Scapegoats v Overrated v Whipping Boys

[Ghost Like]

Is there a difference or do certain players get given more latitude than they genuinely deserve? Have some players credits run out? Injuries can only paper over so many cracks.

Byrnes - I tried so hard not to see his limitations but he has too many. Hard to imagine we do not have better.

Webster / Paton / Stocker - can we roll them into the one player? Finding it hard to say one deserves a spot more than the other but I know there's not 3 spots.

Battle - apparently a great bloke, just not sure he's a great footballer. The reasons he's now playing back and not forward are beginning to surface down back.

Howard - the poster boy for someone who believes they have better skills when they actually possess. Gets caught out of position, slow to find an option, let alone pick one.

Gresham - is playing himself out of a fat contract & us out of a half decent pick.

Ross - a two time B&F needs to stand up in games like this afternoon. I suspect he's out of form or confused by what the coach wants. He needs to lift dramatically or just pass the baton.

Steele - whatever is wrong with him needs to be fixed & quickly! If he is injured, rest. If he is now too light, he needs to hit Maccas. We cannot afford him playing like this & have (an out of form) Ross & Crouch in the same side.

Higgins - a howler at the end and (on its own, in isolation) cost the game but let's face it, he was building to that moment. A bit like the small defenders, I wish we could roll Higgins, Butler & Gresham into one.

The usually Whipping Boys, a.k.a. >>>

Butler - best of the small forwards, actually understands team work & selflessness.

Paton - not disgraced today but suspect will cop a caning.

Sharman - under rated & unappreciated. Will suffer from the return of Owens & Membrey but worth persisting with.

Byrnes - see above. I wish I could love him more but way too limited for such an important position that requires a skillset above his pay grade.

[Rubyjo]

Has there ever been a better post .

[Life Long Saint]

I think we've all gone early on Caminiti - Yes, he's young and raw, but we need composure. Too easily moved off the ball to be outmarked, and doesn't have the skills to be a lead up player yet. I've no doubt he'll be handy but hard to justify why we extended his contract so early. He's not in our best 23 when everyone's available. Hard to see how he was preferred over Membrey. Should be an out for the next game with Owens and Membrey back.

[Annoyedsaint]

Howard. The clown can’t defend to save himself.
Another best on ground for the opposition.
Battle not far behind.

Until we get some decent defenders then we have no hope unless it’s a full flood, then that results in f****** around with the ball as no one to kick to on the way out.

Compare it to Hawks defenders who knew what they were doing and either neutralised or marked it themselves.

We are such an embarrassing club.
Deserve all the ridicule we get.

[Rubyjo]

I think we've all gone early on Caminiti - Yes, he's young and raw, but we need composure. Too easily moved off the ball to be outmarked, and doesn't have the skills to be a lead up player yet. I've no doubt he'll be handy but hard to justify why we extended his contract so early. He's not in our best 23 when everyone's available. Hard to see how he was preferred over Membrey. Should be an out for the next game with Owens and Membrey back.

Members is concussed I assume

[Rubyjo]

I think we've all gone early on Caminiti - Yes, he's young and raw, but we need composure. Too easily moved off the ball to be outmarked, and doesn't have the skills to be a lead up player yet. I've no doubt he'll be handy but hard to justify why we extended his contract so early. He's not in our best 23 when everyone's available. Hard to see how he was preferred over Membrey. Should be an out for the next game with Owens and Membrey back.

Members is concussed I assume

[meher baba]

I don't get the hate for Howard and Battle. We lost the game in the middle rather than inside our defensive 50.

They had 58 inside 50s to our 43 and yet we were still leading the game with a couple of minutes to go. I would consider those stats to reflect favourably on our backline.

[B.M]

I’m watching Membrey play right now

[meher baba]

I do agree that the club will need to look at players such as Byrnes, Caminiti, Paton and Gresham. Membrey, Windhager, Bytel and Billings should all be considered seriously for selection in the next game. Ross does love his role players, but we need more skill in the middle and to a lesser extent up forward.

[Ghost Like]

I think we've all gone early on Caminiti - Yes, he's young and raw, but we need composure. Too easily moved off the ball to be outmarked, and doesn't have the skills to be a lead up player yet. I've no doubt he'll be handy but hard to justify why we extended his contract so early. He's not in our best 23 when everyone's available. Hard to see how he was preferred over Membrey. Should be an out for the next game with Owens and Membrey back.

