Development of Forwards

[samuraisaint]

Since 2009, the following fowards have been drafted to the club and have not met the expectations of what it takes to produce for our team at the senior level:
Tom Lynch
Tommy Walsh
Terry Milera
Beau Maister
Trent Dennis-Lane
Rhys Stanley
Tom Lee

and Spencer White can't get a game at the moment despite us being wooden spooners last year, with White finally breaking through at the end of the season for two senior appearances.

Can anyone shed any light on why these players didn't develop? We drafted White to play as a forward and we could've used him today. I have heard that Lee played at ff for Sandy, below expectations, with Hickey the major goal scorer. What is happening to our forwards? Why aren't they developing?

[Wayne42]

Looking at that list it reads like poor recruiting

[WinnersOnly]

Looking at that list it reads like poor recruiting

+1

[samuraisaint]

Well, it could be. But some of these players have been recruited by other clubs too, before and since we signed them. All clubs make a few howlers but I think there is a player development problem somewhere.

[Wayne42]

Well, it could be. But some of these players have been recruited by other clubs too, before and since we signed them. All clubs make a few howlers but I think there is a player development problem somewhere.

Or a player identification problem

[Bluthy]

White was pick 40 odd wasn't he? he was seen as a bit of a project player and is struggling with his tank like Lee. Lee was drafted under the erratic WA Watters jugganaut era. Stanley was about pick 40 I think. Under Lyon the kids weren't played and didn't even get much development if you weren't in the top 25.

Rooey and Kosi were recruited with Pick 1 & 2 and were the basis of the fwd line. We have Paddy No. 1 pick who looks the goods to me. WE have Billings at pick 3 as that mercurial goal scoring fwd/mid. Wouldn't surprise me if over the next few years we go for another tall power forward to go along side Paddy. Lonie's got the skills. WE have a proper development environment in place and I'll think we'll see the benefits of that for the forward line.

[samuraisaint]

Do we?
I hope you're right, because the news from the club sounds confused at best. We were going to have an elite junior development academy like Arsenal. What happened to that?

[Wayne42]

Do we?
I hope you're right, because the news from the club sounds confused at best. We were going to have an elite junior development academy like Arsenal. What happened to that?

The Academy is there, they are still trying to work out how to actually develop players who can't do it naturally.
Good luck to them i say.

[8856brother]

White was pick 40 odd wasn't he? he was seen as a bit of a project player and is struggling with his tank like Lee. Lee was drafted under the erratic WA Watters jugganaut era. Stanley was about pick 40 I think. Under Lyon the kids weren't played and didn't even get much development if you weren't in the top 25.

Rooey and Kosi were recruited with Pick 1 & 2 and were the basis of the fwd line. We have Paddy No. 1 pick who looks the goods to me. WE have Billings at pick 3 as that mercurial goal scoring fwd/mid. Wouldn't surprise me if over the next few years we go for another tall power forward to go along side Paddy. Lonie's got the skills. WE have a proper development environment in place and I'll think we'll see the benefits of that for the forward line.

Pick 25

[Munga]

GT had a way of empowering the kids to be great, getting in guys like Daley Thompson for a chat, taking them away to China and South Africa for humility, leadership groups, it spawned a youthful bunch of leaders wanting to get the maximum from themselves.

Ross on the other hand was a great tactician, but from an outsider's view, did he have a holier than thou aura? Probably doesn't empower the kids too well. And maybe we just drafted like rubbish.

[BringBackMadDog]

Since 2009, the following fowards have been drafted to the club and have not met the expectations of what it takes to produce for our team at the senior level:
Tom Lynch
Tommy Walsh
Terry Milera
Beau Maister
Trent Dennis-Lane
Rhys Stanley
Tom Lee

and Spencer White can't get a game at the moment despite us being wooden spooners last year, with White finally breaking through at the end of the season for two senior appearances.

Can anyone shed any light on why these players didn't develop? We drafted White to play as a forward and we could've used him today. I have heard that Lee played at ff for Sandy, below expectations, with Hickey the major goal scorer. What is happening to our forwards? Why aren't they developing?

White was pretty good in the practice match this week against Port. Lee played full back and was beaten badly after 1/4 time
White will make it, remember he was drafted as an under age and is still only 20.

