Lyon - Ego and Stubborn? Or Patient?

[rodgerfox]

Is Lyon's ego too big to alter his tactics and strategy?

Is he too stubborn?

He does come across in the media - particularly in the early days, as a smart arse. Often quite sarcastic with the press.

Do you think Lyon is so confident in his own abilities and ideals that he convinced they will work?

Do you think that the more the press start to apply the heat to him, his ego and stubbornness will make him dig his heels in and not budge?

Or is he simply a very good coach that is prepared to sacrifice his own win/loss ratio for the long term benefit of the club?

Remember, sacking a coach and bringing in an entirely new coaching team, plus adding about 7 new players into the team, then learning a new game plan takes time. We're only 28 games into his 'reign'.

I said this when we sacked the coach - we wouldn't be a threat again for 3-4 years.
It takes at least 2 years to adapt to a new coaching style, and by the time we've 'adapted' we'd then lose Max, Harves and Gehrig and naturally a few more as the new coach brings his broom through.

Meaning, 2010 is our next chance.

So, based on this we need to remember patience is what is required. When we so poorly timed the decision to sack a coach, we knew this is what would happen.

We can't sack another coach now. We need to give Lyon his time.

Good clubs have patience. Poor clubs panic.

We panic.

We can't this time.


I'm just pleased we have a guy who is coaching for the club, not for his resume.

[saintspremiers]

I'm just pleased we have a guy who is coaching for the club, not for his resume.

Hopefully he is both.....if he's coaching for the club, he should get the best results out of the cattle he's got/acquires, which can't hurt the resume either!

[rodgerfox]

I'm just pleased we have a guy who is coaching for the club, not for his resume.

Hopefully he is both.....if he's coaching for the club, he should get the best results out of the cattle he's got/acquires, which can't hurt the resume either!

Sure, we're failing in regards to effort and intensity. No doubt about that.

However, it's the easy way out to fall back to 'old habits' to pinch wins. If you keep falling back to old habits, you won't ever learn your new game plan.

The term 'well drilled team' is always associated with premiership teams. It takes years for all 22 players to become well drilled. The only way you do it is by consistently carrying out the same plan every week until you perfect it.

Often, this means you will drop games along the way.

[starsign]

Or is he simply a very good coach that is prepared to sacrifice his own win/loss ratio for the long term benefit of the club?

i wish I still shared your optimism, buts its diminishing every week, as are our supporters and the bums on seats forced to witness him trying to achieve what your suggesting.
And will his style of footy really benifit long term?
We seem to be the only club hell bent on playing it for 100 minutes each week, but it appears to be yesterdays game
Even the Swans only use it when the state of their game is assisted by it, and more often than not on the SCG where it takes much less effort to continally run from one end of the ground to the other
And other accomplished sides eg Cats can quickly switch to flooding, tempo ...call it whatever when its appropriate and adapt it to advantage
But it seems Ross' b all and end all, and as each week progresses i sense the players aren't exactly enjoying playing it...witness Max and BJ at times last night
I really think thyre p'eed off You can sense it , not playing for one another' which was taken on board last week but redigressed last night to the point where some appeared not even to basically put in for starters.

And whats the good of RL persisting with Goose and forcing us to effectively play one man short each week in defence?

i haven't got drawn into the long suffering thread on GT v RL
but i will say this in favour of GT he didnt tolerate blokes who go out their and not put in for the jumper ...Capuanno???

no wonder Max let fly last night!
a few weeks ago i would have said i hope your right, but i'm not so sure anymore, particularly as i watch our players now,.........
Thank heavens for the like of Lenny and Max , buts starting to show on rooeys face now and some of his body language
i think the team could well have had a gutful
anyway something is definitely amiss somewhere and we are descending in a downward spiral quickly

[CURLY]

It was player mistakes rather than poor coaching that first quater was evry goal was our mistake. I know we have to get games into BJ and Goose so short term Im willing to pay the price along with Baker while they find there best form. Lyon was behind the 8 ball having to play Kosi in the ruck for so long as not even Rixs worst critics could of seen him get flogged so badly.

[krabb]

Lyon is mesmerised by the sydney gameplan...he hasnt got it yet thats its old school and it doesnt work for anyone else but sydney.

We're an attacking side...and to put it simply nobody seems to know what the hell is happening out there.

Dal Santo's skills are being wasted...he cant play to his strengths because he doesnt have a clue what the hell he's supposed to be doing.

We can sack Lyon...too damn right we can..he's got one year left on his contract..and if he doesnt perform i expect us to sack him.

Is it my imagination or cant this guy put two words together?

I find it hard to understand what the hell he's saying half the time...so i can only imagine the problem the players have.

[Beej]

Rodge, what if Lyon is just not good enough?

Should we stick with him, regardless of form, in the hope that he'll one day get us going?

