The out of form saints

[saynta]

Bulldogs OBLITERATE Saints


AFL: The Western Bulldogs have thumped St Kila 144-33 at Marvel Stadium in round 10.

As Billy Joel once crooned, for St Kilda it’s a matter of trust.

Brett Ratten can’t trust his team to turn up from one week to the next.

He can’t trust the hard-won improvements in St Kilda’s game plan in recent weeks not to evaporate in any given round.

And when his players look him in the eye and promise effort pre-match, too often they respond with performances like the 111-point defeat.

It’s a terrible position to be in for an AFL coach.

As Geelong star Jimmy Bartel told 3AW on Sunday, Brett Ratten has no answers for his side’s tailspin.

Or more to the point, no confidence they will fix exactly what he knows is wrong.

“It is now a trust issue. Do I trust my players to execute? This is the third time,” Bartel said.

“After the first time you fire the bullet in a team meeting and you trust them and back them in.
Brett Ratten is running out of ways to try and get his players to respond, and perform. Picture: Michael Klein
Brett Ratten is running out of ways to try and get his players to respond, and perform. Picture: Michael Klein

“The second time you go hard with mouthguards in at training, it’s a mindset thing.

“What do you do the third time?

“You can only fire a certain amount of bullets or the blokes think you are nuts. You lose the group. (So now he is saying) it’s personnel. I have to change the team.

“The ones I am giving opportunities to aren’t getting it done.”

Against Richmond (an 86-point defeat) and Port Adelaide (54 points) St Kilda was abysmal.

But in Round 7 and 8 victories over Hawthorn and Gold Coast, then the honourable loss to Geelong, St Kilda seemed to have fixed its problems.

They ranked third for clearance differential, second for points against and third for opposition points from turnovers in that period.

Against the Western Bulldogs in their worst performance of a miserable season, they lost clearances by 13, coughed up 144 points, allowed an opposition score from 56.5 per cent of inside 50s.

Every single strength was ripped apart by a Bulldogs side which had 50 more possessions but 74 tackles to the Saints’ 48.

Brett Ratten said it was time to dump the underperformers, so who has let St Kilda down most this year?


Saints press conference
AFL: St Kilda Saints coach Brett Ratten discusses his team's round 10 clash with the Western Bulldogs.

Dan Butler’s drop off a form cliff is reflective of the club’s fortunes.

He had five possessions against the Dogs, with three turnovers.

He has only 10 goals in 10 games and is in a group of players including Ben Long, Nick Coffield, Jack Lonie and Rowan Marshall who have had the biggest ranking points slumps from 2020 to 2021.

Long has been the sub at times, but he averages 27 ranking points.

Coffield finished fifth in last year’s best-and-fairest but has already been dropped this year.

Jack Billings hasn’t kicked a goal in five of his past six games, with Brad Hill pushed to half back in desperation.

You could make a claim every St Kilda player bar Max King and Jack Steele has gone backwards this year.

All of St Kilda’s point of difference players, burst midfielders Jade Gresham and Zak Jones plus both their ruck forwards, have missed big chunks of football.

Ratten’s issue is he doesn’t have a bevy of kids in the VFL.
Dan Butler is a shadow of the player he was last year.


He mentioned Luke Dunstan and Mason Wood as potential inclusions.

Dunstan brings his own footy in the VFL (29 possessions, three goals on Saturday) and Wood had 26 touches and 2.2, but Coffield and Long had only 28 possessions between them.

There is no salvation in the VFL.

All is not lost because the Saints face North Melbourne, Adelaide and Collingwood in the next five weeks.

But at 4-6 and with a paltry percentage of 72.6 the Saints would need to win nine of their last 12 games to play finals and potentially every game to finish top four.

St Kilda’s list management build has all been about winning Grand Finals, not limping into eighth spot.

In a season with so many contenders, St Kilda could make a late charge but the reality is their premiership hopes are teetering on the brinhttps://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/st ... e0115dd326

[Joffa Burns]

St Kilda 2021: The out-of-form Saints coach Brett Ratten needs rapid improvement from
St Kilda soared into finals last season, but many of the players who took the Saints there have seen their output plummet in 2021.

Jon Ralph and 360 View

As Billy Joel once crooned, for St Kilda it’s a matter of trust.

