Our list management under Ross Lyon

[Beej]

M Gardiner - can hardly kick the thing. Injuries have taken their toll, he is finished in this game. A massive risk that has failed miserably.

C Gardiner - rubbish.

Dempster - a nothing player.

Steven King - not up for it. He's lost his hunger after last year and is just after one last pay cheque.

The jury is still out on Birss.

All of the above would struggle to get a game at any other club atm.

Quick fixes and papering over the cracks is not the way forward.

[The Peanut]

M Gardiner - can hardly kick the thing. Injuries have taken their toll, he is finished in this game. A massive risk that has failed miserably.

C Gardiner - rubbish.

Dempster - a nothing player.

Steven King - not up for it. He's lost his hunger after last year and is just after one last pay cheque.

The jury is still out on Birss.

All of the above would struggle to get a game at any other club atm.

Quick fixes and papering over the cracks is not the way forward.

In regards to list management we haven't been going all that badly - admittedly Kingy was down a bit on Friday night and may be past his best but its still a little early to say that for sure.

As for Gardiner - I think he is going along pretty well - just a pity he can't start off at his peak - but who can?

We are not just going for secondhand players - at the same time as the patch-up we are developing some young players that appear to have huge promise - and to cover most positions.

Birrsy is only ever going to be an 'honest player' in 'what you see is what you get', however he has done some good jobs for us since we picked him up.

As for the others you mentioned and the one you didn't, we have to take the good with the bad - Its a big list overall and although our aim would be to get it perfect, it doesn't happen over-night. - The recruiting staff have only had 1.5 recruiting seasons with RL so far.

[mad saint guy]

Recycled players recruited under Lyon

Shane Birss - Solid depth midfielder
Michael Gardiner - Was starting to build up some good form before injury. Next few weeks will decide his future
Matthew Ferguson - Ordinary flanker who was redrafted for no apparent reason
Matthew Clarke - Useless old ruckman
James Wall (r) - Excellent state league player but will never have the frame for AFL
Jayden Attard (r) - Ordinary tagger. Not worth senior list spot
Adam Schneider - Inconsistent and injury prone but reasonably skilled small forward
Sean Dempster - Ineffective tagger
Steven King - Reasonable backup ruckman
Charlie Gardiner - GOP medium forward
Fraser Gehrig - Risk that backfired horribly
Andrew McQualter (r) - Has some talent, but doesn't have the tools to be damaging in modern footy

Of the 12 recycled players he's brought to the club, only 4 really deserve a spot on the list (Birss, M.Gardiner, Schneider, King).

The likes of Clarke, Attard, Dempster and Gehrig have been cheap, but they keep guys like Armitage, Geary, Allen and Steven from gaining valuable senior experience and do nothing to help our chances of a flag.

If we take more than 1 recycled (unwanted) player this year Lyon should bugger off.

For the record, here are some of the players available when we chose to top up instead of going for youth

2006
Pick 43 - Shane Birss, Michael Gardiner
Pick 44 - Brad Dick
Pick 47 - Kyle Reimers
Pick 48 - David MacKay
Pick 50 - Will Schofield
Pick 53 - Lindsay Thomas
Pick 55 - Robert Gray
Pick 58 - Daniel Connors

Pick 74 - Matthew Ferguson
Pick 78 - Bryce Campbell
Pick 79 - Jesse White
PSD Pick 4 - Adam Cockshell

PSD Pick 7 - Matthew Clarke
2007 National Pick 7 - Rhys Palmer
2007 National Pick 25 - Tom Collier
2007 Natinoal Pick 59 - Craig Bird
Rookie pick 10 - Sharrod Wellingham
Rookie Pick 16 - Jamie McNamara
Rookie Pick 17 - Michael Jamison
Rookie Pick 24 - Jake King
Rookie Pick 27 - Jarrod Harbrow
Rookie Pick 34 - Matt Campbell

It is far too soon to judge the 2007 draftees, but several who would have been available to us are already looking the goods.

