What's the point?

[Teflon]

I think our objective this year is clear - what is the point of limping into the 8??

Its surely time we own the fact it's no longer 2009, we are no longer one of the top sides in contention and that true development starts now. Play kids at all costs IMO - don't waste anymore time on Polo, Ray, Peake etc

If as many scribes suggest, this years draft is a bumper crop.....it's time to drink long and deep - go all out for the no 1 pick if we can and as many early picks as we can after that.

Surely our aim is to get back in contention as quick as possible - I truly don't believe the output from some of our kids (played on rotation so we don't burn them out) could be less than some of our bottom end players.

Let's also take our lesson from this era of players which to me is:
Recruit skill first, that's good ball users who make smart decisions and who have some dash - happy to take the hard nut who isn't a super user but not to many of this one paced type.

What is the point of barely making the 8 this year - give our kids real development..... They'll get the finals experience quickly enough and for a sustained period if we build the next core the right way now.

[saintspremiers]

Doing as you say sounds great in theory and reality is
It could cost us quite a few games. Yes, we should still be good enough to fall into the botto
Half of the eight and maybe win a final.

BUT if we go full on Play The Kids routine and then finish say 12th, our membership numbers next season will be abysmal. We could end up being forced to then sell several games interstate and be a financial basket case.

I prefer we rebuild and still try to be competitive and do a Sydney.

Good recruiting doesn't rely on you just getting a very high draft picky in Round 1 of the draft.

Pick 10 should still be a decent long term player, especially if the draft coming up goes deep as some suggest.

[perfectionist]

... what is the point of limping into the 8??.

Which 8? The top 8 or the next 8?

[Moory]

Don't think we can look at early draft picks as the answer to all our problems. Just look at where that approach has gotten Melbourne. Nowhere. I'd prefer we aim to be competetive, give our kids some real winning experience.

[Gwilt Edged]

Moory's right, tanking is not the answer. It only gets you 1 elite pick

The club needs lots of picks not a few high ones. Trading and delisting is needed and you don't have to tank for that

[thejiggingsaint]

I may be old fashioned, but I still believe in going out to win every game. I know it doesn't always turn out that way! The average age of the side has come down from recent seasons with the inclusion of the newer boys, and I'm patient enough not to expect too much from them in a short time. Now is the time for cool heads and strong nerve. One loss (in round one) at a ground where we traditionally struggle hasn't got me ready to call for us tanking for picks! 2000-2003 were seasons I'm not in too much of a hurry to go through again!

[plugger66]

Look we cant win the flag but really even if we just won yesterday it wouldnt have changed that. The window shut at the end of 2010 when the players mentally just couldnt go on.Easy in hindsight to see that but I think it is pretty obvious to me.

The question is how do you handle it. We could just play young guys and would probably win 6 to 8 games or we could blood them gradually having 4 to 5 in the side at once and maybe win 10-12 games. I would go with the second option. The young guys who deserve a game get one instead of just giving them away and the better young players will get plenty of experience anyway and more likely in a competitive or winning culture. The other way will get games into guys that mightnt be good enough anyway and we will have some very bad loses which may not help the young players.

[Teflon]

Look we cant win the flag but really even if we just won yesterday it wouldnt have changed that. The window shut at the end of 2010 when the players mentally just couldnt go on.Easy in hindsight to see that but I think it is pretty obvious to me.

The question is how do you handle it. We could just play young guys and would probably win 6 to 8 games or we could blood them gradually having 4 to 5 in the side at once and maybe win 10-12 games. I would go with the second option. The young guys who deserve a game get one instead of just giving them away and the better young players will get plenty of experience anyway and more likely in a competitive or winning culture. The other way will get games into guys that mightnt be good enough anyway and we will have some very bad loses which may not help the young players.

The second is what I'm also advocating. Time to be realistic

Probably your best post ever..

[gringo]

Look we cant win the flag but really even if we just won yesterday it wouldnt have changed that. The window shut at the end of 2010 when the players mentally just couldnt go on.Easy in hindsight to see that but I think it is pretty obvious to me.

The question is how do you handle it. We could just play young guys and would probably win 6 to 8 games or we could blood them gradually having 4 to 5 in the side at once and maybe win 10-12 games. I would go with the second option. The young guys who deserve a game get one instead of just giving them away and the better young players will get plenty of experience anyway and more likely in a competitive or winning culture. The other way will get games into guys that mightnt be good enough anyway and we will have some very bad loses which may not help the young players.

The second is what I'm also advocating. Time to be realistic

Probably your best post ever..

That was surprisingly like an opinion rather than rubbishing others. I almost feel like I should rubbish his now, no just be encouraging. Good post Plugger.

