Culture and Environment

[Templar]

Must be shocking:

https://www.saints.com.au/video/1159971 ... 6466200001

[Rubyjo]

Is there an extra burden on St Kilda players to succeed. One premiership and the longer it takes to get anothwr one the harder it becomes. The burden on kicking goals to get us into finals may sit heavy on some of our younger players .

[Trev from the Bush]

Sorry, I thought this was a lecture by Caroline Wilson

[Teflon]

BF good post

I can’t say I have ever felt this disconsolate about my STKFC. And I am a 50 yo supporter (and now former member) so I have seen some dark times—wooden spoons, diabolical trades and recruiting ( Russell Green, McCartin, for eg) and potential mergers etc.

I think that is probably because I feel a sense of time dwindling and a premiership still remote. We are neither last nor in peril but with every awful Board or recruiting decision I see stagnation, not ascent.

The board that has overseen mediocrity now for over a decade, and I concede there have been changes to its make-up, has now chosen to promote Rath and Lethlean and extend a seriously overwhelmed coach.

My feeling is that Ratten made a great Sergeant to Clarkson’s General and was the hands-on ‘relationships’ assistant while Clarko handled the serious game plan theory, hard conversations and motivation work.

Rath, at Hawthorn, I think was valued as the biomechanic whose principle theory was that left footers opened up more space on the field, this was reflected in their recruiting. He was also credited with being a futurist of the game, something I have no idea about, but never was he a game day or game plan strategist. As evidenced by the interview recently posted on here again (apologies to the poster), his sense of game plan is like improv theatre or jazz ballet, which is confusing as we basically do the same mindless things every week. But now I hear Lade thinks the players are to blame.

We also got the analytics guy from Hawthorn and I can’t see that has helped, but again, not my area of expertise.

The only thing Lethlean has done right is overrule the head recruiter to get King instead of Rozee (hmm, food for thought) and then to demote the head recruiter. He f#d up the Hill trade, gave them Acres basically just to stop having to backtrack and has failed to headhunt and hire the best recruiter available—we missed our chance with Dalrymple.

Like we missed our chance with Mitchell and now unbelievably, Clarkson. The man famous for aligning all aspects of the club into one pure vision. It is astonishing.

And perhaps worst of all our one anchor to a sustained premiership tilt, King, is being psychologically damaged. How his technique is still bad when we have a biomechanic on staff is beyond me and how we have devised a game plan that diminishes his strengths is disgraceful.

I see the repeat of the Richo era playing out again and I am afraid, like many in my ST.K loving family—literally my cousins and uncles and aunts, all of us who lived between Balaclava Rd and Alma Road in the 70’s and 80’s—that the club will be lost to me. I am starting to stop caring, which I feel ashamed to say but it is true. It actually hurt to write that last sentence and I am no sentimentalist.

[Wayne42]

There's always a what's gone wrong story associated with St Kilda, maybe there always will be.

[Teflon]

There's always a what's gone wrong story associated with St Kilda, maybe there always will be.

Yep
We truly are that country n western “somebody done somebody wrong song..”
or that other
“the good ole days…..when times were bad…”

Moorabbin 80s
But we love it
Story’s of mud
Downtrodden floggings
Punctuated by individual rays of sheer brilliance (plugger)
Best disco in town
Loads of good players
Very few good teams
Heart n soul players universally admired (Barker)
Bad boys who could play (Muir)
All the while ….no real success
No real respect
I think country n western is ingrained in our culture

[Ghost Like]

There's always a what's gone wrong story associated with St Kilda, maybe there always will be.

Yep
We truly are that country n western “somebody done somebody wrong song..”
or that other
“the good ole days…..when times were bad…”

Moorabbin 80s
But we love it
Story’s of mud
Downtrodden floggings
Punctuated by individual rays of sheer brilliance (plugger)
Best disco in town
Loads of good players
Very few good teams
Heart n soul players universally admired (Barker)
Bad boys who could play (Muir)
All the while ….no real success
No real respect
I think country n western is ingrained in our culture

Very clever, ironically yet intrinsically St Kilda.

