Did I hear Leigh Matthew say

[B.M]

The impact of a coach is overrated?

Where have I heard that before??

Lethal is really the godfather of footy - is never scared to cut through the crap and speak his mind rather than the dribble most spruke.

He always makes sense, because h keeps it simple and says it how it is!

Wanna know why we lost vs Melbourne
Steven May and Christian Petracca
Definitely not because of Simon Goodwin

We won most stats
But couldn’t score because of May
And they scored because of Petracca

Coach (Ross) wasn’t able to quell either

[Otiman]

I didn't hear that, but I think match day the head coach role isn't as impactful as it once was. Yes they are responsible for all of the outcomes but they don't have as many levers to pull as you think.

Set up the systems
Set up the expectations
Set up the assistant coaches to react as needed
Co-ordinate between the coaches
Give the players a pep talk
Make a few positional calls as needed

[scallopsroe]

You need a General and their line commanders directing the troops on the ground, otherwise a shambles and confusion on the frontlines will quickly develop.
Applies to a physical contact sport as well.

[CQ SAINT]

For the last month, Petracca couldn't hit the side of a barn
May is the best interceptor in the league.
King and Cordy sort of made May's job a lot easier and Seb or Battle may have been handy making Petracca more accountable.
But yeah. Lets go with philosophy from LM and then whitewash it with your uninformed dribble and attacks on the coaches..
We lost because guys like Billings choke on goals they should kick in their sleep.
Phillipou hit the man on the mark and the goal post and he then he is tired, struggling and needs a rest but, if he kicks them and we carry a lead till 3/4 time, he becomes a warrior.
On Saturday, Petracca didn't choke, Melbourne kicked exceptionally straight against a monthly trend and May was playing kick to kick with Marshall.
The fact we were still in the game at 3/4 time is testament to the coaching panel and their ability to respond to live adversity.
Once the game is over, you review the learning and move on with your plan.
Then the media write their articles and the plebs read them and make 'informed' comments using hindsight.

[saynta]

Over the past few weeks the downhill skiers kicked 29 goals 61 behinds, then the see you next tuesday's kick 7.2 at one stage and Petracca who was on 1.9 kicks 4 straight. Unfucking believable.

[B.M]

Attacks on coaches

Haha

You want to believe coaches make a difference because you think we have a great coaching panel, thus will be a great team

Here’s something
Last year we won 11 or 12
This year we will win 11 or 12

Why
Because we have almost the same list

Lethal
He just validated my ‘dribble’

Coaches have there place - but aren’t the panacea the industry leads you to believe- but dumb fk supporters swallow it up because they have little clue


Coaching adds about 10% to the playing list

[Yorkeys]

Attacks on coaches

Haha

You want to believe coaches make a difference because you think we have a great coaching panel, thus will be a great team

Here’s something
Last year we won 11 or 12
This year we will win 11 or 12

Why
Because we have almost the same list

Lethal
He just validated my ‘dribble’

Coaches have there place - but aren’t the panacea the industry leads you to believe- but dumb fk supporters swallow it up because they have little clue


Coaching adds about 10% to the playing list

From a slightly different angle: I think (some) coaches can really stuff a side/club if they are not a good fit*. I also think the luck/good fortune a coach brings is crucial.
I don't yet see Ross as a lucky coach. Actually the opposite, which can negate technical brilliance. Lucky in life and love maybe but boy have we upset the footy gods for a few years now. Even sacrificing Ratts doesn't seem to have appeased them.
Hope Ross gets a few lucky breaks (no pun) soon and we can ride on them.

* Alan Richardson: had that deceptive veneer of being ok but was human quicksand coaching wise. Unluckiest thing was when we flogged Richmond (2017?). Our management took that as a sign of greatness for years until that delusion faded.

[Life Long Saint]

As my Dad always used to say to me as we were walking back to the car from Moorabbin Oval in the 80's...You can't make raspberry jam out of horse s***.

It's true the team makes the coach, but a good coach can make enough difference to be top two instead of top four, top four instead of eight. Finals instead of just miss.
There is no doubt that our list is not good enough for us to contend for a flag. Not even close. It's astonishing to me that we are even as high on the ladder as we are, given our skill level across the ground. The coaching group must take some of the credit for that.

