Is Lyon mark 2 the right fit for the saints

[saynta]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... f871824cb9


'Will Ross Lyon be the same combative, ruthless coach in his second stint as St Kilda coach? Or has three years out of the AFL rat race mellowed him? Not even the man himself knows.
Glenn McFarlane
10 min read
December 10, 2022 - 1:35PM

Leigh Montagna sent Ross Lyon a cheeky text message after his former coach was parachuted back into the St Kilda coaching role in late October.

It came more than 4000 days after Lyon had shocked the football world by defecting to Fremantle and three years after he has been sacked by the Dockers.

“I did joke with him (after Lyon was appointed), I texted him saying: ‘How many losses until we see the Old Ross back,” Montagna told the Sunday Herald Sun.

“He wrote back, saying: ‘Probably quarter-time in the (first) pre-season game’.”

It was lighthearted banter between two close friends who have ridden the dizzying highs and gut-wrenching lows of the AFL rollercoaster.

But in what looms as a season full of AFL coaching comebacks, the text contained a theme everyone seems to be asking.

What’s Ross Lyon 2.0 going to look like?


Of all the AFL storylines heading into 2023, it’s hard to think of anything more intriguing than Lyon reuniting with St Kilda.

Will he be the same fiercely driven, combative, ruthless coach who enveloped his St Kilda players in a “bubble”, giving little oxygen to anything or anyone outside it?

Or has the three years he has spent out of AFL coaching, immersed in television and radio roles, as well as a new career in property, mellowed his outlook?

Not even the man himself knows the answer yet.'

Nor do the next generation of Saints players who were busily contacting Lyon’s former charges when he took over after Brett Ratten’s sacking, eager for a crash course on what to expect.

The answer back from Ross’ former players was invariably the same: Give everything you have got, and you will be right. Leave anything in the locker and expect to be challenged like never before.

[Vortex]

He will be hunted by the media especially if we don't make the finals in 2023

[saynta]

He will be hunted by the media especially if we don't make the finals in 2023

More rubbish.

[Yorkeys]

By the time the season proper starts these coaches are the ones the media will get stuck into most:
Simpson- long time between drinks, poor seasons in a row, Freo top WA side;
Nick's, another season of no finals for the Crows, he's gone,
Same same Hinckley,
Super Coach Mitchell will need to start winning more, honeymoon over,
the twin from North via AFL,
Fagan needs to win a prelim and has scandal pending,
Clarkson will have his wastewater analysed by Hun.
Ross will be yesterday's news by comparison. Voss will be watched intently as well.

[Vortex]

By the time the season proper starts these coaches are the ones the media will get stuck into most:
Simpson- long time between drinks, poor seasons in a row, Freo top WA side;
Nick's, another season of no finals for the Crows, he's gone,
Same same Hinckley,
Super Coach Mitchell will need to start winning more, honeymoon over,
the twin from North via AFL,
Fagan needs to win a prelim and has scandal pending,
Clarkson will have his wastewater analysed by Hun.
Ross will be yesterday's news by comparison. Voss will be watched intently as well.

The media have already leveraged off Bassett's press conference claims to create the narrative there will be no honeymoon period becsue Lyon was bought in to lift us from the middle of the ladder into premiership contention. The media will come hard for Bassett specifically if we don't make finals so I'd expect when it comes time to sack Lyon that we will lose Bassett as well.

[skeptic]

Whether one rates RTB or not, the reality is that he got the job and I have to imagine that at least part of this process involved him selling a plan to the club that they agreed/liked.

Therefore, experience or not… whatever your preference… RTB deserves the opportunity to enact that plan with expectations adjusted accordingly based on circumstances.

If he’s pushing for a full rebuild, he might get time or perhaps he thinks the list is close to good enough based on potential… who knows.