Must say though I stopped reading your BF mate's post when I read the ex member bit. We all know that poster will be back on (IF) when we get back to finals. So kinda lost me there.

I'll die with a St Kilda membership but I think we've seen this rodeo (another C&W) enough to know we will not die because of it. We all hurt, we are all frustrated but it's not life and death.

Keep moving & keep buying a ticket to the greatest frustrating professional sh!t show on earth. It's our right &
our calling

[Vortex]

If only King could kick. It's frustrating but it's Monday and life goes on.

[shanegrambeau]

I think we could take some inspiration from our cross-town siblings, North Melbourne, Footscray and even Melbourne.

and we should be very, very careful about the AFL .(RIP Fitzroy*) ..I , and many others here, have spoken about our co-dependence - our deal with the devil. New Zealand, Caitns etc., fixture, tribunal, ground arrangements....

But the Bulldogs have survived. The Roos have survived. The Bulldogs and Melbourne git their flags. Imagine the tears shed by Bulldogs fans in decades gone by, until finally in '2016 they got there. ('09 Prelim among them) ..the Roos, under Brad Scott remained competitive, until the end..when Brad was told to re-build...and we should really take note here..the.re-build word...Watch the f out! Look at the strongest team Geelong. They are almost geriatrics.

We won't stop being Saints fans..it is too late for that.

[Templar]

Max kicked 24 / 8 in a run at the end of last year.

He has taken more marks this year than McKay, Bont, Gawn etc.

Out of 18 clubs he is the eighth leading goal scorer this year.

But let's write him off after one bad game.

Its a wonder that the Cats have kept Hawkins for this long given his early record. What a basket case they must be.

[Kick-it-lace-out]

BF good post

I can’t say I have ever felt this disconsolate about my STKFC. And I am a 50 yo supporter (and now former member) so I have seen some dark times—wooden spoons, diabolical trades and recruiting ( Russell Green, McCartin, for eg) and potential mergers etc.

I think that is probably because I feel a sense of time dwindling and a premiership still remote. We are neither last nor in peril but with every awful Board or recruiting decision I see stagnation, not ascent.

The board that has overseen mediocrity now for over a decade, and I concede there have been changes to its make-up, has now chosen to promote Rath and Lethlean and extend a seriously overwhelmed coach.

My feeling is that Ratten made a great Sergeant to Clarkson’s General and was the hands-on ‘relationships’ assistant while Clarko handled the serious game plan theory, hard conversations and motivation work.

Rath, at Hawthorn, I think was valued as the biomechanic whose principle theory was that left footers opened up more space on the field, this was reflected in their recruiting. He was also credited with being a futurist of the game, something I have no idea about, but never was he a game day or game plan strategist. As evidenced by the interview recently posted on here again (apologies to the poster), his sense of game plan is like improv theatre or jazz ballet, which is confusing as we basically do the same mindless things every week. But now I hear Lade thinks the players are to blame.

We also got the analytics guy from Hawthorn and I can’t see that has helped, but again, not my area of expertise.

The only thing Lethlean has done right is overrule the head recruiter to get King instead of Rozee (hmm, food for thought) and then to demote the head recruiter. He f#d up the Hill trade, gave them Acres basically just to stop having to backtrack and has failed to headhunt and hire the best recruiter available—we missed our chance with Dalrymple.

Like we missed our chance with Mitchell and now unbelievably, Clarkson. The man famous for aligning all aspects of the club into one pure vision. It is astonishing.

And perhaps worst of all our one anchor to a sustained premiership tilt, King, is being psychologically damaged. How his technique is still bad when we have a biomechanic on staff is beyond me and how we have devised a game plan that diminishes his strengths is disgraceful.

I see the repeat of the Richo era playing out again and I am afraid, like many in my ST.K loving family—literally my cousins and uncles and aunts, all of us who lived between Balaclava Rd and Alma Road in the 70’s and 80’s—that the club will be lost to me. I am starting to stop caring, which I feel ashamed to say but it is true. It actually hurt to write that last sentence and I am no sentimentalist.