Brett Ratten can’t trust his team to turn up from one week to the next.

He can’t trust the hard-won improvements in St Kilda’s game plan in recent weeks not to evaporate in any given round.

And when his players look him in the eye and promise effort pre-match, too often they respond with performances like the 111-point defeat.

It’s a terrible position to be in for an AFL coach.

Watch the 2021 Toyota AFL Premiership Season. Every match of every round Live on Kayo. New to Kayo? Try 14-Days Free Now >

As Geelong star Jimmy Bartel told 3AW on Sunday, Brett Ratten has no answers for his side’s tailspin.

Or more to the point, no confidence they will fix exactly what he knows is wrong.

“It is now a trust issue. Do I trust my players to execute? This is the third time,” Bartel

After the first time you fire the bullet in a team meeting and you trust them and back them in.

The second time you go hard with mouthguards in at training, it’s a mindset thing.

“What do you do the third time?

“You can only fire a certain amount of bullets or the blokes think you are nuts. You lose the group. (So now he is saying) it’s personnel. I have to change the team.

“The ones I am giving opportunities to aren’t getting it done.”

Against Richmond (an 86-point defeat) and Port Adelaide (54 points) St Kilda was abysmal.

But in Round 7 and 8 victories over Hawthorn and Gold Coast, then the honourable loss to Geelong, St Kilda seemed to have fixed its problems.

They ranked third for clearance differential, second for points against and third for opposition points from turnovers in that period.

Against the Western Bulldogs in their worst performance of a miserable season, they lost clearances by 13, coughed up 144 points, allowed an opposition score from 56.5 per cent of inside 50s.

Every single strength was ripped apart by a Bulldogs side which had 50 more possessions but 74 tackles to the Saints’ 48.

Brett Ratten said it was time to dump the underperformers, so who has let St Kilda down most this year?

Dan Butler’s drop off a form cliff is reflective of the club’s fortunes.

He had five possessions against the Dogs, with three turnovers.

He has only 10 goals in 10 games and is in a group of players including Ben Long, Nick Coffield, Jack Lonie and Rowan Marshall who have had the biggest ranking points slumps from 2020 to 2021.

Long has been the sub at times, but he averages 27 ranking points.

Coffield finished fifth in last year’s best-and-fairest but has already been dropped this year.

Jack Billings hasn’t kicked a goal in five of his past six games, with Brad Hill pushed to half back in desperation.

You could make a claim every St Kilda player bar Max King and Jack Steele has gone backwards this year.

All of St Kilda’s point of difference players, burst midfielders Jade Gresham and Zak Jones plus both their ruck forwards, have missed big chunks of football.

Ratten’s issue is he doesn’t have a bevy of kids in the VFL.

He mentioned Luke Dunstan and Mason Wood as potential inclusions.

Dunstan brings his own footy in the VFL (29 possessions, three goals on Saturday) and Wood had 26 touches and 2.2, but Coffield and Long had only 28 possessions between them.

There is no salvation in the VFL.

All is not lost because the Saints face North Melbourne, Adelaide and Collingwood in the next five weeks.

But at 4-6 and with a paltry percentage of 72.6 the Saints would need to win nine of their last 12 games to play finals and potentially every game to finish top four.

Has heartless Saints’ recruiting failed?
St Kilda’s list management build has all been about winning Grand Finals, not limping into eighth spot.

In a season with so many contenders, St Kilda could make a late charge but the reality is their premiership hopes are teetering on the brink.

[saintsRrising]

In a season with so many contenders, St Kilda could make a late charge but the reality is their premiership hopes are teetering on the brink.

We are not just teetering on the brink, we are already over the cliff!

The question now is can we scale back up before we hit rock bottom to get on the brink again, and to then improve from there. Or are we just going to crash and burn.



We topped up with mature players and that gave us an immediate lift. But mature players do not get better.
Though Ryder has been better than he was at Port.

Preparing for this year the club got in front of themselves and went full top mode with even the back being use by past use by date players in Frawley, McKernan and Woods.


Now recruiting these days does need to be a mix of kids and trades. And players from other clubs can be a great source, but we have have overdone gaining players from other clubs with issues.

[B.M]

Ryder was an All Australian at Port

[SaintPav]

It's a sad situation.