No way of telling if he’s a good fit until we get an idea of what he’s doing and how it works

[Teflon]

By the time the season proper starts these coaches are the ones the media will get stuck into most:
Simpson- long time between drinks, poor seasons in a row, Freo top WA side;
Nick's, another season of no finals for the Crows, he's gone,
Same same Hinckley,
Super Coach Mitchell will need to start winning more, honeymoon over,
the twin from North via AFL,
Fagan needs to win a prelim and has scandal pending,
Clarkson will have his wastewater analysed by Hun.
Ross will be yesterday's news by comparison. Voss will be watched intently as well.

The media have already leveraged off Bassett's press conference claims to create the narrative there will be no honeymoon period becsue Lyon was bought in to lift us from the middle of the ladder into premiership contention. The media will come hard for Bassett specifically if we don't make finals so I'd expect when it comes time to sack Lyon that we will lose Bassett as well.

Bassat is tied to Lyon blind Freddy knows that
The question is timing abs what improvements look like
If we see growth, a credible game style that’s evolved from Lyon version 1 I don’t think there’s an issue
Most (including you) have the list as a write off
So if Lyon equals or betters Ratten it’s the right call
If the wheels fall off….we have a ways to go and Bassat and the club can also suggest they were right to move..
Lots to play out
Make 7-8 Lyons a genius
I think the list can
Won’t go higher though till improvements/Sharman hits his straps
Buckle up big boy I’ve bookmarked all your potting posts !!

[shanegrambeau]

And I think few of us have considered that we may have really fell away this year (and still might) the way things were going.

We weren’t that bad and we’re still competitive to end with Ratts and co., but I can’t help but feel Ratts’s hands were tied by the culture he was wired into - a legacy of the west he was hired, the Legacy of the whole post-Lyon era and changes in social values as they are reported in the media and perpetuated in society.

Ratts had the soccer guy telling him to chill all the time, and the monster of modern technocracy in clubs now..the metrical machine and it’s targets etc., which led to short sighted decisions.

From Cairns to re-signing Ratts himself.

This feels like Thommo all over again. In the sense of a big broom. It ain’t like Trump and his Mexican wall. It is about cutting through the crap.
And I don’t mind it a bit.

[Vortex]

Whether one rates RTB or not, the reality is that he got the job and I have to imagine that at least part of this process involved him selling a plan to the club that they agreed/liked.

Therefore, experience or not… whatever your preference… RTB deserves the opportunity to enact that plan with expectations adjusted accordingly based on circumstances.

If he’s pushing for a full rebuild, he might get time or perhaps he thinks the list is close to good enough based on potential… who knows.

No way of telling if he’s a good fit until we get an idea of what he’s doing and how it works

I rate Lyon very highly to the point of having a man crush, I even enjoyed watching him go about it at Freo.

I'm just not trusting anything or swallowing the marketing and PR hype this time, there's been way too many false dawns.

However Bassett's performance and presidency is anchored to this latest circus act and our ability to move north of the middle postion in the ladder, the media will back over it if we miss finals...we already know what their narrative will be.

Hang on to your hats if our postion moves southward, and if it does it won't be because of who the coache is, it will be becasue of the same reason it always is...which is St Kilda.

[Vortex]

By the time the season proper starts these coaches are the ones the media will get stuck into most:
Simpson- long time between drinks, poor seasons in a row, Freo top WA side;
Nick's, another season of no finals for the Crows, he's gone,
Same same Hinckley,
Super Coach Mitchell will need to start winning more, honeymoon over,
the twin from North via AFL,
Fagan needs to win a prelim and has scandal pending,
Clarkson will have his wastewater analysed by Hun.
Ross will be yesterday's news by comparison. Voss will be watched intently as well.

The media have already leveraged off Bassett's press conference claims to create the narrative there will be no honeymoon period becsue Lyon was bought in to lift us from the middle of the ladder into premiership contention. The media will come hard for Bassett specifically if we don't make finals so I'd expect when it comes time to sack Lyon that we will lose Bassett as well.