[Boppa]

Jayden Attard (r) - Ordinary tagger. Not worth senior list spot

Did you actually watch any footy last year? [/code]

[Washedup]

M Gardiner - can hardly kick the thing. Injuries have taken their toll, he is finished in this game. A massive risk that has failed miserably.

C Gardiner - rubbish.

Dempster - a nothing player.

Steven King - not up for it. He's lost his hunger after last year and is just after one last pay cheque.

The jury is still out on Birss.

All of the above would struggle to get a game at any other club atm.

Quick fixes and papering over the cracks is not the way forward.

You are kidding yourself surely. You mention 2 ruckmen and that is definitely one area our team has improved, or would you have prefered to stay withour successful Rix and Blake combination

[mad saint guy]

Jayden Attard (r) - Ordinary tagger. Not worth senior list spot

Did you actually watch any footy last year?

Yep. Saw him go out there every week and try his guts out, but struggle to keep up with decent players and have absolutely no offensive impact. If you can't hurt the opposition by getting the footy and using it well then you have to be a damn good tagger to earn a spot, and Attard is not one.

[Otiman]

Cost of players recruited under Lyon.

Shane Birss - 1/2 of Pick 43, 2006
Michael Gardiner - 1/2 of Pick 43, 2006
Matthew Ferguson - Pick 74, 2006
Matthew Clarke - Pick 7, 2006 Preseason Draft
James Wall (r) - Pick 51, 2006 Rookie Draft
Jayden Attard (r) - Pick 62, 2006 Rookie Draft
Adam Schneider - 1/2 of Pick 26, 2007
Sean Dempster - 1/2 of Pick 26, 2007
Steven King - Traded for unused draft pick
Charlie Gardiner - Traded for unused draft pick
Fraser Gehrig - Pick 59, 2007
Andrew McQualter (r) - Pick 39, 2007

Overall cost - two fifths of fack all.

The only worthwhile pick we gave away is Pick 26 for Schneider. And considering ALL of these guys (except McQ after redrafting, and Wall) have played AFL for St. Kilda, that's a good return on not very much investment.

To say that these guys would have had their spots taken by young kids. Seriously... Picks 43, 59, 74?

It's not like we have traded Pick 17 for Watts, or whatever we traded to get Ackland and Brooks.

[Washedup]

Recycled players recruited under Lyon

Shane Birss - Solid depth midfielder
Michael Gardiner - Was starting to build up some good form before injury. Next few weeks will decide his future
Matthew Ferguson - Ordinary flanker who was redrafted for no apparent reason
Matthew Clarke - Useless old ruckman
James Wall (r) - Excellent state league player but will never have the frame for AFL
Jayden Attard (r) - Ordinary tagger. Not worth senior list spot
Adam Schneider - Inconsistent and injury prone but reasonably skilled small forward
Sean Dempster - Ineffective tagger
Steven King - Reasonable backup ruckman
Charlie Gardiner - GOP medium forward
Fraser Gehrig - Risk that backfired horribly
Andrew McQualter (r) - Has some talent, but doesn't have the tools to be damaging in modern footy

Of the 12 recycled players he's brought to the club, only 4 really deserve a spot on the list (Birss, M.Gardiner, Schneider, King).

The likes of Clarke, Attard, Dempster and Gehrig have been cheap, but they keep guys like Armitage, Geary, Allen and Steven from gaining valuable senior experience and do nothing to help our chances of a flag.

If we take more than 1 recycled (unwanted) player this year Lyon should bugger off.