[Wayne42]

Simon Says

St Kilda is searching for answers to its "alarming" form swings following a horror AFL performance against the Western Bulldogs.

Led by chief operating officer Simon Lethlean, the Saints coaching staff, club psychologists and player representatives gathered at Moorabbin on Monday morning for an honesty session to thrash out the humiliating 111-point loss.

Mystifyingly, it came a week after they challenged third-placed Geelong before falling by 21 points.

Lethlean said they immediately ruled out any division between coach Brett Ratten and the playing group, and are looking for reasons behind their rollercoaster results which make AFL finals increasingly unlikely.
After making the semi-finals last year the Saints, who are now 4-6, have failed to kick on in 2021 and appeared bereft of confidence and desire on Saturday.

Lethlean didn't believe there were issues with recruitment or with the game plan; more so with execution.

"This is not a disenchanted playing group... who don't have a coach they don't want to play for," Lethlean said on Monday.

"We've got a coach the players love and respect so there's more to this and we've got to uncover what that is ... this gulf between our best and worst is not good enough.

"We haven't got all the answers right now but we're searching for them and we're not in denial that there's a fair bit going wrong on match day."
Set to meet last-placed North Melbourne this week, he said there would be personnel changes with some players from their winning VFL team coming in - mentioning Nick Coffield and Luke Dunstan.

But they would resist benching a star for the sake of a "statement".

"It's a pretty thirsty industry for making statements; we will make the best decisions for the balance we need to beat the Kangaroos this weekend," he said.

"If that's a big name player so be it, if there's a replacement that's going to field a better performance this weekend.

"We're looking for a response against the Kangas."

https://www.afl.com.au/news/620484/-we- ... orm-swings

[st.byron]

Lethlean didn't believe there were issues with recruitment or with the game plan; more so with execution.

Well that’s a relief. No issues with recruiting or the game plan. Thank goodness for that.

[Wayne42]

Lethlean didn't believe there were issues with recruitment or with the game plan; more so with execution.

Well that’s a relief. No issues with recruiting or the game plan. Thank goodness for that.

I now understand the term Simple Simon.

[st.byron]

Lethlean didn't believe there were issues with recruitment or with the game plan; more so with execution.

Well that’s a relief. No issues with recruiting or the game plan. Thank goodness for that.

I now understand the term Simple Simon.

Not so much simple as slippery.

Joffa mentioned in the Tony74 thread that there must be something not right in the club for these kind of abysmal showings to be happening.
It’s at senior management level and it’s called denial. It happened for years with Richo as coach and now it’s happening with Ratten as coach. Oh look the same people are in charge.
The suits at senior management level who make the recruiting and football dept decisions are apparently absolved of all responsibility because the problems are “not recruiting or game plan”.
We are lost whilst these individuals running the club continue to re-assure us there are no issues with these fundamentals.

Things sometimes don’t seem right but I ignore them. Last year, late in the season, there was an article on the club website with the club’s top ten trades of recent years listed. Hannebery was in there at number 5. At the time I winced and thought it was very odd. But.... we were having a good season....
Now it’s clear. Those at the top i.e Lethlean, Finnis, Sexton aren’t accountable. I’m sure they’ve got lots of corporate spin words and even KPI’s and milestones to meet, but it’s clear that it’s all bulls***.
If they want to take part in an honesty session, they are where the focus should be. What an abysmal joke and cruel outcome. F*** em. They’ve lost me and so has the club.

And anyone who wants to come on and have a crack about not being a genuine supporter etc etc etc, go F*** yourself in advance. Enough is enough of this abysmal, mediocre, glossy covered smut rag dressed up as a footy club.

[saynta]

In a season with so many contenders, St Kilda could make a late charge but the reality is their premiership hopes are teetering on the brink.

We are not just teetering on the brink, we are already over the cliff!

The question now is can we scale back up before we hit rock bottom to get on the brink again, and to then improve from there. Or are we just going to crash and burn.



We topped up with mature players and that gave us an immediate lift. But mature players do not get better.
Though Ryder has been better than he was at Port.

Preparing for this year the club got in front of themselves and went full top mode with even the back being use by past use by date players in Frawley, McKernan and Woods.