[SainterK]

Yeah nice post Pluggs

[matrix]

yeah cant ague with that
we need to seriously look at the turnover stuff and make some hard decisions
dal went back to the seconds and look what happened after that

milera, siposs (when fit) ledger and maybe even simpkin need to play and play every week as well as rhys

deep into finals this year wont be happening imo
(very glad to be wrong tho)

[Teflon]

As Plugger rightly points out.... You only need to look at the quality of the game compared to other games to see where we (and Port) are. I am scared to think what will happen to us against a formidable side good in clearance, contested possession and with genuine Ruck prospects..

[skeptic]

All I'll add to the post is that we also need to start reducing game time for players that clearly are not up to it

Not guys like Roo, Kosi, Milne, Hayes etc that have sent the benchmark and earned their spots for a long time but our mediocre middle tier that have been under performing for a long time.

Guys like Peake, Ray, Jones and Blake... well we should only really have 1 or two of them tops in the team at any 1 time if they earn the spot and provide some senior relief... they can't imrpove anymore

Guys like Geary, Armo, Polo should be played a lot more as a final trial to see if they can improve and hold their spots in the team

[The Redeemer]

Look we cant win the flag but really even if we just won yesterday it wouldnt have changed that. The window shut at the end of 2010 when the players mentally just couldnt go on.Easy in hindsight to see that but I think it is pretty obvious to me.

The question is how do you handle it. We could just play young guys and would probably win 6 to 8 games or we could blood them gradually having 4 to 5 in the side at once and maybe win 10-12 games. I would go with the second option. The young guys who deserve a game get one instead of just giving them away and the better young players will get plenty of experience anyway and more likely in a competitive or winning culture. The other way will get games into guys that mightnt be good enough anyway and we will have some very bad loses which may not help the young players.

The second is what I'm also advocating. Time to be realistic

Probably your best post ever..

I have been advocating this too. Give players an extended run however with our core group we should win more games than we lose. Key word being SHOULD.

That being said if Milera keeps on playing well then he stays in. Same goes for Stanley and hopefully for Ledger, Cripps and Siposs.

It is a gradual process and we are in a better position than most to actually have so damn good players that at times will take the load off the youngens and ease them in whilst giving ample opportunity to show if they are up to it.

The younger players should be treated like the older and if form warrants, they stay and if not they go.

[Buckets]

Look we cant win the flag but really even if we just won yesterday it wouldnt have changed that. The window shut at the end of 2010 when the players mentally just couldnt go on.Easy in hindsight to see that but I think it is pretty obvious to me.

The question is how do you handle it. We could just play young guys and would probably win 6 to 8 games or we could blood them gradually having 4 to 5 in the side at once and maybe win 10-12 games. I would go with the second option. The young guys who deserve a game get one instead of just giving them away and the better young players will get plenty of experience anyway and more likely in a competitive or winning culture. The other way will get games into guys that mightnt be good enough anyway and we will have some very bad loses which may not help the young players.

+1

No reason to kill the club on and off the field. Need to be realistic 10 - 12 wins this year would be a pass under a new coach and the gradual blooding of new guys.

[asiu]

the point .... slip neatly inbetween GWS and (not the the side who will flog us next week) as the 17th place getter.

c'mon , we can do this.

[Sainternist]

Jeez, I thought it was obvious from the start that the intention was to GO THE TANK

[Stillwaiting]

As Plugger rightly points out.... You only need to look at the quality of the game compared to other games to see where we (and Port) are. I am scared to think what will happen to us against a formidable side good in clearance, contested possession and with genuine Ruck prospects..

Thats exatly what I was thinking, I watched most of the Hawks V filth on Friday and the differnce in skill level is huge. While I expected those 2 to be much better than us I was still suprised how far we are away. I only hope its just a case of a slow start for us, otherwise we may be in for some beltings

[Legendary]

No point in tanking.

You get a far greater number of top draft picks now by trading players or 'letting them go' to GWS.

We are better off making sure we have 4-5 young kids in the side every week, maybe even scraping into the finals, but giving us options to trade at the end of the year. We trade a big name and it will give us 2-3 picks inside the top 20 (potentially), which is better than 1 very high pick and then nothing else.

[tweedaletomanning]

There is NO SUCH THING AS TANKING....

Just ask AD..