I like Brett Ratten. And I like Ross Lyon. Both are good coaches, but Lyon has a way of looking at the game and getting the best from the list that Ratten didn't possess.
We won early games because we were much fitter than our opponents. We simply used speed and endurance to outnumber at contests and force turnover. That is not a sustainable model given the young players in the team and the teams that played finals the previous year eventually catch up on fitness from the missed pre-season weeks.

After round five, it became evident that no game plan can survive our skill level. We are our own worst enemy. That's not coaching and every coach we've had post 2011 has suffered the same issue.
We draft good players, but turn them into mush. If it's not foot skills, it's decision making, or missing gettable goals, or missing tackles.
Our player development system needs a massive overhaul. Only when you can trust the execution of basic football skills, can you then devise an effective game plan around it.

[Life Long Saint]

From a slightly different angle: I think (some) coaches can really stuff a side/club if they are not a good fit*. I also think the luck/good fortune a coach brings is crucial.
I don't yet see Ross as a lucky coach. Actually the opposite, which can negate technical brilliance. Lucky in life and love maybe but boy have we upset the footy gods for a few years now. Even sacrificing Ratts doesn't seem to have appeased them.
Hope Ross gets a few lucky breaks (no pun) soon and we can ride on them.

* Alan Richardson: had that deceptive veneer of being ok but was human quicksand coaching wise. Unluckiest thing was when we flogged Richmond (2017?). Our management took that as a sign of greatness for years until that delusion faded.

I see your Alan Richardson and raise you a Tim Watson!

[asiu]

You can't make raspberry jam out of horse s***.

classic

[B.M]

What year should Alan Richardson have played finals?

He actually hit the list at the worst possible time - the start of a rebuild - and we bungled everything- the decision to offload stars for picks - poor draft choices. He was subject to TERRIBLE list management decisions!


BTW
Our development program has just had a major overhaul

What is wrong with it?

We put a lot of resources into it and completely control Sandy with our coaching

[Yorkeys]

From a slightly different angle: I think (some) coaches can really stuff a side/club if they are not a good fit*. I also think the luck/good fortune a coach brings is crucial.
I don't yet see Ross as a lucky coach. Actually the opposite, which can negate technical brilliance. Lucky in life and love maybe but boy have we upset the footy gods for a few years now. Even sacrificing Ratts doesn't seem to have appeased them.
Hope Ross gets a few lucky breaks (no pun) soon and we can ride on them.

* Alan Richardson: had that deceptive veneer of being ok but was human quicksand coaching wise. Unluckiest thing was when we flogged Richmond (2017?). Our management took that as a sign of greatness for years until that delusion faded.

I see your Alan Richardson and raise you a Tim Watson!

Touche!
With emphasis on ouch.

[Life Long Saint]

What year should Alan Richardson have played finals?
He actually hit the list at the worst possible time - the start of a rebuild - and we bungled everything- the decision to offload stars for picks - poor draft choices. He was subject to TERRIBLE list management decisions!

Probably 2016. We went 12-10 and missed on percentage which was terrible given the W/L record. Our percentage was 95.7. That's barely an FM station frequency.

Big losses in that season that teams with that record shouldn't have endured.
-103 to West Coast.
-88 to Adelaide.
-70 to Sydney.
-57 to the Dogs
-47 to GWS
-33 to Port (after leading all day)
Significantly the top three were interstate...That was typical of our form. We did not travel well at all. We went 0-5 interstate that season, including a 40 point loss to the Suns.

BTW
Our development program has just had a major overhaul

What is wrong with it?

We put a lot of resources into it and completely control Sandy with our coaching

What's wrong with it? It's taking talented kids and turning out mediocre skilled footballers.
Just because we control Sandy, doesn't mean that it's effective.
The majority of our good players did not develop with us. There's something in that!
Steele, Marshall, Wilke, Hill, Jones, Stocker, Wood, Butler, Higgins, Hayes, Howard, Membrey, and Crouch were never drafted to us as 18 year olds. All starting 22 when fit. That's over half the team!
You also have Sharman and Caminiti on the edge of that.

