisle was a bad trade for the Saints. However, in 14 months time I hope it is a different story.
And does anyone know if he is out for two weeks more that the other Essendon and ex-Essendon players.

[desertsaint]

Undoubtedly a bad trade. No way in hell would the Saints have paid anything like they did in both draft pick and salary if they had known then what we now know. Unlikely they would have offered anything at all.
But our mistake, we have one less year of him than we traded for - a prime year of his development with us. We can can only hope it turns out alright. Personally I reckon we paid overs even without the other issues.

[Saints43]

I looks to me like the club are rapt that they've got a 6' 5'' centre half back from 2017 onwards.

If his suspension upsets you just pretend that we draft him next year. Because, what's the difference?

[Life Long Saint]

Undoubtedly a bad trade. No way in hell would the Saints have paid anything like they did in both draft pick and salary if they had known then what we now know. Unlikely they would have offered anything at all.
But our mistake, we have one less year of him than we traded for - a prime year of his development with us. We can can only hope it turns out alright. Personally I reckon we paid overs even without the other issues.

We essentially got Carlisle and Gresham for picks 1 and 2.
From what I've seen of Gresham, I am not disappointed with the trade when you take the long term view. Hawthorn's interest in Jake forced our hand somewhat.

If we were North Melbourne or Fremantle then it would be a bad trade with Carlisle out for the season but this trade will pay off for us..of that, I have no doubt.

[prwilkinson]

Wait until his career is over at St.Kilda before deciding whether or not it was a good decision in recruiting him.

[Moods]

Ok. well done you sucked me in and probably a few others with your heading. I thought that Carlisle had done something stupid (again) or you'd heard he had but on 5kgs since the WADA announcement or something.

Basically one blokes opinion that is old news anyway. 'The Carlisle is a mistake thread' was done and dusted weeks ago. Let's just wait and see.

[Sainternist]

"It began as a mistake." - Charles Bukowski

[To the top]

Well, I have one solution for you.

Go and follow Essendon - the Club Carlisle no longer plays for.

In regards Essendon, isn't it ironical that its (remaining) 12 players get to train together under a former Assistant Coach of the Club, including tenure during the period the illegal drug injecting program was used?

So these 12 get an advantage over the players who, dis-allusioned with Essendon, chose to leave.

Someone likes Carlisle get to train by himself.

Just another reason Essendon should have been banned from the competition - full stop.

And I am still waiting for Watson to do the honorable thing and hand back his Brownlow Medal - with the notation "Not awarded" put alongside that year's award.

How can a player from a team which was banned (ie not able to contest the finals) then win an AFL award?

The AFL and their "Mates Club" are beyond belief.

[#gosaintas]

My God is this whinge still going? Couldn't you have just sharted in one of the other threads about him?
Maybe wait till he does something new before making a complete goose of yourself.

[8856brother]

Will win 3 Brownlows and become the greatest Saint ever.

[WinnersOnly]

Before I get pinged - I totally agree with you post damienc!

[gringo]

Right now it is but only time will tell. Kieran Collins had better not become a gun. He was a guy who looked ready to go from draft day and plenty of fans wanted. I think the club thought Carlisle would have the jump on him as he was ready to go straight away. Collins could be an established player already by the time Carlisle gets back up to full fitness. Hindsight is a bitch.

[damienc]

"It began as a mistake." - Charles Bukowski

"And ended the same way" - Damienc

[Dis Believer]

Bollocks

[skeptic]

Hypothetical...

Lets say no suspension but he does a knee and misses 12 months.

Is it equally a bad trade in that scenario?

[SaintPav]

"It began as a mistake." - Charles Bukowski

"Don't try". Hank

[evo]

Many of the Carlisle complaints are from disgruntled, single minded people who are devastated that we didn't get to use pick 5 on their favorite kid in the draft. The same ones that are still moaning about the Lee/Hickey deals I think.

[samoht]

I question the selection of another big-bodied defender.