[Bluthy]

GT had a way of empowering the kids to be great, getting in guys like Daley Thompson for a chat, taking them away to China and South Africa for humility, leadership groups, it spawned a youthful bunch of leaders wanting to get the maximum from themselves.

Ross on the other hand was a great tactician, but from an outsider's view, did he have a holier than thou aura? Probably doesn't empower the kids too well. And maybe we just drafted like rubbish.

I reckon your right Munga. The best coaches are like fathers. The more you hear from coaches like Malthouse and Mark Thompson you realise how much a part of their job is making players believe they can be great and achieve something great. Then you hear from Ross Lyon and he says he says "Lets be clear on this...I haven't even spoken with Crowley about it (the drugs suspension)". That's really caring Ross. He was just another piece on our chess board and now you just reset your game plan with one less pawn.

Ideally your want that perfect mix of tactics and inspiration that Clarkson seems to have. I reckon he'll be looking for a new challenge in a couple of years - he seems the type to want to climb mountains. What better challenge that getting a club its second premiership?

[Con Gorozidis]

I have no idea but that McCarthy kid for GWS has come from Sth Freo, is only 20 and looks a million times better than Lee already.

[WellardSaint]

Con, did you go to The Game Sports Bar (The Aberdeen in Northbridge)?
The new Western Saints HQ.
We had a great turnout. You should have been there.

[plugger66]

GT had a way of empowering the kids to be great, getting in guys like Daley Thompson for a chat, taking them away to China and South Africa for humility, leadership groups, it spawned a youthful bunch of leaders wanting to get the maximum from themselves.

Ross on the other hand was a great tactician, but from an outsider's view, did he have a holier than thou aura? Probably doesn't empower the kids too well. And maybe we just drafted like rubbish.

I reckon your right Munga. The best coaches are like fathers. The more you hear from coaches like Malthouse and Mark Thompson you realise how much a part of their job is making players believe they can be great and achieve something great. Then you hear from Ross Lyon and he says he says "Lets be clear on this...I haven't even spoken with Crowley about it (the drugs suspension)". That's really caring Ross. He was just another piece on our chess board and now you just reset your game plan with one less pawn.

Ideally your want that perfect mix of tactics and inspiration that Clarkson seems to have. I reckon he'll be looking for a new challenge in a couple of years - he seems the type to want to climb mountains. What better challenge that getting a club its second premiership?

So GT was a great coach and RL isn't? I don't think so. GT also had crap players after we lost the high picks. It was our recruiting, not coaching that meant we got poor players. And if you think RL hasn't spoken to Crowley about the incident you believe in Santa Claus. He would be doing it for the sake of the player.

On the topic I would suggest our recruiting still hasn't improved much. Lee seems to be a real bust. Then we got Hickey and Longer for high picks and its pretty obvious we don't really want to play both together so why the hell we got Longer after we already had Hickey. I don't care about some of the players we got at later picks because that can be a bit of luck but you cant waste picks below 25 because you get bugger all of them. Even White is under pressure but we should at least wait till the end of the year about him.

[samuraisaint]

There's truth in what you say Plugger - but the fact that so many of these players seem destined for the AFL scrapheap - with Lee and White to add to that list most likely - I have to ask why there hasn't been better a more strategic, structured approach to training and development of forwards which have come to the club? Was White another Western Australian? I thought somebody posted that somewhere. If true the recruiting under Watter's reign was even worse than I first thought. Allan Jeans would not have been amused!
Roo and Kosi were just prodigies like some of the GWS kids, G Train, Aaron Hamill and Schneider were ready made forwards in their mid twenties from successful clubs, so they don't count.
Hickey arguably should have played yesterday if White couldn't for mine. We badly missed him in the second quarter when we kept kicking into the forward line to five foot nine players and got little reward for effort.
Bruce looks like the most promising second tall forward we have had in years and could be an excellent foil for McCartin in the years to come.