Bassat is tied to Lyon blind Freddy knows that
The question is timing abs what improvements look like
If we see growth, a credible game style that’s evolved from Lyon version 1 I don’t think there’s an issue
Most (including you) have the list as a write off
So if Lyon equals or betters Ratten it’s the right call
If the wheels fall off….we have a ways to go and Bassat and the club can also suggest they were right to move..
Lots to play out
Make 7-8 Lyons a genius
I think the list can
Won’t go higher though till improvements/Sharman hits his straps
Buckle up big boy I’ve bookmarked all your potting posts !!

Basset hasn't been held to account for not knowing what was going on at the club under his management. Within the space of 12 months he said we were entering a premiership window in 2022, that we had the coach to lead us to the promised land and gave a contract and then sacked him. Not the signs of president who knows what he's doing. Bassett is definitely anchored to Lyons results.

If it turns pair shape Bassett will have to go before Lyon does.

[Impatient Sainter]

There is no doubt RTB and new coaches have a big task ahead, but if anyone can get improvement from our list Im confident it is him. Ratten completely failed in the 2nd half of the year, things soured as soon as Steele injured his shoulder.

Losing Minx for up to 4-8 games will create more challenges, but hopefully long term it will make the group work on their F50 delivery and goal conversions.

[Teflon]

By the time the season proper starts these coaches are the ones the media will get stuck into most:
Simpson- long time between drinks, poor seasons in a row, Freo top WA side;
Nick's, another season of no finals for the Crows, he's gone,
Same same Hinckley,
Super Coach Mitchell will need to start winning more, honeymoon over,
the twin from North via AFL,
Fagan needs to win a prelim and has scandal pending,
Clarkson will have his wastewater analysed by Hun.
Ross will be yesterday's news by comparison. Voss will be watched intently as well.

The media have already leveraged off Bassett's press conference claims to create the narrative there will be no honeymoon period becsue Lyon was bought in to lift us from the middle of the ladder into premiership contention. The media will come hard for Bassett specifically if we don't make finals so I'd expect when it comes time to sack Lyon that we will lose Bassett as well.

Bassat is tied to Lyon blind Freddy knows that
The question is timing abs what improvements look like
If we see growth, a credible game style that’s evolved from Lyon version 1 I don’t think there’s an issue
Most (including you) have the list as a write off
So if Lyon equals or betters Ratten it’s the right call
If the wheels fall off….we have a ways to go and Bassat and the club can also suggest they were right to move..
Lots to play out
Make 7-8 Lyons a genius
I think the list can
Won’t go higher though till improvements/Sharman hits his straps
Buckle up big boy I’ve bookmarked all your potting posts !!

Basset hasn't been held to account for not knowing what was going on at the club under his management. Within the space of 12 months he said we were entering a premiership window in 2022, that we had the coach to lead us to the promised land and gave a contract and then sacked him. Not the signs of president who knows what he's doing. Bassett is definitely anchored to Lyons results.

If it turns pair shape Bassett will have to go before Lyon does.

That’s all true but you sound more excited about holding Bassatt to account and extracting vengeance for previous false dawns than results
I didn’t know Bassatt (didn’t rate him really) up until he admitted he hasn’t been close enough to the football Dept (he’s clearly made the mistake of allowing his leaders to manage). I don’t care about his words what I look at is:
Has he taken action? Do his actions make sense ??
IF they do I’m ok with him admitting he got it wrong abd he’s set about fixing it - as long as he fixes it.
Also, you seem to be looking for next messiah - Lyon isn’t it.
It might help if you stop looking for magical fixes and accept we were on the slide under Brett - standards, game plan had taken a turn for the worst. The guy had zero answers and maybe accept that Lyon might not get you a flag but he will definitely demand performance.
No more “everyone pass the hot potato to Brad Hill…he’ll never be dropped..”
That’s a step forward right there
Bassat and the Board need some credit for at least stopping the rot.
It’s all guesswork ofcourse but when you ask people what else they would’ve done….you don’t get many different answers…
Yours??

[Killa]

A couple of questions

How many players on our List have yet to debut at AFL level?

And how many have under 20 games experience at AFL level?