We already have a developing big-bodied defender in Goddard, who is already averaging the same number of possessions as Carlisle did over his last few seasons (and Goddard will only get better, as he develops further).
So while most clubs are going for the fast, rebounding key position defenders to counter the new breed of mobile key forwards like Stringer, etc.. our recruiters are living in the past.

(Even Goddard "slipping/sliding" to us indicates that recruiters are moving away from the big bodied defenders).

[BigMart]

Couple of things

No doubt we paid overs for Jake, most of the time you have to when recruiting a player. His actual output was no where near his salary demand. Bit of early Kosi about Jakes career.
Started well... Then had a purple patch for a month and is now got serious tendinitis of the Knee and can't even train.
He's a 700k player without an accolade?!

That aside, yes he can play a bit... And the year off is something many players face in there careers...

Not the big worry though

That is his putrid attitude, in his last year at Essendon he was petulant and just sooking... You can tell a lot about a person when the chips are down IMO
His body is in average condition, he was filmed snorting coke a week after his trade and is most likely an idiot like Fev.

For all his footy failings, at least Kosi was a ripper bloke and gave everything he had... That we can respect.

Carlisle ATM is a poor mans Lovett
Ironically from the same club, recruited in desperation for a missing piece, so we paid heaps at high risk.

If it works out - which it might
It'll be all worth it

Chances are, the draft would have been the safer option... Because I thought that was our strategy.

Gresham will be OK
Again, chances are, parish will be far better.

[ripplug66]

No doubt a proven player is the better option than the draft. The only thing safer about the draft is the difference in cash and it seems cash isn't a problem with this trade this year. As for parish being better well who cares. We couldn't get him unless we somehow got pick 4.

[To the top]

So let's put some FACTS on the table, not rubbish.

St Kilda have had a long term (including when we relied on Dawson as a key defender, because he was rubbish) problem with key defenders, relying on Fisher who is now well past 30 and who was missing for a couple of years because of injury.

We really have not had good key defenders since the pre-injury Maguire, the pre-injury Penny and Hudgden.

So we address the issue short term by recruiting Delaney from North Melbourne.

We draft Goddard because of his credentials as a possible long term key defender.

Fisher returns in 2015 - and continues on in 2016, but he is now that much older.

Thru this time we got absolutely cut up by our lack of key defenders with opposition sides pushing their ruckmen forward to further exploit our deficiencies.

It was an abject joke - and resulted in us using Stanley as a full back, which he was not and harming his development.

Carlisle, who has potential as a key defender, but who Essendon attempted to turn into a key forward against his wishes, became disallusioned with Essendon, venting against them as he did and for understandable reasons (Essendon are a disgrace of a sporting Club and has no regards for its players).

So St Kilda, with the glaring deficiency on its list, moved to Contract the 198cm key defender - successfully and against opposition from other Clubs and the response of Essendon which was the response you would expect from a criminal Club which pays no regard to the health and well being of its players (and was convicted and fined by Workcover).

Yes, there was the video - but if you think that Carlisle is the only AFL player doing such a thing you have rocks in your head - because the AFL dynamic represents society.

The fact was that, because of the video, he is under notice - and under scrutiny - correctly.

The 12 month suspension, despite the players being culpable because they took injections and did not divulge this at any stage was ultimately down to the culture which is the Essendon Football Club.

So it is not where and what Carlisle comes from - we all know of Essendon Football Club.

It is what he does from now.

And St Kilda actually have a decent 198cm defender with some experience on its books - and gee, we don't half need that because we have a gaping hole right there.

So what were the options to repair this gaping hole absent recruiting Carlisle?

Carlisle is now one of our blocks to a better future - along with Goddard, Mc Cartin and Bruce.

The recruiting of Carlisle was a necessity - and an urgent necessity.

[spert]

Unless Richo pulls some kind of magic trick out of his hat, I see this season as a repeat of last season, so we might as well look forward to 2017 when JC is available, though to me getting a quality midfield assembled is the priority.