Ok of your list 3 of your 12 are rookie listed players so if one of the 3 come through i dont see a problem there. Attard until he got injured was definitely holding his spot and probably would have been promoted
We virtually got Gardiner (a much needed ruckman) and Birss (as you say solid depth midfielder) for pick 43. No problem there i would have thought.
King and C.Gardiner came for the lofty sum of about pick #90 which wasn't utilised. Nothing wrong there either
Most people would have been happy to use pick #26 on Schneider alone, but we had Dempster thrown in also. Cant see a problem with that either
That leaves 3 left. M.Clarke was a miss but our ruck stocks were in a pathetic state. We gave away nothing to get him though, pick 7 pre season draft.
Ferguson came at pick 74 in the 2006 draft, not exactly throwing away alot to give him another chance
Gehrig definitely looks like a miss but at pick #57 it will be interesting to see whether that will actually cost us much at all.
I cant see too much wrong with what we got, compared to what we had to give to be honest

[st_Trav_ofWA]

M Gardiner - can hardly kick the thing. Injuries have taken their toll, he is finished in this game. A massive risk that has failed miserably.

C Gardiner - rubbish.

Dempster - a nothing player.

Steven King - not up for it. He's lost his hunger after last year and is just after one last pay cheque.

The jury is still out on Birss.

All of the above would struggle to get a game at any other club atm.

Quick fixes and papering over the cracks is not the way forward.

OLB you genrally have something of worth to contribute but this is a pile of crap mate

M gardiner was never a huge risk he cost nothing and his up side was a lot higher then just delisting him at the end of year down side , im not sure what it is that your talking about how he failed hes played some fair games and besides last week we havent lost with him in the team playing at the level he is at the moment is still 1000 times better then having Rix or Blake ruck for us .

Charlie again cost nothing showed some early form but again like at geelong proves he go's missing to often to be a real contributor , but all in all he is still better option then Brooks , i dont think anyone would consider Charlie a top up more a freebie extra to go with King

Dempster adds depth to the team thats all. hes not out there to be BOG hes there to negate his player .... thats it hes done that fairly well imo to date again dot really see him as a top up

King ditto to M Gardiner .. he wins the taps what more do you want ? its a big step up from losing all the taps under the previouse ruck combos

[saintsRrising]

I think that the above has totally ignored that the 2007 selections were also largely about providing for the future.


McEvoy our first pick..was never going to be a "this year player". It was all about the future.

Steven was an underage player taking whose "draft cost" was lower that it would be if he was an upper age player. From what I have seen this decision will pay off hansomely. Again he was nota "this year " playere...but one for our future...

Now Ross seems to be getting a huge bake from some above for his maturish players traded from other clubs...........(often ignoring his recruiting of kids including bottom age kids who cannot play yet which he is also doing...)

So anyway lets assume that he did not trade picks 43 in 2006 and 26 last year...and instead just drafted more players.

26 = say Marlon Motlop and no Gardiner and Birrs

43 = Kyle Reimers instead of Schnieder and Dempster

and no King or Charlie

This means that we could have had some extra late draft picks...none of whom would likely be good enough to be playing yet.

So the team against the Pies woulf have been. say......


ST KILDA
B: Leigh Fisher, Max Hudghton, Jarryn Geary
HB: Jason Gram, Sam Fisher, Brendon Goddard
C: Nick Dal Santo, Luke Ball, Leigh Montagna
HF: Matthew Ferguson, Jarryn Allen, David Armitage
F: Fraser Gehrig, Justin Koschitzke, Stephen Milne
Foll: Michael Rix, Lenny Hayes, Robert Harvey
I/C: Jason Blake, , Raphael Clarke , Andrew McQualter , Ben McEvoy





The fact is that RL inheriteda list full of flaws from GT and he is doing his best to rectify it througha combination of low cost players from other clubs...BUT mainly through draft picks of younger players including rookies for the Saints future.



I mean how many Rookies made it pre_Lyon???

How many are looking ok now???


We have aquired a body of good YOUNG talent under Ross.....but for some reason some seem to think that they should be ready to play now.

The reality is that very few players can today make an impact in their first year or two..and the ones that do are the exception and not the rule.


