"We are going to reconstruct our front half''

[SainterK]

Thought this would be a good discussion thread, given Ross has alluded to much of his thought process tonight.

Interesting he mentioned Kosi and Rhys in the ruck?

"We are going to reconstruct our front half,'' he said.

"With the way the game has gone with presses, you are kicking to a contest a lot more, and there is less contested marks. I think Collingwood has a really good model.

"When (Sam) Gilbert went to the front half, he turned those Grand Finals around ... We see Gamble paying in the front half as well. You look at Kosi (Justin Koschitzke) and (Rhys) Stanley in the ruck, and (Nick) Riewoldt and Gilbert forward.

"We see Gamble coming out of an elite system. They have got a really good teaching environment (at Geelong). He is really well schooled."

[Teflon]

reconstructing the front half is fine.
We couldve reconstructed the front half in GF2 and it would make little difference.

Reality is we had poor ball movement into fwd 50, flogged in clearances and no midfielders who can break lines/kick goals consistently from 50.

IF we dont get some run/carry/depth intothe guts for the times Hayes/Goddard and co rest we will get pumped when second stringers go in their.

Im also not yet convinced that when it matters....Sam Gilbert is the bloke you want saving your skin with goals up fwd. Have seen him turn it over mercilessly and in GF2 miss 3 shots on goal - 2 with minimal pressure when we badly needed them.

[SainterK]

For what it's worth I agree with you Teflon, mids kicking goals, mids being decisive with their delivery inside 50....been obsessing about that myself on here for a long time now.

However I see a lot of the indecision in our mids sometimes sparked by our forward line that doesn't exactly ooze mobility or creativity at times....actually let's be honest, it's completely predictable.

I thought Schneider and Milne running through the midfield gave us something we are lacking when we could spare them, Gamble hanging around goals may allow this some more? Gilbert needs time to adjust to this role and probably has shown enough to have a decent crack at it...he certainly isn't predictable, and has heaps of mobility.

Kosi, Gardi, Rhys and/or Ben pushing forward from the ruck

Shapes up to be quite challenging for an opposition side I would of thought?

....and finally Roo's shoulders a little lighter as a result of all the above.

[SaintWodonga]

I read somewhere that Collingwood averaged an extra 4 goals per match, we have to bridge that gap. Also, does an Alistair Smith have a role to release Gilbert Forward?

Where can we get the extra 4 goals per match?

Who is our forward coach in 2011?

[bergholt]

Also, does an Alistair Smith have a role to release Gilbert Forward?

nah, completely different players. someone like a simpkin or lynch is more likely to come in to the backline, if it's not dempster or raph clarke filling that hole.

[InkerSaint]

I read somewhere that Collingwood averaged an extra 4 goals per match, we have to bridge that gap. Also, does an Alistair Smith have a role to release Gilbert Forward?

Where can we get the extra 4 goals per match?

It's not 4. It's 2-1/2.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_t ... e=TA&sby=4

See the following thread for a discussion of your second question.

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=67039

[Saint_Ash]

Reality is we had poor ball movement into fwd 50.

We did, but I think this was the case because the forward set-up just wasn't working and the options weren't there.

With Gilbert forward at least it provided something a little different.

[saintsRrising]

While Lyon was speaking specifically about the forward line...in actuality I think he is going to tweak the whole team.

He know he needs:

* more guys that can kick goals
* more pace and run
* better footskills

Backline will probably be the least tweaked...but even there if Gilbert goes forward that opens a hole there.

[SainterK]

While Lyon was speaking specifically about the forward line...in actuality I think he is going to tweak the whole team.

He know he needs:

* more guys that can kick goals
* more pace and run
* better footskills

Backline will probably be the least tweaked...but even there if Gilbert goes forward that opens a hole there.

Who would he have in mind then, Raph...Cripps?

I do like Gilbert forward, and think he should have a decent few weeks at it. It's very different practicing being a forward at training, to stepping up to it on the big stage.

I think he will be better for holding the spot down for awhile.

I must admit I do like the idea of him running down opposition defenders and bringing the kind of forward pressure we were famous for in 2009.

[InkerSaint]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/ ... fault.aspx

Some interesting details to be sure:

Lyon feels the Saints have become too "one-dimensional" in attack and Gilbert's move up forward might be just the tonic his side needs to go an extra step.

"We just think he [Gilbert] was really exciting there [in the grand finals]," Lyon told afl.com.au. "We've got to do something a bit different and we think he can really deliver.

"With [James] Gwilt coming on down back and a few others developing and [Jason] Gram and [Brendon] Goddard off half-back, we just think he can really excite us down there.

"His speed and agility ... it's just been left to too few up there and the four smalls haven't been putting enough marking pressure on and teams that press force you to kick longer to talls."