If we don't make the finals this year, I think he HAS to go.

Every season we waste brings us a season closer to a clear-out and a long rebuilding process.

[ace]

If you are going to replace a coach you need to know that there is a better available replacement.
This was the biggest mistake Rod Butterss ever made.
He sacked a coach because of his own personal reasons without considering who would be the replacement.
The choice came down to 2 photocoping machines from Sydney.
They chose the best photocopier from Sydney.
The following year a number of better and more experienced coaches became available but St Kilda was already committed to its' photocopier.
Now we are left with a coach whose game plan is past its' time.

Geelong has shown the benefit of first getting a coach with a game plan for the future and sticking with it.
St Kilda finished ahead of Geelong in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 despite massive injuries.
Before 2007 St Kilda sacked their coach, Geelong persevered and won a premiership.

The opposite is also true.
If the coach has the wrong game plan, you doom a whole generation of players to failure.

Left too long in the sun, Butterss melts.

[asiu]

imo

lyon is good enough

whether he can manifest the way , is another matter

we gotta stick fat

[meher baba]

I can't tell whether or not Lyon has a great ego, but I don't believe he has a lot of confidence in himself as a coach.

His story about himself that he tells everbody is that he is a technical/tactical genius fabulous technical coach who can work out all the moves on the training field so that match day is just a matter of putting on the cruise control and settling back. I heard Matthew Drain rabbiting on about this version of "Rossy the supercoach" last night on the radio briefly (before, mercifully by the sound of it, I had to go out and missed seeing the game).

To me, coaches who like to see themselves as brilliant tacticians with a fabulous insight into the game (Terry Wallace, Tim Watson, Rodney Eade and Gary Ayres come to mind as being others of this ilk) are trying to cover up their basic lack of leadership skills and confidence in their own judgement. Being past their prime as athletes, they probably feel a bit intimidated by/envious of the football prowess of those they are coaching and try to make up for this by showing that they have bigger intellects. When the players don't perform well, this is due to their failure properly to grasp "the plan": because, let's face it, they lack the intellect of the genius coach.

IMO the best coaches are either those who act as "one of the boys" and provide leadership from within the group - sort of the 23rd player sitting on the sidelines - or else are those who dominate the group through sheer force of will and personality (often, in the latter case, being silent men who only speak when they have something important to say). I have never had much time for the arty farty, chatty, pseudo-intellectual sort of sporting coach. And I fear Lyon is one of them, but not even a particularly clever variety.

For that reason, rodgerfox, I fear that the longer we persist with Lyon, the further up the creek we'll go. I still hope I'm wrong. At any rate, I suspect I'm going to find out sooner rather than later: a loss against the Tigers would see the media begin to turn on Lyon and prompt the usual sort of "we have every faith in Ross" comment from Westaway: and we'll be well on our way to the inevitable conclusion. Likewise, even if we beat the Tigers and then lose a few in succession after that, the media will start sharpening the knives.

If we can beat the Tigers and win a few more - including, perhaps, beating a club rated higher than us - then Lyon will be safe for the rest of the season. But I'm feeling pretty pessimistic ATM.

[tweedaletomanning]

gotta agree with Ace here...Smells way too much like 1999...Should we have persisted with "timmy". ? Either way, it's not even fun to watch us play anymore...and THAT's whats important....if we do not perform this year then watch the devastating spiral effect it will have on the club and membership....our "game plan" is simply wrong.

[Mr Magic]

This was the biggest mistake Rod Butterss ever made.
He sacked a coach because of his own personal reasons without considering who would be the replacement.

This is the whole problem with the GT/RL (etc) 'debates' on here.
People pass their opinions off as facts when they are not.

Rod Butters told you that was the reason did he?
Did he tell you how he also convinced the Board to go along with him?

Revisionist history - a staple for some on Saintsational.

[The_Dud]

Ross came to the club with a pre-concieved gameplan (which has become obsolete) and wanted to change the playing group to fit this gameplan, not develop a gameplan to fit our playing list

we will get nowhere with our current style of football, no matter how many years we persist with it

our premiership chance is NOW, not in 4 years

Ross is wasting our current talent, not allowing them to play to there best ability

we don't need to sack Ross, we need to change the gameplan

now if the only way we can do that is by sacking Ross, then so be it

[rodgerfox]

Rod Butters told you that was the reason did he?
Did he tell you how he also convinced the Board to go along with him?

Revisionist history - a staple for some on Saintsational.

It was personal.

[Bernard Shakey]

Dud, I love you.

You have hit the nail on the head, which I have been saying for a while.

Lyin needs to adopt a game plan that suits the playing list, not get the playing list to adopt a game plan that will never work.

If we continue down this line we will miss the finals 2 years in a row and I would suggest Mr Lyin will be looking for a job.

[nicola69]

Dud, the change of avatar is hysterically funny. About the only laugh I have got out of the footy this weekend.