We have a core of decent players, some of whom we need to regularly get into the park

It is, as always, going to be an interesting season

If half a dozen of those with minimal AFL exposure can start to influence results that will be significant

Then you get to the likes of Coffield, Billings, Clark and Gresham having injury free seasons

And King returning for the second half of the season - so a bonus of some significance

Fingers crossed, hey?

[saintsRrising]

With RTB, all coaches at St KFC since have not been as good a coach as he was, and I would be confident in him still being.

Is RTB the best coach in the AFL? Well the question really is could be have gotten anyone better that RTB for 2023, and the answer is no.


RTB is a good coach, of that there is no doubt. The debate is more with people on how good a coach he is. Just good, or very good.


One thing for sure is that the string consensus of player who have played under RTB us that he is a very good coach.


As to 2023, do not just focus on 2023. 2023 is the season that will set us up for 2024 and beyond. Our kids, now that we have talented young players again, can grow into men, and the team as a whole has to get use to playing disciplined and effective football gain. Both of which were lacking under Ratts. Both will take games to become a habit. The new game plan too will also take a while to be developed and fine-tuned. It will not just be 100% right in Round 1. Hell it may well even need major re-working after Round 1, rather than just fine-tuning.

If we can have a successful 2023 win-loss wise than I personally will regard that as a bonus.

The thing that excites me about the major overhaul that we as a club has had is that we are looking to become a good club again in a longterm way.

We are building a new best 23 and are going to be patient in doing so.

Look at our draftees this year. The Poo is young, and barely qualified for this years draft. His build is quite boyish. He is going to be a lot better at AFL level in 2 to years. I personally believe that he slipped to as as most clubs below us were looking for first picks who will play a lot of AFL games in 2023. The Poo may not.

[Scollop]

The new game plan too will also take a while to be developed and fin-tuned. It is not just be 100% right in Round 1. Hell it may well even need major re-working after Round 1, rather than just fine-tuning.

Good point.My money says we fail to make finals purely based on this reason alone.

I just hope Ross remembers his last 3 years at Freo more than his earlier years with them.

It won't be fun for our players otherwise if the expectation is for a top 8 ladder finish. I hope we focus on player development and building the foundations for a good finals team in 2025-2026.

[Vortex]

It’s all guesswork ofcourse but when you ask people what else they would’ve done….you don’t get many different answers…
Yours??

Depends when you ask that question, at the bye when we were 8 and 3 or at the end of the season when we were 11 and 11. Not every one has your mystic powers and can coach whisper.

Your question should be, how come Bassett didn't know what was going on until it was too late, and what is the club doing to make sure he does his job properly now.

Lyon's biggest weaknesss is his ability to identify talent and develop players: what measurement and control has Basset put in place to make sure the rebuild remains focussed on list development.

Clearly Ross told Bassett his condition of employment was the "four pillars" so this is clearly the new power centre of the club and there really is only one pillar who has proven performance in talent acquisition namely Walsh. However how will Bassett monitor Walsh's performance, a guy who is clearly on the record as saying your time is up when you start thinking about retirement and left Collingwood in a mess around the Treloar and slary cap disaster. Will Basset make sure we haven't hired another Blight retirement package.

Lyon can coach, but can't rebuild a list, but can Bassett manage a football club, bringing Lyon to tbe club was easy and was the perfect deflection from his incompetence but everyone needs to keep a close eye on Bassett because the facts are he was asleep at the wheel and clearly he sn't very good at sports administration.

Lyon may turn him into a genius but the odds are against Lyon and if you are a betting man, you'd bet on St Kilda sacking another coach.

[The Fireman]

He will be hunted by the media especially if we don't make the finals in 2023

Ratten would have been hunted and had his head mounted

[spert]

I reckon Lyon has had his day, but will probably do a little better than Ratts, who got found out tactically in many games. Lyon can approach the season without a true FF, so his game plan will be interesting to see

[samoht]

Ratten sucked when the injuries mounted.
There's no correlation, of course.

Lyon mark 3 will be better than the 0-10 version.

[saynta]

Rest of the OP article for doubting thomas's.