[SainterK]

Hmm, so he is saying that Milne, Schneider, Mini and Eddy (?) allowed their opponents to get the better of them too often?

[Dr Spaceman]

Hmm, so he is saying that Milne, Schneider, Mini and Eddy (?) allowed their opponents to get the better of them too often?

At least it suggests he's thinking about it and planning changes.

Many on here expected "same old, same old" in 2011.

[InkerSaint]

As he mentioned in the radio interview, they're going for a 4-talls, 2-smalls front line - Roo, Kosi, Gilbert, Gamble, with Milne and Schneider playing further up the field. That sounds like it effectively abandons the Eddy/McQualter forward-pressure role... perhaps Lyon has conceded this team role wasn't effective. Perhaps he now has stronger "talent sets" to choose from and is now in a position to re-design the team roles.

[SainterK]

As he mentioned in the radio interview, they're going for a 4-talls, 2-smalls front line - Roo, Kosi, Gilbert, Gamble, with Milne and Schneider playing further up the field. That sounds like it effectively abandons the Eddy/McQualter forward-pressure role... perhaps Lyon has conceded this team role wasn't effective. Perhaps he now has stronger "talent sets" to choose from and is now in a position to re-design the team roles.

Thanks, that does shed a bit of light on what he is planning....

[saintsRrising]

Many on here expected "same old, same old" in 2011.

And others of us predicated marked, but not 100% change.

Evolve or die.......................


The forward Line however has remained Lyon's Achilles heel in his time with us.

He has churned through the players, and different structures (ie 2 talls, 3 talls, 3-4 smalls), but has never quite gotten it to work throughout the year like I am sure he would like it to.

While it does no good, one cannot help but wonder how different history may have been if Hamill had been able to play out his career. He has just turned 33..and could have had a glorious a last five years...

We seem to have a jinx with our missing HF..Hamill, Allen, Lovett....

[Con Gorozidis]

I think that de-listing big Patto was a sign that he is going to use Kosi in the ruck. Kosi just too immobile to be permanent fwd - i know he take a great pack mark but players just run around round him too easily.
Grant Thomas is going to be all smug about it .

[SaintWodonga]

Any ideas who our forward coach will be in 2011?

[cwrcyn]

As I have posted previously, you need multiple, agile and quick marking forwards to beat Collinbgwood's game plan. Multiple crumbers doesn't work well against them. You have to make every Colingwood backman accountable and nervous about his opponent.

Therefore, a forward line I would like to see would be:


Gilbert Stanley Ray

Milne Riewoldt Goddard



Five of them are threatening in the air, have sufficient leg speed and agility One crumbing forward is enough.









.

[borderbarry]

If Raph can give us an injury free season, or near so, he will give us the run and carry out of defence. Will Tom Simpkin get a key position in the defence lines?

[ralphsmith]

So we've spent a couple of years trying to beat Geelong, now we're going to spend a few years trying to beat collingwood.

All while some other team, maybe Richmond, maybe Adelaide appear from under our noses with slightly different tactic to sneak under everyone.

[saintphantom]

Ross Lyon is and would make a great Backline Coach.

[saintspremiers]

The thing that gives me some vague hope for 2011 is that our players are used to rapid change and may be able to make big adjustments in 2011.

Obviously other sides will do likewise, and with the Pies developing and changing their list, it is rather scary!

[saint66au]

Gilbert would have turned GF2 around if he'd kicked straight

[SainterK]

Gilbert would have turned GF2 around if he'd kicked straight

I wouldn't pin it all on him though, personally....

Roo had a miss late in the first, Joey Fisher and Schneider in the second, Schneider again early in the third.

Include Gilberts three, and all of them had a combined eight misses at crucial moments, so it's unfair to pin them all on one guy isn't it?

http://www.prowess.com.au/pro-stats/rep ... ne_186.pdf

[bigcarl]

I think Gilbert up forward is a good idea and, short of BJ being used as a full time forward, is the next best ready to go option as a key forward alongside Riewoldt.


Let's face it, Kosi didn't offer enough in that role in 2010. Gilbert promises more in terms of mobility and creativity ... but I hope he is spending a lot of time over summer working on his kicking.

Not sure who would play deep. Probably Rooey at this stage because 1) he's a proven goal-kicker and 2) it might encourage others to get within goal-kicking range and have a ping themselves rather than try to spot up the big blond every time.

However, I agree with Teflon and others that a reconstructed front half is only part of the answer.

Firstly we ought to ensure that we actually have a front half and don't revert to excessive, ultra-defensive numbers behind the ball whenever the pressure comes on.

Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, we need quicker and more direct movement of the ball. Collingwood may have more leg speed than us, but the ball moves quicker through the air than anyone can run and we are fairly strong aerially.

We need some young mids to step up and take some of the pressure off Lenny. And, of course, the same applies to Riewoldt in the forward line.