The Great 'Pace' Debate

[rodgerfox]

Ok, the popular theory right now is we can't win because we're slow.

What I'm particularly interested in, is why people think this?

And probably more to the point, what is pace or speed?

And even more importantly, what does this supposed lack of speed actually prevent us from achieving?

Is the lack of pace, referring to burst speed? Like Akermanis or Judd? Is it referring to Daniel Chick speed over 400m? Or David Wojinsci speed over 100m? Is it agility and being able to change direction at speed like Ryan Griffin? Is it closing speed like Max?

It's sounds a bit like a copout when I hear 'we're slow'. I'm interested in hearing exactly what is meant by that?


Secondly, what does speed get you? Are we talking about line breaking ability? Defensive spoiling? Winning clearances? Tackling?

Which of these is our achilles heel?

We are very good at clearance work, so I don't think speed holds us back in this area.
We have guys who are ranked highly in 'handball receives' so I don't think we have an issue with speed when it comes to receiving.
We don't play man on man these days so being outrun by your opponent isn't really a factor.

For the record, I believe we've had an issue with breaking lines for some time - it started back in 06.
We never recovered from losing Aussie Jones' line breaking ability, and his ability to hit a target once he broke the line. We also lost Goose's ability to break a line - but hopefully we get his back.

For mine, this is the area that 'speed' is lacking in our team. But this isn't a new issue. And also, I don't really put it down to outright leg speed.
Gram is fast and reads the play well, but has a pea heart and seems to play when he wants to. Almost seems content with where he's at.

Breaking lines is more about backing yourself than the actual speed in your legs. It's about confidence in yourself, and also confidence that the ball won't come back straight over your head to your man whilst you're still getting your breath back.

Watching Harvey waltz around Jordan McMahon against the Dogs last year summed it up to me. He made a guy who is about 30 times faster than him look like he was standing still.


So Saints fans, which aspect of 'speed' are we referring to when we say we're 'slow'? And what exactly is this costing us?

As I said above, I don't think we're physically slow as a team or as individual players. I just think we look slow and flat footed the way we're playing.

Teams that break lines and move the ball quickly look fast. We looked very quick against the Dogs in the first quarter, and looked pretty quick against the Cats too.

One more thing - being asked to sprint from one end of the ground to the other for 2 hours, will always take a bit of zip out of your legs.

[plumtire]

Running speed is one thing, but the saints are lacking one thing above all others at the moment and that is TOUGHNESS no mongrel about the team at all its clear to all that we are soft mentally and physically from where we where in 03/04/05/06 we have relied for too long on Hamill, Baker and Powell etc and this aspect of the game has not been replaced in my opinion

[Ice Wolf]

We are missing Brain speed, decision making seems to be shocking. The players should either act instinctively or think faster, none of this taking too long to make a decision and getting yourself or a team mate in trouble.

[Red]

I do believe we may not be one of the quickest sides in the competition,

but more importantly the guys who are reasonably quick in the side get

knocked off the ball so easily in a contested possession. Fiora, Gram, X,

Gilbert (although he will get bigger), L Fisher, NDS, Milne. They all seem to

be smaller than their opponents over the last two weeks.

[saint66au]

Even if we were..running, breaking lines and taking on your direct opponent for pace does not appear to be in our game plan

[BringBackMadDog]

Is Ling, Bartel, Corey, Enright, Selwood or Kelly any quicker than Dal Santo, Ball, Hayes, Fiora, Montagna, X, or Banger? I think our greatest issue is the ability to gut run when we dont have the ball plus our terrible kicking skills which are causing turnovers and we look slow because we have to turn around and start chasing arses.

[Richter]

Being able to kick accurately to a target makes a team look fast. Geelong were very good at that. Too often it looked like we were just pumping the ball aimlessly forward. We only have two accurate good 40-50 yard passers in Goddard and Dal.

BJ seemed to be played more in the midfield these last couple of weeks whilst Dal has been, by his standards quiet this season.

IMO when we rebound, get the ball into these guys hands more and we'll look quicker.

[fingers]

You're all right. We are missing the mongrel. We are not mentally tough enough. As far as leg speed goes. I think this is an overrated dimension. I have said all along that the ball will move faster through the air than anyone can run. We need to move the ball quickly not necessarily run quickly. Which implies playing instinctive "back yourself" football. Something we did in the first 1/4 against the dogs.

[jezza]

I would like to say that the question asked is excellent.

We lack brutal power with our Speed.Geelong's mid field are big units who have strong bodies and they use their size and power to break tackles and get through lines.

Our mid field might be just as quick but they lack power and strength esp when put under pressure in the 2nd Half.Geelongs mids have a couple of A grade mids.We thing Dell and Lenny are as well, but are they as good as Ablett and Chapman and then you throw Bartell in.

We lack real ball winning explosiveness and perpaps we have a couple of players who when it gets tight aren't as strong when the ball needs to be won.

If you look at the size of Geelongs running players they are well developed and they have this enormous explosive power which allows them to get out into space and move the ball quickly.

We lack a mid fielder capable of turning the game on its head.Dell is to easily shut down.They could release him a little by playing him at H/B Occassionly.

Joe gets a lot of ball Centre back.Not sure help many times he carries the ball inside 50.