[plugger66]

There's truth in what you say Plugger - but the fact that so many of these players seem destined for the AFL scrapheap - with Lee and White to add to that list most likely - I have to ask why there hasn't been better a more strategic, structured approach to training and development of forwards which have come to the club. Was White another Western Australian? I thought somebody posted that somewhere. If true the recruiting under Watter's reign is even worse than I first thought.
Roo and Kosi were just prodigies like some of the GWS kids, G Train, Aaron Hamill and Schneider were ready made forwards in their mid twenties from successful clubs, so they don't count.
Hickey arguably should have played yesterday if White couldn't for mine. We badly missed him in the second quarter when we kept kicking into the forward line to five foot nine players and got little reward for effort.
Bruce looks like the most promising second tall forward we have had in years and could be an excellent foil for McCartin in the years to come.

White is from the west but the west of Melbourne. I don't go along with the players not being developed well enough, I just think its poor recruiting. We got sucked in by Lee kicking something like 60 goals in the WAFL but so did Maister. Its a pretty poor comp. White went earlier then most had him in the draft so again probably a poor pick.

I agree Hickey should have played yesterday but for me it would have been for Longer. I couldn't have Hickey playing as a permanent forward because it wouldn't work for long enough in a game but he certainly could rest there. People want Rooy up the ground but the problem with that is we also want him to kick it to him in the forward line. And endeavour yesterday was great but its going to be long year. Even though GWS were clear favourites they had never beaten us so that is one of few games we probably had a chance of winning. GC were poor on Saturday so it will be interesting how we go.

[samuraisaint]

They were very poor against Melbourne and Ablett looks injured for mine, so this is one game where AR needs to throw caution to the wind and go with gut instinct with selection. I believe that Monty and Roo would be doubtful this week, especially with the travel aspect, so I would hope that he gives White the opportunity to show what he can do against younger opposition. Saad needs to come out anyway, so even if Nick does go up, White should get a chance. If Monty goes out, perhaps he could play someone with a bit more defensive nous like a Tom Curren, or even replace him with Webster and change the whole team around.
An honourable loss to GWS can be seen as what it was, a great effort, or in light of what we know (that GWS are a botton three side) a wasted opportunity - having said that I think they will finish in the middle of the ladder, so I will go with the honourable loss option.
I think we'll only win two games this year and finish stone motherless last, so selection of players becomes crucial in what will certainly be a development year. This will extend into 2016 as well, with 2017 also being a year where we finish with more losses than wins.
I believe that the strategy needs to be building towards a victory against Carlton in Wellington on Anzac Day, and injured players and those struggling with form left at Sandy to develop - not wallow, which is what I think has happened with many of our forward line recruits since 2008

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

None of the guys mentioned are high-quality talent wise.

Tommy Walsh got nowhere near breaking into the side at Sydney.

Beau Maister was at WC for a long time and never cut the mustard there either.

The only one of those guys named that was perhaps a missed opportunity for the Saints was Tom Lynch. He never exactly set the world on fire at VFL level, but the Crows have obviously been able to get him to lift his game. But even Lynch isn't an a-grade player; wouldn't surprise me if he is out of the league in a couple of years.

[seano1]

Do we?
I hope you're right, because the news from the club sounds confused at best. We were going to have an elite junior development academy like Arsenal. What happened to that?

The Academy is there, they are still trying to work out how to actually develop players who can't do it naturally.
Good luck to them i say.

It would also be hard to hide players from others clubs.........we do the hard work and they sneak in and draft them...waste of effort then..maybe we have to become sneaky and hide kids in the local league...watch and guide them but don't let them get ahead...Essendon have done this at edfl try out kids from interstate see how they go and send them home if they don't handle it

[gringo]

Plenty of guys still on the list who could make it. The thing is all areas of the game have hits and misses. The forwards are easily the most obvious when they are going well. We could list all the mids like Crocker, Winmar etc who didn't come on or backs and find that only a small percentage of players make it past 100 games. We probably wasted 2 years believing we just needed to top up when we could have gone harder at kids. I think we are probably on the right path now with some very exciting talent coming through across the board. I think we need to get some serious midfield talent in from now on and increase the depth through there. Then we just need to keep watering the seeds and wait for them to bloom. The good thing about the modern system is kids are coming in a lot more ready made. The talent identification is much better too. On forwards even Geelong struggled to get really high level forwards in their best era. Mooney and J Pod were the go to men with a young Hawkins their under study.

[hayes66]

None of the guys mentioned are high-quality talent wise.

Tommy Walsh got nowhere near breaking into the side at Sydney.

Beau Maister was at WC for a long time and never cut the mustard there either.