Thank you. Great post and reflects exactly how I'm also feeling.

[Templar]

I've felt a lot worse before.

I even sense a bit of a spark.

To me we nerd to go sll in with Ratten. The only other option is we march on the capitol with our horn hats on and burn everything down.

Until then we have Ratts and I believe to have any chance of success we need to go all in.

What I mean is that the man, as head coach, needs to be empowered to achieve whatever his vision is for the next two years. And without interference. If he is getting two bob here, and three bob from there, and has one hand tied behind his back because of whatever hierarchy then its probably bound to fail.

But this will need him to put his big boy boots on too and start calling s*** out. "No, we are not doing that. Here is my vision. My game plan. These are the people we need. These are the prople I listen to. Thank you for your suggestions I will take them on board."

If he can lead with authority that will make a hell of a difference to the squad than if they know, or even think, that he is nobbled.

So I am in with Ratts but I hope that he is off the chain. Let loose Ratts. You only got one chance.

[Munga]

I've felt a lot worse before.

I even sense a bit of a spark.

Here here. The guys played with passion, need to get that out of them every match.

[cwrcyn]

Aaaah.. .the old 'culture' cliche once again. The lazy person's footy fall back position when on field performances don't measure up.

West Coast was full of cocaine sniffers and players who hung out with bikies and underworld figures and they won a premiership doing it. Success = great culture even when half your players are coked out of their brains and hanging out with criminals

[cwrcyn]

I suppose Melbourne's culture must have been dreadful the year before they won the flag. Same too for the Bulldogs the year before they won the flag.

[saynta]

Aaaah.. .the old 'culture' cliche once again. The lazy person's footy fall back position when on field performances don't measure up.

West Coast was full of cocaine sniffers and players who hung out with bikies and underworld figures and they won a premiership doing it. Success = great culture even when half your players are coked out of their brains and hanging out with criminals

I remember one of the eagles saying that when the drug testers turned up to an eagles training season, half the side jumped the fence and disappeared.

Not sure if it was drugs or steroid abuse they were trying to hide.

In hindsight, probably both as they were built like brick outhouses.

[cwrcyn]

I remember when Malthouse took over at The Eagles. In one summer every player increased their body weight by about at least 15% and came back looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Everybody knew they were on the gear, but the AFL, in their desire for their new club to succeed, just looked the other way. There were questionable practices going on when Malthouse was at Collingwood, too. Their 2010 grand final replay performance was, shall I say, 'aided' by 'science'.

[happy feet]

I remember when Malthouse took over at The Eagles. In one summer every player increased their body weight by about at least 15% and came back looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Everybody knew they were on the gear, but the AFL, in their desire for their new club to succeed, just looked the other way. There were questionable practices going on when Malthouse was at Collingwood, too. Their 2010 grand final replay performance was, shall I say, 'aided' by 'science'.

Yes, immediately post Grand Final win by the Skinks there was a story that was going to rock the AFL to its core and as I understood at the time there was a very high number of Skunk players with elevated levels of human growth hormone beyond what could be naturally expected in a sample of 22 players and then the story disappeared almost over night, you could not find a trace of it anywhere.

[cwrcyn]

I knew someone who was working at The Herald Sun at that time. It was conveyed to me that they were going to run the story. The whole sports desk was buzzing with it and they knew it was going to be explosive. They ran it past the legal department and got it approved. Strangely though, between 5pm and midnight the story was pulled. Reporters were furious the next day.

My guess is that the dodgy Cypriot and Maguire got on the blower to HS that evening. Very peculiar situation and throws up a lot of uneasy questions.

I remember James Hird, in his decision to go with the whole supplements crap, had referenced the things that Hawthorn and Collingwood had been doing as a justification for the course of action he took.

[Scollop]

The culture and environment needs to be driven by our players

Wilkie seems to be starting to voice his opinion and I think he realises he’s earnt the respect of the players and he can be more aggressive with his feedback. Steele has to step up and has to be more vocal. He has to learn to give feedback during a match and the best way to do that is to practice giving blunt and truthful feedback at training.

