Poor Recruiting record

[cazper66]

One thing I fully support with regards to the "Footy First" ticket, is their claim of our clubs lack of resourcing when it comes to recruiting.
Aside from the early selections we have had in recent times, , our track record for the most part with our picks between 30 to 60 have been very poor. (With the exception of Sam Fischer of course) There are far too many examples of "misses" with these selections, and I fully endorse setting up the correct infrastrature to make our recruiting department more effective. The names Cain Ackland, Mark McGough, James Gwilt, Phillip Raymond and Justin Sweeney somehow don't stack up to players such as Mark Le Cras, Chris Knights, Justin Sherman, Matthew Egan and Simon Taylor, who by the way, were all picked up between picks 30 to 60.

[saintsRrising]

Ah another new poster...with their first post.

Good to see that we now seem to have both "camps posting"
Welcome.


Now we all want BETTER recruiting..

DETAILS please

[ausfatcat]

when you mention all those pickups theres only one per club!!!

The fact is Bevo did a brilliant job with the rescouces he had to get the saints recruiting up to par with other clubs (yes up to par but not exceeding). Saying that after pick 30 there is far from guareentees, also gilbert monty just off the top of my head were 30 plus in there drafts.

[ausfatcat]

saying above thou imagine if bevo had twice the budget???

[cazper66]

ausfatcat, not having a go at Bevo, IU think he has done a great job with the resources he's had at his disposal (which by the sounds of it wasn't a lot). I'm just happy to hear that the club will provide sufficient support moving forward to be able timprove the success rate of these higher picks. It seems to me that the interstate clubs have a solid resource base in the other states to be able to identify and pick up the Matt Rosa's from uner our noses (not just the Saints). It would be good to reverse the tables on them and steal some kids from their own back yards.

[saintsRrising]

saying above thou imagine if bevo had twice the budget???

Bevo is no longer the head training guy....



He has semi-retired though still acts asa "consultant" to us.

[ausfatcat]

hence why the word had saintsrising

[saintsRrising]

On recruitment..

It is not just throwing $$$$ at it but also needs to be about institutinga lot more science into it that Bevo was doing.

Bevo wasa product of his times...anda good assessor of raw footy talent.

But we need a more systematic and resoned approach , of which assessing raw footy ability is only buta part.

However our new ex-Cats recruiter will already be going about this....but yes well spent extra dollars will be good.

But just shunting Bevo intoa leer Jet will not be likely to achieve much added vlaue.

[meher baba]

I'm sick of this sort of argument. It's easy to go through past drafts and point out the players we should have picked up instead of the ones we got.

But Chips, Joey, Goose, Gilbert and Dal were all picked up with picks outside the top 10. Also, all of our top 10 picks have turned out to be successes (you might quibble about Raph, but he'd be the only one).

Not a bad strike rate IMO. You point to Ackland, McGough, Gwilt, Raymond and Sweeney as failures. Yet, two of those 5 played AFL in Round 22 of the season.

The only clubs anyone can seriously point to as having had a better strike rate than us in recruiting talent are probably the Eagles and Port: but, as I will post until I'm blue in the face, the ability of those clubs to use the WA and SA leagues as vast hothouses for rookies means that they do not represent a fair benchmark.

Nor does Geelong, which has been very fortunate in relation to the F-S rule.

[Iceman234]

Nor does Geelong, which has been very fortunate in relation to the F-S rule.

But surely that comes about through tradition and loyalty - a trait I hope the AFL never dispenses with.

[saintsRrising]

Easy MB...that may be our "alternate President" you are taking on

[Eastern]

Leigh Montagna was pick 37 from memory !!

[congorozides]

when you mention all those pickups theres only one per club!!!

The fact is Bevo did a brilliant job with the rescouces he had to get the saints recruiting up to par with other clubs (yes up to par but not exceeding). Saying that after pick 30 there is far from guareentees, also gilbert monty just off the top of my head were 30 plus in there drafts.

Scoff!
Good job my a$$. "with the resources he had" says it all. We need more sophisticated recruiting and when the players arrive we need better fast track programs. Other names not mentioned are Westhoff, Priddis, Marty Clarke, Risichelli. the list would be very long if you could be bothered.
Look at the Pies. I hate them but how can you explain them leapfrogging us in the past 2 years?? They had a few high picks but not many. The fact is their kids are better than ours and have been developed better. Come up with any excuses you want but I dont see good things down at st kilda fc. Gilbert has been awesome - but it seems we rely more on good luck than good management. That Collingwood team from the weekend had Shaw, SWan, Pendlebury, Clarke, Rusling, Thomas, Goldsack, Obrien and Cloke all under 23. Same can be said for Port and the Lions.
That is 9 guys under 23!