The only one of those guys named that was perhaps a missed opportunity for the Saints was Tom Lynch. He never exactly set the world on fire at VFL level, but the Crows have obviously been able to get him to lift his game. But even Lynch isn't an a-grade player; wouldn't surprise me if he is out of the league in a couple of years.

Question of Accuracy

Lynch never set the world on fire in the VFL??? The games i watched i thought he showed good form. I am sure he won the ABC award for best on ground in one game.
Gee if any of our new forwards kick ten in a game i will be very pleased even if it's against a poor side.
Wouldn't surprise if he is out of the game in a few years??? Interesting comment. In the history of the game how many poor players have kicked ten?? I think you will find that the answer to that one is, none.

[saynta]

Looking at that list it reads like poor recruiting

Exactly. Piss poor recruiting has been a factor for as long as I can remember.

The Saints are too conservative and don't take a chance on many players who i believe showed glimpses of that x factor that champions and game winners possess.

Rioli is a prime example here as is Darling. Both players overlooked by our club.

Another two were on display in the Western Bulldogs v West Coast game. Both have blood relatives who were champions for the Saints, but were overlooked in favour of potential lesser but nevertheless solid players.

Of course I'm talking about Marcus Bontempelli and Tom Lamb.

Some of you will be upset, enraged even by my post. But truth hurts, and I'm entitled to my opinion.

Our other failing I again put down to the conservative elements within the club and the lack of daring. We don't (or in the past ,haven't) give(n) our young players a fair go or developed them properly. Cripps and Lynch are good examples here. Both are doing

exceptionally well at their new clubs, after being starved of opportunities down at the Saints.

[plugger66]

Looking at that list it reads like poor recruiting

Exactly. Piss poor recruiting has been a factor for as long as I can remember.

The Saints are too conservative and don't take a chance on many players who i believe showed glimpses of that x factor that champions and game winners possess.

Rioli is a prime example here as is Darling. Both players overlooked by our club.

Another two were on display in the Western Bulldogs v West Coast game. Both have blood relatives who were champions for the Saints, but were overlooked in favour of potential lesser but nevertheless solid players.

Of course I'm talking about Marcus Bontempelli and Tom Lamb.

Some of you will be upset, enraged even by my post. But truth hurts, and I'm entitled to my opinion.

Our other failing I again put down to the conservative elements within the club and the lack of daring. We don't (or in the past ,haven't) give(n) our young players a fair go or developed them properly. Cripps and Lynch are good examples here. Both are doing

exceptionally well at their new clubs, after being starved of opportunities down at the Saints.

I think if you are going to make statements knocking the club then get some facts right. Cripps wasn't starved of opportunities at all. Even Lynch when he went to Adelaide played the same amount of games in his first year as he did in his last year at the Saints. By the way if got lamb we missed Goddard. I thought he was related to a Saint. Cant have it both ways.

[saynta]

Looking at that list it reads like poor recruiting

Exactly. Piss poor recruiting has been a factor for as long as I can remember.

The Saints are too conservative and don't take a chance on many players who i believe showed glimpses of that x factor that champions and game winners possess.

Rioli is a prime example here as is Darling. Both players overlooked by our club.

Another two were on display in the Western Bulldogs v West Coast game. Both have blood relatives who were champions for the Saints, but were overlooked in favour of potential lesser but nevertheless solid players.

Of course I'm talking about Marcus Bontempelli and Tom Lamb.

Some of you will be upset, enraged even by my post. But truth hurts, and I'm entitled to my opinion.

Our other failing I again put down to the conservative elements within the club and the lack of daring. We don't (or in the past ,haven't) give(n) our young players a fair go or developed them properly. Cripps and Lynch are good examples here. Both are doing

exceptionally well at their new clubs, after being starved of opportunities down at the Saints.

I think if you are going to make statements knocking the club then get some facts right. Cripps wasn't starved of opportunities at all. Even Lynch when he went to Adelaide played the same amount of games in his first year as he did in his last year at the Saints. By the way if got lamb we missed Goddard. I thought he was related to a Saint. Cant have it both ways.

I can repeat your statement back to you. Get your facts right. We had already picked Goddard. We could have picked Lamb with our next pick instead of McKenzie.

You need to put your mind into gear before actually hitting the submit button.