The senior group may be passionate about driving standards, but we’ve had Hannas and Gears unable to get on the park and you have other personalities like Jack Billings, Steele, Membrey, and Seb Ross who are perhaps not as vocal in demanding that their team mates push harder.

Dougal has been vocal but maybe needs to get his timing right and also focus on improving his game as much as leading the backline and midfielders. Same with Brad Hill. He has been good on field with direction and instructing players, but he’s not setting the world on fire when it comes to leading by example.

They have to set the standard and create an environment of excellence. It has to be a group effort and all the leadership group need to improve. It has been difficult in the last few years with Geary and Hannebery being injured and the changes with new senior players like Brad Crouch taking a while to bond with the group. It’s got to be driven by senior players.

The leaders need to genuinely believe in their team mates and if they don’t, then they should step aside and let others take this group forward. We are pretty lucky to have Windhager and Bytel in the team. I think they have the potential to lead the club at some stage and I think they will be integral to our team success in the next few years

[shanegrambeau]

Hereza culture question for ya.

An 'external culture' one I suppose. But feel free to speculate about what the 'inner culture' ramifications may be.

What would re-signing Hannas for another year, say to all St Kilda people, inside and out, about the culture at St Kilda?

Here goes!

[D.B.Cooper]

Must be shocking:

https://www.saints.com.au/video/1159971 ... 6466200001

Not sure anyone is suggesting the environment and culture is shocking!
We are a middle of the road club, not North Melbourne.

My question to you - is our culture and environment elite and uncompromising?
Are we recognized and highly respected in our industry and seen as a contender and a powerful presence in the competition?

Or are we viewed as perennial losers and treated with contempt?

Or is it all ...



I quite like your posts Templar, and love the username which I assume is from the old 60's TV show The Saint.
But I believe the aforementioned post makes me think you are a club official or an apologist in some way and accepting of our clubs position of where it stands now.

My dad didn't take me in 65 or 66, but I've been to 5 non winning grand finals in my life time.
Can't speak for you but I'd love to see us get there and I can't see it happening in the near future.

[Templar]

Hi DB

I kept reading on here that no decent players want to play for us.

And then I thought about the genuine enthusiasm Rowan Marshall expressed in that video after he committed to the Saints for 5 years.

So there appeared to be a disconnect between the tragic environment down at the Saints that is described on here by a bunch of posters compared to the enthusiasm and commitment from a quality player like Marshall.

One would expect that people playing for the club would be in a better position to assess what the vibe is like down there. Of course signing up would give you a vested interest and professionally you wouldn't talk down a club that you had just signed up to for 5 years. But Marshall's enthusiasm looks genuine to me and that is very refreshing to observe as a supporter. Even moreso when people on here were saying he was going to Essedon. That would have been crushing.

I didn't make any further comments other than to highlight this disconnect by posting a video. I don't work for the club nor am I an apologist - I have dished out a few serves to the club in the short time I have started posting on here again. But also credit where I think it is due.

It's all relative I suppose.

[Templar]

Are we recognized and highly respected in our industry and seen as a contender and a powerful presence in the competition?

Appeared to be in the first half of the year (though I couldn't see it. I was stoked we were winning but thought 10th or 11th was about where we rated compared to other clubs).

Second half of the year atrocious.

I think mostly because of game plan (or lack thereof). Front half delivery into the forward line shambles. And lack of movement and first time instinctive ball movement in the back half.

But I reckon that stuff can be fixed. And the responsibility is on the coaches. Will they address it. Still waiting...

[shanegrambeau]

… Marshall…

…appeared to be a disconnect …..a bunch of posters compared to the enthusiasm and commitment from a quality player like Marshall.

….

Fair enough.

But you would concede Marshall wasn’t exactly on song for patches this year..Couple of really solid games recently aside..

The mighty Marshall show had a middling year- might kick the lights out on Sunday ..

Rapt he is staying, but a lot of us not exactly beaming about the general state of affairs..
And when we question the generals, it’s only natural we point to the Field Marshall.