I think that Saints fans will be might pleased in several years time with what they will be seeing from Allen, Geary, Steven, McEvoy and others..

[meher baba]

It is true that we only traded away mediocre picks for most of our current recycled players.

This was also the case in relation to Ackland, McGough, even Watts (if you doubt me, just take a look at what was available below pick 17 in 2005). Brooks is a different story, but he looked like a young gun rather than a recycled player when recruited him.

My problem with our long list of recycled players is not the quality, but the quantity. They take up space on the list, they have a cost and they have effectively replaced the likes of TS 40, Murray, Brooks, Sweeney, McGough and other who I don't think really had much less upside than the likes of C Gardiner or Dempster.

So I have some sympathy both with MSG and OLB and with their critics.

[Beej]

The fact that we're getting some of these players for relatively cheap doesn't change a thing. Just having those players mentioned above on our list hampers the progress of the younger blokes.

The reason why we brought in cast-offs like Matty Clarke and King is because we thought they'd be short-term fixes to our problem areas and we'd be able to 'get by' until we unearthed some talent. Well, we're struggling and all they're doing is taking away valuable experience from the youngsters.

You bring in footballers like Clarke, King and Gardiner when you believe you're close to a flag, not when you have an eye on the future. If it wasn't for Lyon, those three would've never played at AFL level again.

I would take any other ruck combo in the league over King and Gardiner. It just smacks of desperation to me. Lyon looking for a quick-fix in an attempt to save his skin rather than building for the future.

In regards to Dempster, you would've thought that Lyon knew something that the footy world didn't when he moved for him. Turns out he probably knew a lot less. Absolute dross.

[evertonfc]

Jayden Attard (r) - Ordinary tagger. Not worth senior list spot

Did you actually watch any footy last year?

Yep. Saw him go out there every week and try his guts out, but struggle to keep up with decent players and have absolutely no offensive impact. If you can't hurt the opposition by getting the footy and using it well then you have to be a damn good tagger to earn a spot, and Attard is not one.

Well said - bang on the money yet again MSG.

[Dan Warna]

nothing wrong with individual trades, the problem is 1/3 of our list is now cluttered with the off throws of other clubs.

[Beej]

And anyone who thinks Charlie Gardiner is anything other than a decidedly average player just doesn't know their football IMO.

Take off the rose-tinters.

[Teflon]

Cost of players recruited under Lyon.

Shane Birss - 1/2 of Pick 43, 2006
Michael Gardiner - 1/2 of Pick 43, 2006
Matthew Ferguson - Pick 74, 2006
Matthew Clarke - Pick 7, 2006 Preseason Draft
James Wall (r) - Pick 51, 2006 Rookie Draft
Jayden Attard (r) - Pick 62, 2006 Rookie Draft
Adam Schneider - 1/2 of Pick 26, 2007
Sean Dempster - 1/2 of Pick 26, 2007
Steven King - Traded for unused draft pick
Charlie Gardiner - Traded for unused draft pick
Fraser Gehrig - Pick 59, 2007
Andrew McQualter (r) - Pick 39, 2007

Overall cost - two fifths of fack all.

The only worthwhile pick we gave away is Pick 26 for Schneider. And considering ALL of these guys (except McQ after redrafting, and Wall) have played AFL for St. Kilda, that's a good return on not very much investment.

To say that these guys would have had their spots taken by young kids. Seriously... Picks 43, 59, 74?

It's not like we have traded Pick 17 for Watts, or whatever we traded to get Ackland and Brooks.

Thanks for some perspective.sorely lacking here at times.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

PSD Pick 7 - Matthew Clarke
2007 National Pick 7 - Rhys Palmer
2007 National Pick 25 - Tom Collier
2007 Natinoal Pick 59 - Craig Bird
Rookie pick 10 - Sharrod Wellingham
Rookie Pick 16 - Jamie McNamara
Rookie Pick 17 - Michael Jamison
Rookie Pick 24 - Jake King
Rookie Pick 27 - Jarrod Harbrow
Rookie Pick 34 - Matt Campbell

It is far too soon to judge the 2007 draftees, but several who would have been available to us are already looking the goods.