Jezza

[Otiman]

The ability to put a gap on your opponent while on a lead, or running into space, so you can mark uncontested.

Geelong did this so many times against us, and we were tailing about 2 metres behind their players all the time.

It is the reason we are being killed across half forward and can't find avenues forward other than bombing long to our talls.

You get Fiora, tell him to be a leading half forward and not a midfielder, he can take a grab and deliver with precision (hopefully) with a low and direct kick to a forward target, giving them the best opportunity to beat their opponent.

I think you will find our inside 50's come from kicks closer to our back half than any other team. That's a LOT of air time for defenders to peel off their opponents to spoil the ball, because once the ball is in the air, there's only one place it can go.

[congorozides]

I agree that the pace debate is not simple. and often poor disposal and bad decions make u look slow cos u get caught more and turnover more.

i htink we lack someone with that iniitial 5-10 metre acceleration then can run out of tight places in stoppages - kerr for instance - although im sure i will get howled down on this because we won the stppages on the weekend.

either way. the same old things still matter in footy. and that head over the ball and being desperate and first in to win the ball when it is contested. thats we are losing. after that you need to dispose well and pick the right options. then u look fast because u have time and space.
but sheesh. right now we arent winning contested ball and whe we do get it we cant string more than 3 passes in a row. so we look slow in that situation.

[bigcarl]

you often hear in football that "you always look slow when you don't have it" and imo our problems are less to do with pace than mindset.

instead of worrying about what our opponents are doing we should be in there making the play and putting a score on the board.

it will click. it has to and it had better be soon.

[SENsei]

This conversation is going too fast for me.

[The_Dud]

pace is over-rated

[Solar]

some great posts in this thread and I think if people watch patches of that first quarter and a half against the cats you will see we can move the ball quickly. But it comes back to the midfield, I don't believe our midfielders work hard enough and share the ball.

We look our best and score well when we move the ball through the middle with quick handpasses, sheparding and running the lines. When our taller players take marks the mids need to be running past, into space created by their team mates, so that we not only get the 5 - 10 metres this gains us but the momentium behind the ball.

It feels like a group that are still getting used to playing with each other, working for each other. This is the first time we have had the same midfield group in there for a month! A little bit of confidence allows players to start not worrying about their stats and more on creating space for their team mates.

[iwantmeseats]

ANy doubts about our pace should be sorted by 10pm Friday night. Watch Essendon burn away into next week, even with 1 0r 2 quicks out. It will come to a head sometime.

[remboy]

Pace over the ground is one thing (and I don't we have it in abundance) but speed of ball movement is another and that is where we are getting ourselves in huge trouble.
Most of the problem seems to come from players second guessing themselves and not trusting their instincts. We don't seem to play on from marks and free kicks as much as our opponents and, as a result, by the time we go forward our forwards our grossly outnumbered.
Our key forwards never seem to have space to lead into and it's usually because we take so long to get it there the opposition have enough time to get numbers back.

[rodgerfox]

So far, from those who have posted in this thread there appears to be a bit of a consensus that we don't actually lack speed?

But moreso we lack speed in terms of moving the ball?

I agree.

If Gram gets off his arse and starts breaking lines again and puts the torp back in his kitbag, we'll look much faster across the ground.


We should have made a big play for Judd.

[saintspremiers]

Even if we were..running, breaking lines and taking on your direct opponent for pace does not appear to be in our game plan

there is one exception to this - X - he is prepared (when fully fit), to run straight and break it open.....sometimes he can't execute it, but the intent at least is often there......as someone else pointed out, he lacks some physical hardness perhaps due to his size.

[Red]

I think that fundamentally our players are a little selfish and don't work for

each other. I can't wait for Baker to come back in the side and start blocking

for NDS and Hayes allowing them to better hit up targets.

[Richter]

We should have made a big play for Judd.

That would have been great RF, but I don't really think that it would have made any difference - Judd was classy enough to realise that he didn't want WC to suffer in the trade and that high draft picks needed to be the priority - thus Carlton were always the logical option for him.

Last Sunday's performance by the Blues makes it like he made a pretty good fit in terms of how he fits in to their emerging team too.

We had our chance to get Judd in 2001 - never a hope we were gonna get a second one IMO.

[rodgerfox]

We should have made a big play for Judd.

That would have been great RF, but I don't really think that it would have made any difference - Judd was classy enough to realise that he didn't want WC to suffer in the trade and that high draft picks needed to be the priority - thus Carlton were always the logical option for him.

Last Sunday's performance by the Blues makes it like he made a pretty good fit in terms of how he fits in to their emerging team too.

We had our chance to get Judd in 2001 - never a hope we were gonna get a second one IMO.

It is interesting though, that we didn't show interest in Aker or Judd.

Both players who have that explosive pace that would be very handy for us. Both kick goals too.

Thomas was happy with our core. And based on the fact that Lyon hasn't traded any key players, I think he is too.

I wonder if he still will be come years end?

[Richter]

I must admit that I would have liked Aker too, at least interms of the on field attributes of the man. I don't think he would have fit personality wise at the Saints though. He's one of those players that you can't help feeling thinks he is bigger than the club - fits down at the doggies because he probably is. Also Rocket even more of a tool than he is so can keep him in line.