On the subject of how RL got the job, some have made a point out of the fact the Robert Walls was hired as a consultant and this gives the selection great credibility.

Has anyone ever listened (I'm being serious here) to Robert Walls? His analysis of the game is inane. He opens his mouth only to emit meaningless gibberish that is dressed up as some obscure branch of nuclear physics. Whenever I hear him on the radio or the TV I have to grab a drink to stop myself from laughing to death at his sophistry. He is clearly amongst the very, very worst of all the paid pundits in the media and let's face it most of them are pretty bad if they're not just calling the game.

We would have done better to have got Rex Hunt to pick our next coach. In fact, come to think of it, we would do better full stop if we made Rex Hunt coach tomorrow.

[kalsaint]

Maybe I'm slow or something but did Ross come with the preconceived idea that we would lock the ball up at all times, cause stoppages at all times, handball incessantly, not kick to our forwards directly?

No, he came with the idea of increasing accountability of players to defense and not completely failing to address offense.

I clearly remember Ross stating a need for this club to gain some scoreboard values from our midfield. When we do this we win games like against Eseendon. This is still a key need but we need to use the corridor for this (a la Eagles of 2005-06 and Geelong/Bulldogs 2007-08)

I clearly remember Ross saying that we needed to have a plan for ruck contests and clearances (a la Sydney if you like). Two options (Gardiner and King) presented this year and everybody seemed to be on board. For the record, I had reservations on additional tall players being needed for the team and still overrate the value of ruckman in todays game.

I still rate Gardiner and King as needed members but we also needed to delist 2 talls or tallish players for shorter, running type players to offset this. The reson for the need for running players is that others need to address the needed forward pressure. I rate this higher than ruck contests / clearances as forward pressure causes turnovers. Turnovers are now the basis for quick rebound footy. This is something we dont do well now as we are too slow and lacking in team confidence.

We are slow because we didn't offset Gardiner and King with deleitons for smaller runners.

Our current dillemma is now when to introduce some youth. IMO this is needed right now. This will increase enthusiasm, motivation and team play.
Older players seem to protect younger players. Younger players take the position of older players and this provides motivation to the older blokes to hold their spot. Just ask Thompson, Powell, Guerra, Hammil etc. These guys all provided that famous forward and midfiels pressure needed.

Younger players provide a level of unpredictability for opposition sides and creat that spark often needed on game day when the coaches game plan just isnt being executed. Look at Essendon in that third quarter effort against us as an example. It wasnt their stars causing the turnaround then.

Go for youth, breed some unpredictability, create team motivation, selfless acts and the play with start to go down the corridor and the goals will then start to beat the behinds tally most weeks.

The question is; Will Ross make some change to ensure that the team effort is bred and sustained. Currently this is my biggest concern right now with St.Kilda. They aren't playing for each other.

[matrix]

i think our photocopier is running out of ink......

[starsign]

i think our photocopier is running out of ink......

maybe we need to pull the plug
and get a more up-to-date model....
a colour one with a few more options instead of this out dated basic black ink one

[barneyboyz]

imo

lyon is good enough

whether he can manifest the way , is another matter

we gotta stick fat

The way I see it there is 3 out of every 4 posters here with a better plan for the Saints, 9 out of every 10 better coaches and the same old same old.

we all are frustrated with things, but you have to have a step back from the raw emotion sometimes. Not one game since the final we won this year have we been able to get any real confidence, that's for us & the team, but there has been good signs, with several quarters etc. where we played great footy.

It's not been our 'want to flood' that's caused problems, it's been the sheer pressure from other teams flooding. now apart from the Port game, where not only todays Saints players have struggled, but for years now we have and it's gotten into their heads.

remember, we have always recently had patches (of games in a row) where we look ordinary only to get a good win and move forward.

Two other things,

1) in 97, after 5 rounds Stan Alves couldn't coach either &

2) the first 3 years of Thommo's career, we were asking for his head too

Both blokes could coach well, did coach well and had some limited success, Ross can coach well, will coach well and deserves to be given the opportunity, if we don't win the flag with this current team, then they just aren't good enough, simple fact! but we shouldn't cut a coach just because 'we' get paniced

[mischa]

a loss against the Tigers would see the media begin to turn on Lyon

No that will never, ever happen. Expect more M.Voss type articles.

[bergsone]

i agree dud ,who do you suggest .coach-n.daniher.a/c-n.burke.maybe

[duckduckduckgoose]

good post rodger.

Let's not forget that RL isn't blind.
I don't think he's a masochist either.
Therefore i'd doubt what we served up last week was what Ross has wet dreams over.
He's been employed to win us a flag- I say give him 5 years.

Oh and in the interests of full disclosure, I was a fan of GT and didn't think he should have been canned.
But here we are- deal with it.