Apologies LLS but it's a post / thought process like this that is the problem, certainly not a solution. The Kid was not the reason we lost a game we should never have lost. He's just one example of trying to get better. We lost in the midfield, we lost thanks to the (lack of) input & endeavour by our experienced & feted footballers. Midfield, Forward, Defenders...we had too many who continue to have bad days when it MATTERS.

[realdeal]

I don't get the hate for Howard and Battle. We lost the game in the middle rather than inside our defensive 50.

They had 58 inside 50s to our 43 and yet we were still leading the game with a couple of minutes to go. I would consider those stats to reflect favourably on our backline.

Battle had a shocker today but as a whole our defenders were like sitting ducks. The pressure from up the ground was horrendous.

It was like when you were young and playing keepings off where you'd wait for the kid chasing to get close and then just pop it over their head to the next person and so on....

Until finally they kicked a goal over the top or delivered to fwd under no pressure. The mids were late to tackle, didn't do it as a team, they didnt corral, and when they did tackle on time they were broken anyway.

Ross said Steele is fit and not sore and Windy is working on things, id suggest that there are players in the team that have more to work on and have done for about a month now...

[Otiman]

I'm not disagreeing with anything said in the first post, but think it's simpler than that. I also don't think any individual performance is to blame for any loss this year.

We have too many players who are pigeon holed to forward or back roles, and do not contribute, or are not part of the structure at stoppage clearance.

The load on ground ball contested possession including stoppages (read: the midfield group) is heaped on too few, and those few are having some bad games. The stats flatter Crouch this week.

I also think our training load is heavily run-based and not putting us in good shape for winning hard contested ball. The opposition teams now know this and are playing to that.

[Ghost Like]

The load on ground ball contested possession including stoppages (read: the midfield group) is heaped on too few, and those few are having some bad games. The stats flatter Crouch this week.

I also think our training load is heavily run-based and not putting us in good shape for winning hard contested ball. The opposition teams now know this and are playing to that.

God help those who have stats that don't flatter.

&

To be honest, I do not believe that fitter (run-based training) playing stock is the problem. The problem is the fitter playing stock.

[Life Long Saint]

I think we've all gone early on Caminiti - Yes, he's young and raw, but we need composure. Too easily moved off the ball to be outmarked, and doesn't have the skills to be a lead up player yet. I've no doubt he'll be handy but hard to justify why we extended his contract so early. He's not in our best 23 when everyone's available. Hard to see how he was preferred over Membrey. Should be an out for the next game with Owens and Membrey back.

Members is concussed I assume

Nope...Was named emergency today. Can't do that under concussion protocols.

[Life Long Saint]

I think we've all gone early on Caminiti - Yes, he's young and raw, but we need composure. Too easily moved off the ball to be outmarked, and doesn't have the skills to be a lead up player yet. I've no doubt he'll be handy but hard to justify why we extended his contract so early. He's not in our best 23 when everyone's available. Hard to see how he was preferred over Membrey. Should be an out for the next game with Owens and Membrey back.

Apologies LLS but it's a post / thought process like this that is the problem, certainly not a solution. The Kid was not the reason we lost a game we should never have lost. He's just one example of trying to get better. We lost in the midfield, we lost thanks to the (lack of) input & endeavour by our experienced & feted footballers. Midfield, Forward, Defenders...we had too many who continue to have bad days when it MATTERS.

Agreed we lost it in the middle, but I like a bit of experience to be on the ground.
Our forward line has been outgunned all year. I wanted to see how Membrey went with King next to him.
I would guarantee you that Hawthorn don't kick the last five goals if Membrey becomes that extra man in defence as he so often does. Taking the mark and steadying the side.

[saynta]

I do agree that the club will need to look at players such as Byrnes, Caminiti, Paton and Gresham. Membrey, Windhager, Bytel and Billings should all be considered seriously for selection in the next game. Ross does love his role players, but we need more skill in the middle and to a lesser extent up forward.

We lost this game at the selection table, imhfo that is. Higgins' dropped mark didn't help either.

[cwrcyn]

In his presser, Ross Lyon intimated that Billings will only be considered for a front half position, so the only players he will replace are Butler, Higgins, or Gresham. He basically ruled him out of playing wing of midfield.

Paton is one we need to really think about. His decision making is extraordinarily slow. Far too slow for AFL football. He only sees what's directly in front of him. To improve his game he needs to be sent back to Sandy and given some time to develop that side of his game. If he can't, well I don't see a great deal of value in playing him.