I am bullish about NWM, Owens, and Windhager. I like Clarke, and Battle.
But too many others have serious question marks over their abilities.
Seb Ross is a classic example. How nobody has told him to stop running to his right when he gets the ball is beyond me. He's a left footer and not that crash hot on his right. Watch him...He's like Zoolander...Can't turn to the left!
Gresham's delivery by foot is suspect.
That's poor player development.

Sinclair is the exception to the rule.

[D.B.Cooper]

The impact of a coach is overrated?

Where have I heard that before??

Lethal is really the godfather of footy - is never scared to cut through the crap and speak his mind rather than the dribble most spruke.

He always makes sense, because h keeps it simple and says it how it is!

Interested to understand in what context Leigh was making the comment.

Was he generalizing across AFL, all sports or was he speaking about what happens once the game is underway and how a coach can or cannot influence a game from the coaching box.

I do agree somewhat, that coaching can be overrated.
I guess the first instinct of coaching is similar to a first responder or medical professional, do no harm.

In regard to coaching, I have been exposed to Olympic level sport and can categorically state coaching in individual sports such as swimming and track & field is critical to development and results.

In AFL and other team sports IMO the head coach is a critical piece of the jigsaw puzzle along with club stability, strong administration, recruitment, player development, strong assistant coaches and behind only playing list in level of importance. None come together without each piece being in place.

Where I disagree with your opinion BM is on leadership, I understand you didn't need a coach or a captain to inspire you in your sporting career, but many do and strong leadership and direction has shaped many careers.

At St Kilda currently, look at the way Mason Wood has taken NWM under his wing, NWM is a great talent but I have no doubt Wood's tuition is helping him understand what it takes to be an AFL player and assisting him fast track his development.

[Sebastian Tombs]

The impact of a coach is overrated?

WOW who would of thought! I think the best example of this would be our current AFLW coach who is big on structures and game plan , but very little of improving the girls basic skills

[Otiman]

It doesn't mean the long term impact of a coach is any less. In fact it's probably more.

Good strategy, team building, working on skills shortages and gameplan.

You don't do much of this on gameday, but it's much more important to success.

The game is between the ears and good coaches can make the most of this.

[Impatient Sainter]

You are half right/wrong BM.

Good coaches can help a great team challenge or win flags, poor coaches can make good teams look worse.

The Gold Coast and Collingwood are good examples of what decent coaches can do. GCS with their list they should have been playing finals for the past couple of years. Dew was a dud and held them back. McRae has turned Collingwood around and they are looking a real threat atm.

Our question is Lyon a better coach than Ratten? I think the proof is in how the players keep positively referring the teachings and game plan. Then the oft training watchers reporting how much more organised and professional our training is this year compared to past years. Our results are not that different thus far in the season, but injuries have cruelled the side to date. Lets judge Lyon to see who he can attract in this years trade period and another pre season to mould the group.

[SaintPav]

My understanding is that training standards at St Kilda have not been AFL industry standard for over ten years.

[Yorkeys]

My understanding is that training standards at St Kilda have not been AFL industry standard for over ten years.

Now you tell us!

[Scollop]

My understanding is that training standards at St Kilda have not been AFL industry standard for over ten years.

Now you tell us!

We don't have to fret about Petracca and Bontempelli any longer. They both would have turned out to be duds if they were at St Kilda

[Sanctorum]

What's wrong with it? It's taking talented kids and turning out mediocre skilled footballers.
Just because we control Sandy, doesn't mean that it's effective.
The majority of our good players did not develop with us. There's something in that!
Steele, Marshall, Wilke, Hill, Jones, Stocker, Wood, Butler, Higgins, Hayes, Howard, Membrey, and Crouch were never drafted to us as 18 year olds. All starting 22 when fit. That's over half the team!
You also have Sharman and Caminiti on the edge of that.

I am bullish about NWM, Owens, and Windhager. I like Clarke, and Battle.
But too many others have serious question marks over their abilities.
Seb Ross is a classic example. How nobody has told him to stop running to his right when he gets the ball is beyond me. He's a left footer and not that crash hot on his right. Watch him...He's like Zoolander...Can't turn to the left!
Gresham's delivery by foot is suspect.
That's poor player development.