Pretty sure you can't use a PSD pick on a 17 year old. Palmer and Bird would all have been off limits with that pick, not sure about Collier. Didn't realise that either Palmer of Bird were even available at all in the 2006 draft actually, but would have absolutely rather seen the Saints take a punt on Collier with 74 (he'd initially had big wraps on him from some in '06, but fell away not unlike a couple of the athletes from this year who didn't end up with anyone) than re-draft Ferguson... much happier with the '07 approach where they've taken that longer term view with very young draftees.

In general I really think when you're at the level of pick 74 we could have had someone like Jake King instead of re-drafting Ferguson, it can only be a philosophical discussion. It's interesting that Richmond has gotten guys like King and Foley out of their rookie list, both those guys have really busted their butts to improve quickly... but their talents ala Tambling and Delideo have been more mercurial (both could still be anything)... hard to say they'd have done as well in a different environment, they were hardly highly touted players.

I wouldn't have re-drafted Ferguson... but the only reason I actually complain about the pick is that he hasn't been used, so we might as well have had a youngster learning for the last 18 months as a player stagnating.

[rodgerfox]

I still don't really understand what the talk about individual players is about.

Clearly, you need your guns. Star players win games, and flags.

But really, there is alot of truth to the old adage "a champion team will always beat a team of champions".

I think we're using our list, and now development as a bit of a copout for the fact that Lyon can't get these guys to play as a team.

I mean hell, Toby Thurstans is a premiership player.

Armstong from West Coast is a premiership player.


These are guys (and there are hundreds of them out there) that in a different team - such as ours at the moment, we would be calling for them to be sacked.

[saintspremiers]

Had Lyon not recruited King and Gardy how would've our ruck division gone?

GT tried unsuccessfully for years with first-rate hack ruckman, and it got us nowhere (back in 04/05 we had such a strong midfield minus ruckmen that we could shark the opposition easily instead!).

There was and still is a lot of pressure for Lyon to deliver a flag and deliver it quickly IMO......perhaps a bit unfair, but that is the perception, and perception is everything.

With McEvoy and LVR we hopefully have a developing rucking team - time will tell on that front though.

In Summary, Lyon was on a hiding to nothing with respect to ruckman.

[Beej]

Had Lyon not recruited King and Gardy how would've our ruck division gone?

GT tried unsuccessfully for years with first-rate hack ruckman, and it got us nowhere (back in 04/05 we had such a strong midfield minus ruckmen that we could shark the opposition easily instead!).

I remember soon after Lyon was announced as our new coach that there was all this talk about how Lyon, unlike GT, rated ruckman and that ruckmen would be his number one priority.

So what does he do? He brings in Michael Gardiner who doesn't play a single game in his first season at the club and we begin the season with a ruck combo of Rix and Blake once again.

Now we're going with King and Gardiner and some suggest our ruck division has improved since the days of Blake and Rix. Although, one look at the ladder would probably suggest that it has made absolutely no difference to our side.

I still don't really understand what the talk about individual players is about.

Clearly, you need your guns. Star players win games, and flags.

But really, there is alot of truth to the old adage "a champion team will always beat a team of champions".

I think we're using our list, and now development as a bit of a copout for the fact that Lyon can't get these guys to play as a team.

I mean hell, Toby Thurstans is a premiership player.

Armstong from West Coast is a premiership player.


These are guys (and there are hundreds of them out there) that in a different team - such as ours at the moment, we would be calling for them to be sacked.

You're right, when you have that quality in most areas of the field you can accommodate for those less talented players, and those less talented players can look half decent with that quality around them.

Our problem is, though, that we have an alarming amount of Toby Thurstans running around in our colours.