"As former Saints chief executive Archie Fraser, who played a leading role in appointing Lyon the first time in late 2006, said, “this is going to be a live miniseries we are all going to be glued to.”

“I think he feels like has got a bit of unfinished business, and I would rather have Ross Lyon with a drive to complete something, than try someone fresh again.

“Ross … with a chip on his shoulder … I reckon that’s a great thing.”

Grant Thomas, whose own sacking after the 2006 season led to Lyon’s first appointment, says Ratten’s shock departure with two years on a contract was the most brutal decision the club had made in years. And while he felt for Ratten, he agreed wholeheartedly with the decision.
Former Saints coach Grant Thomas praised St Kilda’s aggressive move to get Lyon back.

“We’re not relevant yet (as a club),” Thomas said. “It has actually put us on the bus towards relevancy, but that is still a long way into the distance.

“You can sit wherever you want as long as everyone is on the bus.

“But I’m certain that if anyone stands in the way of the bus, Ross will just run them over.”

THE ENIGMA

Lyon is a complex character not easily definable, according to his former Footy Classified colleague Eddie McGuire.

McGuire has known him since Lyon was a knockabout kid from Reservoir making his way as a tough Fitzroy footballer in the late 1980s.

Asked if he believed the coaching fire burned in Lyon throughout his stint on Footy Classified, McGuire said: “It’s complex, a bit like the man himself.”

Lyon can be caring and comforting to those close to him, yet sometimes caustic and cutting to anyone standing in his team’s or his club’s pathway.

Take the week of the 2010 grand final. Driving home from the grand final edition of The Footy Show, Lyon caught a vision in his headlines. A man was sitting on the kerb with his head in hands, seemingly distraught about his life.

The easy thing would have been to drive on. Instead, Lyon pulled his car over and consoled the man for the better part of an hour before help arrived.

More than 40 hours later, after his team had fought out an epic draw with Collingwood, an exhausted Lyon was barking invectives across the dressing rooms, furious his counterpart Mick Malthouse had been allowed to conduct the first press conference.


He can be ice-cool at times, ‘retiring’ three players without their knowledge in the rooms after his last game as coach in 2011, knowing secretly he too wouldn’t be there the next time the Saints played.

Yet the loyalty he garnered from the majority of his players is as strong as almost any other modern coach.

Fraser said: “If you remember the situation, he took over from Thommo (Grant Thomas) and we all know the loyalty the players had for Thommo at the time.

“Ross almost took over in a hostile situation. It wasn’t the easiest of transitions. But he did it, and the players ended up loving him. I am sure it will be the same this time around.”

WAS HE ALWAYS DESTINED TO COACH AGAIN?

Ross Lyon started out as a $2000 part-time coach working for an hour or two on Tuesdays at Richmond under Robert Walls in 1996; now he is again one of the highest paid coaches in the game.

Money wasn’t the reason he turned his back on a role with Wizel Property Group, as well as media roles with Channel 9 and Triple M.

His urge to coach and chase that elusive premiership dream was about unfinished business, even though money has had to be a consideration for him ever since he lost a seven-figure sum in an investment that turned sour during the 2007 global financial crisis.

His return almost came at Carlton last year. He was initially feted to the point when many close to him felt he had the job.

“I think he would have taken the Carlton job,” McGuire said. “But it never quite got to that stage.”

Then, the narrative changed.

Lyon sensationally pulled out of the Blues’ coaching race, believing that a confidentially settled sexual harassment claim from his Fremantle days in 2018 was being used as a smear against him.

He showed rare emotion on Footy Classified, saying: “It needs to stop here … I’m disappointed in the timing of it. What I can say, and I said at the time when I addressed things in Fremantle, the duress and the hurt that a lot of parties were feeling, I felt terrible.

“There was a respectful and confidential resolution reached and designed to protect all parties.”

Michael Voss won the job; Lyon said the door may have been closed on his coaching career.

It hadn’t.

Ratten’s sacking less than 100 days after he had been reappointed bashed that door ajar again. And this time Lyon was happy to charge right back in.