Sinclair is the exception to the rule.

This has occurred to me as well, that for many years, in fact ever since Ross Lyon's previous stint as senior coach, development of young recruits by St Kilda has been sub-standard. You cite Seb Ross as one, you can add Jack Billings and Jade Gresham, and consider how in recent years Clark and Coffield (both 1st rdp) have so far failed to step up to a higher level that their natural talent indicated they should achieve.

Part of the problem with St Kilda is that unlike the traditionally successful clubs, Geelong, Essendon, Collingwood, Carlton, Richmond, it has always struggled to gain financial strength which has limited it's ability to provide elite training infrastructure for the players. While the new training facilities at Moorabbin are extremely good, I imagine they still pale in comparison with those at the aforementioned clubs.

It's still early days for the reincarnated Ross Lyin, but I'd be surprised if he is not totally focussed on rectifying this problem.

[Vortex]

It's still early days for the reincarnated Ross Lyin, but I'd be surprised if he is not totally focussed on rectifying this problem.

This is the great magic trick we are all waiting to see.

Greaaaaaaate coach!

But can he do what no other coach has been able to do at our club for a very long time which is procure a list capable of sustained success and bring in a flag.

Interesting listening to David Parkin on SEN this morning, recons the number for enough depth of quality to win a flag is a minimum of 25. We are well short if that.

Fascinating times ahead.

[B.M]

Most ex coaches overstate the impact of coaching because of how it reflects on them… they feed a narrative to the gullible media who eat the s*** up and then pass it on to simpleton fans who tend to believe what is written.

Lethal is a little different

He doesn’t have to hang his hat on being a 4 time premiership coach, he was also a 4 time premiership player, 8 x B&F and is widely regarded as the best player of the 20th Century

He doesn’t give a s*** about how he is perceived - he just simply tells it as it is!

Wankers like Malthouse would have you believe that coaches are the be all and end all… to push their own little agenda

Coaches are obviously needed and play an important role in team success - but DO NOT guarantee success. And what is a good coach - a premiership coach? A dual Premiership coach?? Allan Joyce?!

Blight - StK
Pagan - Carl
Sheedy - GWS
Eade - GCS
Malthouse - Carl
Barassi - Melbourne and Sydney
Jeans - Richmond
Roos - Melbourne
Simpson - WCE
Parkin - Fitzroy
Walls - Brisbane Bears
Hafey - Geelong

[B.M]

2016

We had a finals list

Pull the other one! How we won 12 games is beyond me
A 34yo Reiwoldt on 1 knee
A 33yo Montagna carrying a bit of weight

No Hayes, No Dal, No Goddard, No Milne, No Gram, No Kosi, No Blake, No Fisher

Jack Steven and Seb Ross leading the midfield
With Longer and Hickey!!!!

[Life Long Saint]

2016

We had a finals list

Pull the other one! How we won 12 games is beyond me
A 34yo Reiwoldt on 1 knee
A 33yo Montagna carrying a bit of weight

No Hayes, No Dal, No Goddard, No Milne, No Gram, No Kosi, No Blake, No Fisher

Jack Steven and Seb Ross leading the midfield
With Longer and Hickey!!!!

You didn't ask when did we have a finals list. You asked when should we have played finals...Actually the words you used were "What year should Alan Richardson have played finals?" Well he did it for Collingwood as a player. But I got the gist.
North Melbourne (8th, 12-10) should not have played finals that year with their list, but they did.
Eliminate some of the big losses that I mentioned before and increase the margins of some of our wins, and we would have played finals.
After the 103 point loss to West Coast, we sat 2-6 with a percentage of 78.3
After that, we went 10-4.
We had a good spread of tall forwards in Bruce, Membrey, and McCartin, and a 33yo Riewoldt that still managed 41 goals and 222 marks for the year...and 19 Brownlow votes (career high). If I recall, we were playing him a bit higher up the ground that season. He also had career high disposals that season.
In that run home, we beat Geelong and eventual premier Bulldogs.