[thejiggingsaint]

To go back to the title of the post: "what's the point?" The point is (or so I thought) to win games of football. I'm not quite ready to "go the tank" for draft picks. If I recall correctly, we got ourselves some pretty handy draft picks from 2000-2003 and the flag seemed to be as far away as ever at the end of 2009/10. Draft picks alone will not win you a flag, Richmond have picked up a few top drafts as well as the Demons and do we seriously consider those clubs as flag material? The "point" as far as I'm concerned, is to keep our nerve, and give this coach some credit for putting some new structures and culture in place. I can recall the "Super coach" Ross Lyon being pilloried unmercifully for the gameplan he introduced in 2007 (when we missed finals altogether) but time proved him to be on the money and premiership glory eluded us by a narrow margin! (the 2010 replay excepted ) I was gutted by the result yesterday, and by some of the performances, but for goodness sake, it's far too early to be talking of us needing to "go the tank!" I was impressed by Terry Milera, and if young Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Stanley, Sipposs etc are given extended game time in 2012, we may all be pleasantly surprised at what may eventuate. I don't often take what Michael Malthouse says too seriously, but he spoke words of wisdom in the aftermath of the drawn GF in 2010, when saying "if you see today as an opportunity for success, then that's how it will be. If you see it as failure, then that's how it will be" We have a new coach, several good young players to blend with our experienced stars. The prospect of 2012 excites me!!! To be able to go along to the game and see the development of a new Saints side, fills me with optimism!
GO SAINTS!!!!

[tweedaletomanning]

To go back to the title of the post: "what's the point?" The point is (or so I thought) to win games of football. I'm not quite ready to "go the tank" for draft picks. If I recall correctly, we got ourselves some pretty handy draft picks from 2000-2003 and the flag seemed to be as far away as ever at the end of 2009/10. Draft picks alone will not win you a flag, Richmond have picked up a few top drafts as well as the Demons and do we seriously consider those clubs as flag material? The "point" as far as I'm concerned, is to keep our nerve, and give this coach some credit for putting some new structures and culture in place. I can recall the "Super coach" Ross Lyon being pilloried unmercifully for the gameplan he introduced in 2007 (when we missed finals altogether) but time proved him to be on the money and premiership glory eluded us by a narrow margin! (the 2010 replay excepted ) I was gutted by the result yesterday, and by some of the performances, but for goodness sake, it's far too early to be talking of us needing to "go the tank!" I was impressed by Terry Milera, and if young Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Stanley, Sipposs etc are given extended game time in 2012, we may all be pleasantly surprised at what may eventuate. I don't often take what Michael Malthouse says too seriously, but he spoke words of wisdom in the aftermath of the drawn GF in 2010, when saying "if you see today as an opportunity for success, then that's how it will be. If you see it as failure, then that's how it will be" We have a new coach, several good young players to blend with our experienced stars. The prospect of 2012 excites me!!! To be able to go along to the game and see the development of a new Saints side, fills me with optimism!
GO SAINTS!!!!

Their picks are still too early to tell, but I reckon the blues are doing ok now out of tanking, as well as the filth - FLAG and the Dorks- FLAG. Just for tanking one year.

Having said that, tanking is a blight on the game, and no wonder they took away the PRIORITY DP's.

Our Admin, Recruiters and Acadamy have their work cut out for them.

The question is Do we have the RIGHT( meaning BEST) people in place to take us where we want to be?

We shall see.

Regardless I am still expecting at least a top 6 finish this year with our list (barring injuries)

If not then HEADS MUST ROLL!!!! but lets wait till seasons end....

[gringo]

Tanking was a little easier when you got the first 2 picks from uncompromised drafts. GWS and GCS will mean clubs keep selecting top talent from the 1 st round for a couple more years and if you finish 2 or third last you get SFW after pick 3. Meaning you may get a kosi but no Rooey A roughie not Buddy etc. Not quite as attractive anymore.

[Teflon]

Ok let's not tank..... Let's... Develop like mad in coincidentally the same year as a super draft is said to be upon us...

[Richter]

No point in tanking.

You get a far greater number of top draft picks now by trading players or 'letting them go' to GWS.

We are better off making sure we have 4-5 young kids in the side every week, maybe even scraping into the finals, but giving us options to trade at the end of the year. We trade a big name and it will give us 2-3 picks inside the top 20 (potentially), which is better than 1 very high pick and then nothing else.

Agreed.

Especially now the priority pick has gone, there are now 18 clubs to get picks as opposed to 16, and there are loads of these 'extra' picks knocking around.

Anyhow, even if you look at the 2001 Superdraft the A grade talent pool was spread right through the draft....

1. Luke Hodge
2. Luke Ball
3. Chris Judd
8. Jimmy Bartel
13. NDS
17. James Kelly
24. Steve Johnson
33. David Rodan
36. Sam Mitchell
37. Leigh Montagna
40. Gary Ablett*
58. Dane Swan
60. Adam Schneider