[saintsRrising]

I remember soon after Lyon was announced as our new coach that there was all this talk about how Lyon, unlike GT, rated ruckman and that ruckmen would be his number one priority.

So what does he do? .

Lets see...over two years...

*he has obtained Gardiner and King. With question marks over Gardiner he also took M Clarke for one year with a cheap PSD pick as extra back up.

*Drafted McEoy with a No 8 pick.

*Recruited LVR asa rookie ruckmen

*Had recruited a giant of a kid as one of the NSW scholarship picks.

*From reports apponted Simon madden asa rspecialist ruck coach (though I must admit that I have not actually sighted him at the club).

*plus the promotion NSW scholoarship player who has spent some time in the ruck..though is said to be more ofa key postion player.


Now the above would seem to me that he has put a fair bit of effort into improving the ruck stocks at the Saints.

[yipper]

Had Lyon not recruited King and Gardy how would've our ruck division gone?

GT tried unsuccessfully for years with first-rate hack ruckman, and it got us nowhere (back in 04/05 we had such a strong midfield minus ruckmen that we could shark the opposition easily instead!).

I remember soon after Lyon was announced as our new coach that there was all this talk about how Lyon, unlike GT, rated ruckman and that ruckmen would be his number one priority.

So what does he do? He brings in Michael Gardiner who doesn't play a single game in his first season at the club and we begin the season with a ruck combo of Rix and Blake once again.

Now we're going with King and Gardiner and some suggest our ruck division has improved since the days of Blake and Rix. Although, one look at the ladder would probably suggest that it has made absolutely no difference to our side.

I still don't really understand what the talk about individual players is about.

Clearly, you need your guns. Star players win games, and flags.

But really, there is alot of truth to the old adage "a champion team will always beat a team of champions".

I think we're using our list, and now development as a bit of a copout for the fact that Lyon can't get these guys to play as a team.

I mean hell, Toby Thurstans is a premiership player.

Armstong from West Coast is a premiership player.


These are guys (and there are hundreds of them out there) that in a different team - such as ours at the moment, we would be calling for them to be sacked.

You're right, when you have that quality in most areas of the field you can accommodate for those less talented players, and those less talented players can look half decent with that quality around them.

Our problem is, though, that we have an alarming amount of Toby Thurstans running around in our colours.

And - instead they should have done what???

[JeffDunne]

Now the above would seem to me that he has put a fair bit of effort into improving the ruck stocks at the Saints.

I don't think anyone is questioning the 'effort' - they are questioning the results.

The previous coach is often maligned for his so-called dislike of ruckman, but we did put a lot of 'effort' and draft stock into the position when he was in charge.

'Effort' really counts for naught.

[mad saint guy]

Pretty sure you can't use a PSD pick on a 17 year old.

Yes you can. It is only the rookie draft where the player must be 18.

[Beej]

And - instead they should have done what???

PSD Pick 7 - Matthew Clarke
2007 National Pick 7 - Rhys Palmer
2007 National Pick 25 - Tom Collier
2007 Natinoal Pick 59 - Craig Bird
Rookie pick 10 - Sharrod Wellingham
Rookie Pick 16 - Jamie McNamara
Rookie Pick 17 - Michael Jamison
Rookie Pick 24 - Jake King
Rookie Pick 27 - Jarrod Harbrow
Rookie Pick 34 - Matt Campbell

I really liked the look of Wellingham against us. Missed a sitter but he is a beautiful mover. Will be a very good player imo.

Jamison would be straight into our side. Has kept some big names down this season including Bradshaw at the weekend according to reports.

Matt Campbell is playing some good stuff at the North. Would keep Milney on his toes.

Instead, we go for Michael Clarke who, if it wasn't for Rossco, would've retired at exactly the right time.

We wouldn't have had a ruckman, but we don't have a decent one now. Absolutely no point in getting some big, old, has-been just because he used to be a decent ruckman once upon a time, is there?