Now recruiting these days does need to be a mix of kids and trades. And players from other clubs can be a great source, but we have have overdone gaining players from other clubs with issues.

Woods was easily our best player for Sandi at the weekend. Dunstan was good for the first quarter. Then.faded.

Apart from Oscar, who is definitely worth.persevering
with, the cupboard is f****** bare.

Coffield and Ben were f****** woeful.

Talk about putting Coffield back in the seniors is ludicrous.

[Yorkeys]

Lethlean is a political beast. When he says its not recruitment or game plan he means recruitment has failed and game plan is rubbish.

Expect big change in forward set up this week and way ball brought out of defence. Game day strategists could be looking for jobs. Recruiters on notice.

Its now not a question of whether the VFL team guys are more talented at the moment, it is will you bring heart despite your other shortcomings and comparatively lower skill sets.

Hannebery now preferring to use rear doors and tradesmen's entrance - welcome over staid. Will need to keep low profile around club for a while: useless as......

[Teflon]

Lethlean didn't believe there were issues with recruitment or with the game plan; more so with execution.

Well that’s a relief. No issues with recruiting or the game plan. Thank goodness for that.

I now understand the term Simple Simon.

Not so much simple as slippery.

Joffa mentioned in the Tony74 thread that there must be something not right in the club for these kind of abysmal showings to be happening.
It’s at senior management level and it’s called denial. It happened for years with Richo as coach and now it’s happening with Ratten as coach. Oh look the same people are in charge.
The suits at senior management level who make the recruiting and football dept decisions are apparently absolved of all responsibility because the problems are “not recruiting or game plan”.
We are lost whilst these individuals running the club continue to re-assure us there are no issues with these fundamentals.

Things sometimes don’t seem right but I ignore them. Last year, late in the season, there was an article on the club website with the club’s top ten trades of recent years listed. Hannebery was in there at number 5. At the time I winced and thought it was very odd. But.... we were having a good season....
Now it’s clear. Those at the top i.e Lethlean, Finnis, Sexton aren’t accountable. I’m sure they’ve got lots of corporate spin words and even KPI’s and milestones to meet, but it’s clear that it’s all bulls***.
If they want to take part in an honesty session, they are where the focus should be. What an abysmal joke and cruel outcome. F*** em. They’ve lost me and so has the club.

And anyone who wants to come on and have a crack about not being a genuine supporter etc etc etc, go F*** yourself in advance. Enough is enough of this abysmal, mediocre, glossy covered smut rag dressed up as a footy club.

Good post but let’s pray it’s a public saving face line and behind scenes that’s not the case
You can’t have zero talent in the cupboard and say we have no recruiting or list issues
Game day coaching needs overhaul drastically need some new ideas in box

[Jacks Back]

Lethlean didn't believe there were issues with recruitment or with the game plan; more so with execution.

Well that’s a relief. No issues with recruiting or the game plan. Thank goodness for that.

[st.byron]

Lethlean didn't believe there were issues with recruitment or with the game plan; more so with execution.

Well that’s a relief. No issues with recruiting or the game plan. Thank goodness for that.

I now understand the term Simple Simon.

Not so much simple as slippery.

Joffa mentioned in the Tony74 thread that there must be something not right in the club for these kind of abysmal showings to be happening.
It’s at senior management level and it’s called denial. It happened for years with Richo as coach and now it’s happening with Ratten as coach. Oh look the same people are in charge.
The suits at senior management level who make the recruiting and football dept decisions are apparently absolved of all responsibility because the problems are “not recruiting or game plan”.
We are lost whilst these individuals running the club continue to re-assure us there are no issues with these fundamentals.

Things sometimes don’t seem right but I ignore them. Last year, late in the season, there was an article on the club website with the club’s top ten trades of recent years listed. Hannebery was in there at number 5. At the time I winced and thought it was very odd. But.... we were having a good season....
Now it’s clear. Those at the top i.e Lethlean, Finnis, Sexton aren’t accountable. I’m sure they’ve got lots of corporate spin words and even KPI’s and milestones to meet, but it’s clear that it’s all bulls***.
If they want to take part in an honesty session, they are where the focus should be. What an abysmal joke and cruel outcome. F*** em. They’ve lost me and so has the club.