Now you can bang on about draft picks all day but clearly they are doing something - if not - many things better than us.
Who do we have under 23? Ball, Goddard, Gilbert, Raph. That is 4 under 23 compared to 9. Not friggin good enough.

We have some serious issues. People have their head in the sand if they think otherwise.

[spert]

Even back when GT took over I thought we lacked strength in the backline, lacked a good fast goalkicking midfielder, lacked a good half forward flankers and ruckman. Quite a few years down the track, nothing much has changed, and if anyone showed promise they usually were carrying long-term injuries. We need to improve in recruiting that's for sure.

[JeffDunne]

Has anyone done a statistical analysis of our drafting success vs other clubs?

I'd be surprised if our success rate is behind the industry average.

[meher baba]

Look at the Pies. I hate them but how can you explain them leapfrogging us in the past 2 years?? They had a few high picks but not many. The fact is their kids are better than ours and have been developed better. Come up with any excuses you want but I dont see good things down at st kilda fc. Gilbert has been awesome - but it seems we rely more on good luck than good management. That Collingwood team from the weekend had Shaw, SWan, Pendlebury, Clarke, Rusling, Thomas, Goldsack, Obrien and Cloke all under 23. Same can be said for Port and the Lions.
That is 9 guys under 23!

Well, the Lions certainly haven't leapfrogged us.

As for Collingwood, I'm not sure about all the players on your list, but they got Cloke and Shaw through the Father-Son rule and Thomas and Pendlebury because they were hopeless in 2004.

Anyway, I don't reckon that Collingwood are any better than us. Or Hawthorn or Brisbane or the Kangas or even Port for that matter. We have a terrific list: we just can't get it on the field fully fit and, when we do, we have been playing a very defensive style of play which doesn't suit us.

[borderbarry]

With last years drafting, our 3rd pick may end up being the best of the three.

[congorozides]

Look at the Pies. I hate them but how can you explain them leapfrogging us in the past 2 years?? They had a few high picks but not many. The fact is their kids are better than ours and have been developed better. Come up with any excuses you want but I dont see good things down at st kilda fc. Gilbert has been awesome - but it seems we rely more on good luck than good management. That Collingwood team from the weekend had Shaw, SWan, Pendlebury, Clarke, Rusling, Thomas, Goldsack, Obrien and Cloke all under 23. Same can be said for Port and the Lions.
That is 9 guys under 23!

Well, the Lions certainly haven't leapfrogged us.

As for Collingwood, I'm not sure about all the players on your list, but they got Cloke and Shaw through the Father-Son rule and Thomas and Pendlebury because they were hopeless in 2004.

Anyway, I don't reckon that Collingwood are any better than us. Or Hawthorn or Brisbane or the Kangas or even Port for that matter. We have a terrific list: we just can't get it on the field fully fit and, when we do, we have been playing a very defensive style of play which doesn't suit us.

F*** - ive heard this same thing about getting them on the park for the last 4 years. Im jack of it. AARON HAMMIL IS WASHED UP. MOVE ON.
As I said - we arent doing fitness good enough. We arent doing rehab good enough. We arent doing recruitment good enough. My point about the above players is that however you get them - F-S, draft, fallen off the back of a truck or from a potato farm in County Cork - Once you have them you must make them the best players they can be. I dont care about draft picks or injuries. I just want the 22 guys that run out every week to be playing close to their potential and to be professional. thats all i ask. I dont believe we are doing that.

I dont care who you are or what your pedigree is. Once you are part of the club i want to see you make progress and improve as a player. We have too many players not improving and not developing.

IM happy to name them if you like. It will be a long list!
Brooks, Gwilt, Watts, McG, Ferg etc etc etc.

And for the record POrt and COllingwood ARE better than us! How do I know? They won more games of footy than us this year.

[congorozides]

Has anyone done a statistical analysis of our drafting success vs other clubs?

I'd be surprised if our success rate is behind the industry average.