MEDIA STREET

Lyon’s exchange with 3AW’s Shane McInnes after the Dockers’ 2013 qualifying final win over Geelong was one of footy’s most famous press conferences.

His “You’re Quite Brilliant, Shane” comment ended up being the name of his tactical segment alongside Matthew Lloyd on Footy Classified.

His first beef with the media went back to his Fitzroy playing days when an article in the Herald newspaper suggested he was standing out of footy for a season in order to join his former coach Robert Walls at Carlton.

He was nursing a serious groin injury and back issue, but then Lions coach David Parkin had a showdown with Lyon at the family’s Reservoir home.

Nine years ago, Parkin told this reporter: “I was going there to confront him about supposedly going to Carlton because I knew Robert Walls was talking to him. There was no doubt they were, but I took him at his word. He said he would be back when he was ready.”

True to his word, Lyon returned to Fitzroy the following year, but his frustration with the media bubbled away.

“He was always sledgehammer honest,” McGuire recalls Lyon the player, who was nicknamed ‘Whispering Death’ by teammates for his ability to hit the contest with gusto.

“If you got in between him and the ball, he would clean you up as soon as look at you. It was like it was with Ted Whitten … he would clean you up then drive you to hospital.”
Lyon was always brutally honest, known for his quirky remarks at his post-game pressers. Picture by Michael Klein
Lyon was always brutally honest, known for his quirky remarks at his post-game pressers. Picture by Michael Klein

“That’s why he was so good as a coach and in recent times why he’s been so good in the media. The insight he gave us in the media over the past few years has been amazing.

“He was fascinated in seeing how we went about getting the stories. He said: ‘I’ve been in this game all my life and I didn’t realise what happened’. He was astounded by the sources and seemed to have a new appreciation for the media.

“I will be fascinated to see how he goes about it. If they (St Kilda) lose the first few games, does he go back to ‘You’re Quite Brilliant Shane?”

DEFENDING ROSS

Lyon came so close to premiership glory as a coach that he could almost touch it. A toe-poke one year (2009) and the bounce of a ball (2010) proved the cruel finale in successive grand finals.

Add to that some inaccurate kicking at goal during the third term of the 2013 grand final, and Fremantle’s empty trophy cabinet might have a cup of their own.

Despite how close Lyon came at both St Kilda, and Fremantle, he has been lampooned by some for not being willing enough to add some attack to his maniacally defensive game plan.

Some of his past players bristle at criticism that his teams were too focused on defence that the imbalance left them falling short in grand finals.

They cite 2009 – when Lyon’s Saints won 19 straight games in the home-and-away season – as the perfect antidote to those ‘too defensive claims’.

St Kilda ranked No. 4 in terms of points for, with a percentage of 155.7.

Montagna believes we will see modifications to Lyon’s famed defensive strategies.

“All year doing Triple M (radio with Ross), he was big on how much the ‘stand on the mark’ rule had changed the game,” he said. “He is as aware as anyone of this and will utilise it.”

“He is smart enough to understand where the game is at … he has kept a close eye on it.”

Thomas has always admired Lyon, even if he hasn’t always agreed with his brand.

“I thought he should have gotten more from the talented group he had, but I am sure he has learnt from that,” Thomas said.

“I might have a bottle of red wine with Ross at some point, debating his balance between offence and defence. But there is no doubt he is one of the best coaches in the competition.”

Fraser is confident he will be as cutting edge in pushing boundaries as he was in the past.

“I think the beast that comes back to St Kilda is somebody who has probably got a bit more empathy, will still be demanding and will aim to get the best out of every player that plays for him,” Fraser said.

McGuire added: “What he has said is that he is not going to be in the weeds as much. I think he has realised how many cogs there are within the wheels and engines of the football world now.”

Lyon confirmed as much when he addressed a St Kilda past players’ gathering. He explained to them he would be focused on footy alone, and not the other things happening around the club, as he had done when he first walked into the club for his first stint as coach.