And anyone who wants to come on and have a crack about not being a genuine supporter etc etc etc, go F*** yourself in advance. Enough is enough of this abysmal, mediocre, glossy covered smut rag dressed up as a footy club.

Good post but let’s pray it’s a public saving face line and behind scenes that’s not the case
You can’t have zero talent in the cupboard and say we have no recruiting or list issues
Game day coaching needs overhaul drastically need some new ideas in box

Regrettably I don't believe so. We have the president making lame excuses like a little bitch and I read Lethlean this morning making noises about the buck stopping with him. Except it doesn't. He's a master of deflection and spin. Full of corporate BS.

[saintsRrising]

Ryder was an All Australian at Port

I was talking about compared to when he left and his perceived ability when he left. He has been better than expected for someone his age.

[saynta]

Lethlean didn't believe there were issues with recruitment or with the game plan; more so with execution.

Well that’s a relief. No issues with recruiting or the game plan. Thank goodness for that.

I now understand the term Simple Simon.

Not so much simple as slippery.

Joffa mentioned in the Tony74 thread that there must be something not right in the club for these kind of abysmal showings to be happening.
It’s at senior management level and it’s called denial. It happened for years with Richo as coach and now it’s happening with Ratten as coach. Oh look the same people are in charge.
The suits at senior management level who make the recruiting and football dept decisions are apparently absolved of all responsibility because the problems are “not recruiting or game plan”.
We are lost whilst these individuals running the club continue to re-assure us there are no issues with these fundamentals.

Things sometimes don’t seem right but I ignore them. Last year, late in the season, there was an article on the club website with the club’s top ten trades of recent years listed. Hannebery was in there at number 5. At the time I winced and thought it was very odd. But.... we were having a good season....
Now it’s clear. Those at the top i.e Lethlean, Finnis, Sexton aren’t accountable. I’m sure they’ve got lots of corporate spin words and even KPI’s and milestones to meet, but it’s clear that it’s all bulls***.
If they want to take part in an honesty session, they are where the focus should be. What an abysmal joke and cruel outcome. F*** em. They’ve lost me and so has the club.

And anyone who wants to come on and have a crack about not being a genuine supporter etc etc etc, go F*** yourself in advance. Enough is enough of this abysmal, mediocre, glossy covered smut rag dressed up as a footy club.

Good post but let’s pray it’s a public saving face line and behind scenes that’s not the case
You can’t have zero talent in the cupboard and say we have no recruiting or list issues
Game day coaching needs overhaul drastically need some new ideas in box

Regrettably I don't believe so. We have the president making lame excuses like a little bitch and I read Lethlean this morning making noises about the buck stopping with him. Except it doesn't. He's a master of deflection and spin. Full of corporate BS.

You were lucky to get away with that one.

[st.byron]

[
You were lucky to get away with that one.

Lucky or not. It's the truth I reckon. Yes a bit borderline under the not slagging off the club rule. It's a reflection of the level of frustration and disillusionment I have. Seriously, our premiership window starts next year as an excuse for the abysmal dross we're being served up. It's bloody insulting.
And if that's the level the club President is operating at it enables everyone else down the chain to live in fairy land. Lame as f***.

[WellardSaint]

I want most of the assistant coaches to go so we can get fresh blood n new ideas.

But then I think, nah, the players will all relax and tell themselves, and family, that 'see, it was never me, it was always those coaches to blame'.
BS.
The coach doesn't make u take short steps.
The coach doesn't make u stop chasing n tackling.

The coach doesn't make u kick for goal using your knee, or missing from 30m straight in front.
The coach doesn't make you run forward in waves hoping for a cheap easy over-the-back, while the oppo gets it and runs the other way with the nearest Saint being in the next bloody postcode

The buck stops with YOU, McKernan, Hill, Butler, Lonie, Coff, Battle, King, Frawley, etc etc, you heartless and gutless money-chasing underachievers

[saynta]

[
You were lucky to get away with that one.

Lucky or not. It's the truth I reckon. Yes a bit borderline under the not slagging off the club rule. It's a reflection of the level of frustration and disillusionment I have. Seriously, our premiership window starts next year as an excuse for the abysmal dross we're being served up. It's bloody insulting.
And if that's the level the club President is operating at it enables everyone else down the chain to live in fairy land. Lame as f***.