How do you figure this? 2 years ago POrt won a Premiership. They won the Minor premiership 3 times and therefore got nothing in the Draft. in 2007 they still finished 2nd. Please tell me how we have been equal to them?
Its time to get your head out of your a$$es. We played brilliantly in 2004 and were unlucky with Hammils injury and a few other things. But since then we have gone backwards. And My point about our lack of players under 23 shows we are not looking like reversing this decline. If so, please tell me how we can reverse it when we have hardly any good players under 23?

[congorozides]

when you mention all those pickups theres only one per club!!!

The fact is Bevo did a brilliant job with the rescouces he had to get the saints recruiting up to par with other clubs (yes up to par but not exceeding). Saying that after pick 30 there is far from guareentees, also gilbert monty just off the top of my head were 30 plus in there drafts.

one per club? - I just named 9 collingwood players that won a final on the weekend under the age of 23!

[JeffDunne]

Has anyone done a statistical analysis of our drafting success vs other clubs?

I'd be surprised if our success rate is behind the industry average.

How do you figure this? 2 years ago POrt won a Premiership. They won the Minor premiership 3 times and therefore got nothing in the Draft. in 2007 they still finished 2nd. Please tell me how we have been equal to them?
Its time to get your head out of your a$$es. We played brilliantly in 2004 and were unlucky with Hammils injury and a few other things. But since then we have gone backwards. And My point about our lack of players under 23 shows we are not looking like reversing this decline. If so, please tell me how we can reverse it when we have hardly any good players under 23?

"industry AVERAGE"

Yep . . . that's what I thought I said.

[congorozides]

["industry AVERAGE"

Yep . . . that's what I thought I said.

Yeah i know thats what you said. But im having a rant! So i dont want facts to get in the way!

would be interesting to do though. you could get draft picks and give them a weighting so an erly pic gets a low weighting and a late pick gets a high weighting. Then combine that with the players output and get a stat on it. would be interesting. For example Sam Fisher would have a high weighting for being late in the draft plus a high score for performance giving him an extra high score. Kosi would have a low weighting for his draft pick and a moderate weighting for his performance giving him a low to moderate score etc etc.

[JeffDunne]

Here's a very crude analysis of the St Kilda vs Port (and I mean crude)


St Kilda



Port Adelaide





If you look at the full lists and the games returned, I can't say I'm that impressed by Port's performance vs ours.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-st-kilda-saints

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td-p ... aide-power

(I presume these are correct but I did note one error in listing Kosi as a priority)

[CURLY]

Please dont compare our list to that of Collingwood and say they are better because of games won. Swap our draw with theres for one and the win loss ratio would be the same. Freo at the G on a 5 degree Friday night hardly compares to our road trip with 24 fit players and didnt play Port at Port so theres another loss they didnt encounter. Stats about players under a certain age mean jackshyte as people alter there list to suit there arguement eg St kilda has the best group under 25 but if I said 23 its not as impressive. When comparing these other young talents lets see how they perform when they havent got the cream arond them like Priddis Rosa Lecras this Friday and Goldsack play on Barry Hall and Fev as Gwilt had to. Our list is very good all we need is them on the park.

[saintly]

Look at the Pies. I hate them but how can you explain them leapfrogging us in the past 2 years?? They had a few high picks but not many. The fact is their kids are better than ours and have been developed better. Come up with any excuses you want but I dont see good things down at st kilda fc. Gilbert has been awesome - but it seems we rely more on good luck than good management. That Collingwood team from the weekend had Shaw, SWan, Pendlebury, Clarke, Rusling, Thomas, Goldsack, Obrien and Cloke all under 23. Same can be said for Port and the Lions.
That is 9 guys under 23!

Well, the Lions certainly haven't leapfrogged us.

As for Collingwood, I'm not sure about all the players on your list, but they got Cloke and Shaw through the Father-Son rule and Thomas and Pendlebury because they were hopeless in 2004.

Anyway, I don't reckon that Collingwood are any better than us. Or Hawthorn or Brisbane or the Kangas or even Port for that matter. We have a terrific list: we just can't get it on the field fully fit and, when we do, we have been playing a very defensive style of play which doesn't suit us.

of course the lions have leaped frogged us.

the lions have won 3 premierships and are beginning the rise again.

collingwood have much better facilities much more development coaches, kicking coaches, ruck coaches etc
port won a premiership and only a few years later are back to being 2nd .

hawthorn has done what the saints did stay down the bottom for a number of years to rise up. the things they have done is to sell off their older players for picks, pick very few older players.