ASSISTANTS

Montagna was surprised that some eyebrows were raised when St Kilda past greats Lenny Hayes, Robert Harvey and Brendon Goddard became a part of Lyon’s coaching panel.

“Geelong brought back James Kelly, Harry Taylor and Matty Egan (last season) and that real Geelong flavour helped them to win a flag,” Montagna said.

“St Kilda’s version is Hayes, Harvey and Goddard and there’s nothing wrong with that, as long as you are bringing back the right people.”

Thomas agrees: “I don’t know if Rob, Lenny and BJ are the three best available people, but their understanding, empathy, love and commitment to the club would be unparalleled.”

“If it is good enough for Ross, then it is good enough for me.”
Lyon has recruited a number of former players to assist him at the Saints, including club legend Lenny Hayes.

Fraser added: “I think St Kilda needs people who have lived through that recent disappointment. I reckon having lived through it, there is no one better than Lenny, Robert Harvey and BJ.”

McGuire said: “I love it. Get the best people and if the best people have their heart and soul invested in the place, it cannot be a bad thing.”

HOW QUICKLY CAN THE SAINTS BOUNCE BACK?

St Kilda’s 2023 task became harder with news this week that Max King will miss the bulk of the season after being forced to undergo a shoulder reconstruction.

But Fraser is “optimistic” about how things can pan out in the first year.

“Other clubs who perhaps thought that the four points against St Kilda might not be so tough might have to start thinking again,” Fraser said.

While Thomas says list management remains a huge concern for him, he loves the boldness of Lyon’s appointment.
Robert Harvey is another legend returning to the Saints in an assistant capacity.


“It’s not as if he has been out finishing for three years; he has been in the media, so he has still been up to his ears in it,” he said.

“I’ve been calling for standards to be set for a decade … I would be shocked if Ross isn’t really good at managing standards and getting that buy-in from the players.

“The club is 150 years old and to have won one premiership by one point (in 1966) is a reflection of who we are.

“That’s been my beef with St Kilda. We have been happy to play in the AFL, but we have not been serious about being in the premiership business.

“But I fully expect us to be back in the premiership business again (with Lyon’s four contracted seasons).”

[Vortex]

I reckon Lyon has had his day, but will probably do a little better than Ratts, who got found out tactically in many games. Lyon can approach the season without a true FF, so his game plan will be interesting to see

Lyon is a proven performer in most aspects of coaching, his greatest weakness is the clubs greatest weakness, talent acquisition and list development. In Lyon's final year at Freo, he was being heavily criticised for the teams poor skills and a poor game plan.

Hopefully Bassett hasn't allowed Lyon to have too much control and puts the right resources into talent acquisition and skills development, and hopefully Bassett has put some much better monitoring in place this time to ensure we don't get a few years down the track and learn things are still a mess, I'm still amazed that this area of the club is still a shambles.

[Impatient Sainter]

I am a lot more confident with our current coaching set up than I was under Ratten. I am confident Lyon has learnt a lot from his previous stints and believe he will be a better development coach this time around. The changes are already evidenced by his willingness to have the assistants develop the game plan and run training. I dont think he was bad in the development space previously, he was just that focussed on winning he sometimes overlooked younger players who werent screaming to be picked.

It was obvious Ratten was out of his depth in the 2nd half of the year, he simply had no answers other than 'pressure indicators'. After losing players to injury his coaching was unimaginative and lacked any lateral thinking what so ever.

If we can win more than 50% of games until Max returns and then have some luck with injuries, I am quietly confident we will play finals. Having said that I would like to see RTB find a balance between winning and still getting games into the kids that deserve their opportunities. In 2023 our team ethos should be to have as many players debut as possible eg Heath, Phillipou, Van Es, Hotton, & (Eyre, Stocker/Stack), if listed. I will be surprised if Keeler, Allison & Adams can force themselves into the team next year just because of a lack physical development.