Byrnes is incredibly hard working and a player I'd love to see become a midfielder. However, for all his hard running, he doesn't find enough of the ball. At the moment he's having two good quarters a game, and two quarters where he's invisible. His lack of physical strength is a bit of a negative, unfortunately.

As for Howard and Battle yesterday, they had forgettable games, but with such a weak midfield performance, they were given an unenviable task. For the most part this season, Battle has been good and Howard okay

Ross was excellent for the first 6 rounds, but has dropped off the cliff, particularly in the past three weeks. Something is not right.

Steele is banged up, and it's showing. Was very good against GWS, but overall, his season so far has been forgettable. I'll blame it on injuries. He's a far better player than what he showed us today.

Sharman is quite talented, but I think he lacks belief. He also lacks aggression. If Lyon is keen to assess the playing list, he should give Sharman every opportunity to show what he's capable off. Had some very good moments in the third quarter

[Otiman]

The criticism of Paton, Battle and Howard is unwarranted in my opinion.

They are being held to account for their offensive efforts while ignoring their defensive.

This is probably Howard's best year with us. Battle is backing up a solid 2022. Paton has not had a loss against players he has been assigned to locking down.

This is why you have players like Sincs, Stocker, Webster playing behind the ball, to drive the offense.

Paton had some good offensive patches pre injury, and we are holding him to that standard.

Not everyone can be a Callum Wilkie.

[skeptic]

Ross was excellent for the first 6 rounds, but has dropped off the cliff, particularly in the past three weeks. Something is not right.

The problem with Seb IMO is that when he feels really comfortable, his effort drops off…
It’s a characteristic that has been evident throughout his career: a maniacal hunter that tackles, wins tons of ball and is the general of the midfield that makes things happen (the game winner we love) vs the guy that trots around the ground, gets 12-15 touches, slams the ball forward without looking and happy to miss a ball up to take a breather.

It’s why he’s always polarised the fan base… at times he looks elite, other times he looks like your cousin who you’ve asked to play this week because you need the numbers.

And at the moment, he’s playing like he doesn’t have a care in the world… I mean why would he worry about Bytel and Windy getting 30+ touches at Sandy week after week with blistering performances?
It seems like something I’d worry about if I were him but he obviously feels very safe.

It’s a part of RTB style/system that has always sucked.

One group of players will stop feeling the pressure to protect their spots in the top 22… another group will stop fighting hard to get in. Though I suspect we’re like a year away from that still

[B.M]

God that’s rubbish

[skeptic]

God that’s rubbish

So describe Ross’ last month

2 weeks of 12 touches… working hard enough for you Mart?

[skeptic]

I’m just going to add…
If Crouch or Clark regularly turned out 12 touch games and underperformed in a crucial game that we lost… you’d tear absolutely tear them a new one.

He’s always been a protected species for you

[Otiman]

I can only hope the bye was used as a trigger point for underperforming players.

"Well, you have had an average game(s), you've got until the bye to turn it around and then you're out".

You can't be trigger happy after a single game, but also can't accept mediocrity for too long.

The bye is a good a time as any to reload.

[whiskers3614]

Was it my imagination or did Stocker twice in the last quarter over-focus on his opponent and lose sight of the ball?

[meher baba]

I can only hope the bye was used as a trigger point for underperforming players.

"Well, you have had an average game(s), you've got until the bye to turn it around and then you're out".

You can't be trigger happy after a single game, but also can't accept mediocrity for too long.

The bye is a good a time as any to reload.

IMO, the ones who need to be looked at closely are:

Ross - his skills have never quite been there, and he's been off his game in recent weeks. But I don't think he can be readily replaced.
Gresham - If Lyon won't drop Byrnes for Billings, perhaps he could give Gresham a spell in the VFL to work on his judgement
Byrnes - I don't think he's in our top 22 at the moment, or even in our top 25. He had a great first match this season, but his impact has been dwindling slowly ever since
Higgins - getting rid of one of Gresham, HIggins and Butler would enable us to strengthen our midfield. I would suggest that Gresham and Butler are performing slightly better than Higgins at the moment. Higgins doesn't provide much pressure inside the forward 50: he is principally there to kick goals. If he can't convert his gettable opportunities then he is a waste of a spot.
Sharman - not a good choice as sub IMO. His shortcomings remain what they have always been: he's not good enough at tackling and winning his own ball for a player of his size He's actually worse at these things than Max King, from whom we wouldn't expect as much as we would from Sharman.

I know I'm being harsh.