I would also like to see the other fringe players in Bytel & Byrnes rewarded if their form warrants it. Particularly if any midfielders have dips in form like they did at times last season. Howard was another who I believe had a below average season and needs to step up and show more onfield leadership. I would hope that our list depth allows the group to keep the more experienced players on notice that they have to perform every week and cant pick and chose when to give maximum effort.

[Crossy66]

Personally think Ross gets a pass for 2023 as he sets things up for a sustainable future.
Cannot fault anything Bassett or the club has done post the 2022 review. Everything from personnel, marketing to recruiting has been hard edged- Brutal maybe, but he has acted big time.
Btw , I don't accept the narrative that Ross can't develop a list. Last time the club pushed "all chips in"for the elusive second premiership at the expense of anything else. Win a flag, and it's the right decision.
Interesting listening to the Freo kids and how they credit RTB .

[Teflon]

I reckon Lyon has had his day, but will probably do a little better than Ratts, who got found out tactically in many games. Lyon can approach the season without a true FF, so his game plan will be interesting to see

Lyon is a proven performer in most aspects of coaching, his greatest weakness is the clubs greatest weakness, talent acquisition and list development. In Lyon's final year at Freo, he was being heavily criticised for the teams poor skills and a poor game plan.

Hopefully Bassett hasn't allowed Lyon to have too much control and puts the right resources into talent acquisition and skills development, and hopefully Bassett has put some much better monitoring in place this time to ensure we don't get a few years down the track and learn things are still a mess, I'm still amazed that this area of the club is still a shambles.

Revisionist cliched theory
Lyon in his last year at Freo was decimated by injury - go read Riewoldts article on how well he had done
Go read Pavlich who stated anyone saying he “can’t develop “ is talking out their arse… (see Brayshaw, Serong etc brought on and developed under Lyon)
It’s just lazy Herald Sun opinion with no fact
Lyon is the coach - talent acquisition isn’t his job FFS that’s list management ???
As for “I hope Bassatt has out things in place..” blah blah
What’s Geoff Walsh chop liver ???????
Lyon himself has said he’ll be footy focused and less in the weeds
Again I’ll ask but still you won’t answer
The club had sunk to 3-11 at seasons end
What would you have done differently???????
Let me guess…keep Brett????

[Teflon]

It’s all guesswork ofcourse but when you ask people what else they would’ve done….you don’t get many different answers…
Yours??

Depends when you ask that question, at the bye when we were 8 and 3 or at the end of the season when we were 11 and 11. Not every one has your mystic powers and can coach whisper.

Your question should be, how come Bassett didn't know what was going on until it was too late, and what is the club doing to make sure he does his job properly now.

Lyon's biggest weaknesss is his ability to identify talent and develop players: what measurement and control has Basset put in place to make sure the rebuild remains focussed on list development.

Clearly Ross told Bassett his condition of employment was the "four pillars" so this is clearly the new power centre of the club and there really is only one pillar who has proven performance in talent acquisition namely Walsh. However how will Bassett monitor Walsh's performance, a guy who is clearly on the record as saying your time is up when you start thinking about retirement and left Collingwood in a mess around the Treloar and slary cap disaster. Will Basset make sure we haven't hired another Blight retirement package.

Lyon can coach, but can't rebuild a list, but can Bassett manage a football club, bringing Lyon to tbe club was easy and was the perfect deflection from his incompetence but everyone needs to keep a close eye on Bassett because the facts are he was asleep at the wheel and clearly he sn't very good at sports administration.

Lyon may turn him into a genius but the odds are against Lyon and if you are a betting man, you'd bet on St Kilda sacking another coach.

What a stupid bet - most clubs end up sacking coaches that’s footy???
Lyons job isn’t to “identify talent” that’s list management ffs let’s at least try get the roles right if we are going to spew out cliches (you don’t need to be a coach whisperer to know what they do…it ain’t that hard..)
Is Bassat guilty of trusting his previous footy Dept??
Yes
Did he admit that and adjust?
Yes
Again oh wise football analyst …
What would you have done differently??
You’re not happy with what Bassat has done to correct his admissions????
Do tell us your answer then ???
I suspect not.