the view from the bridge

[Cairnsman]

Just to be clear, I welcome opposing views to mine

It honestly doesn't seem like it with all this 'groupthink' rubbish that you keep awkwardly spinning.

But it's difficult when you put up logic like, "he had us in the flag mix" and "we only won 4 games" and I predicted we'd finish 14th so validate me

The logic doesn't seem that hard of a concept to grasp, my opinion is that Cho has a really poor grasp of the job and this is reflected in his ruminations on the state of the list… and to be fair I only referenced my prediction of 14th after you accused me of being captain hindsight, I couldn't care less if I got that right or not … it seemed pretty obvious to a pleb like me that our list wasn't going to play a part in September even wihjout big injury concerns.

I hold the head coach accountable for the development of our young players, our game style, selection, culture, and the general way we go about playing - all putrid in Alan's 5th season IMO and 4 wins would validate this concern.

Freeman didn't get re-drafted that is not point of contention, but the concern I had was with him being dropped after performing reasonably well while others around him had been awful for weeks, particularly when we had absolutely nothing to play for. In 1.5 games his numbers were far better than half of our list so it seemed like a strange bench and dropping to me.

turns out it was the right decision,

It doesn't become a correct decision until the last players we drafted become better footballers than Freeman was.

Why are you so excited about round 6?

Apparently round 6 is when Alan gets the sack according to most of the expert failure-predictors on here, that's the camp you're in aren't you? If it's not round 6, when do you think he'll be sacked?

[samoht]

Someone should create a video with all the serially scapegoated and sacked St Kilda coaches over the years and set it to this song .....

[Cairnsman]

What was putrid were the injuries - but we got great development out of quite a few players - Austin , Steele (break-out year), Rice, McKenzie, Long was starting to show something after returning from injury, same with Acres.

Membrey , Steele, Ross, Roberton, Webster all bloomed and had their breakout seasons under AR.
Acres is set to have his breakout year in 2019 - as long as he staves off injury.

Steele, in fact, credited his breakout form to the coach, who he said challanged him by assigning him a run-with role against the top midfielders.

Our list is deficient and lacks balance - as Gallagher put it, it is "overweight" in some areas and "underweight" in others. I trust Gallagher's assessment, and agree with him, and I know a coach can only do "so much" with our list.
Last year, given our injuries and a hard draw, "so much" amounted to 4 and a half wins.

If we have a good run with injuries, we're probably an 11 -12 win team at best- and I note that AR had a couple of 50% W/L seasons in 2016, 2017.

The 2016 season was a big turn-around season for us - no-one expected it. What did we think of AR then (and what did we think of RL with his 4 win season in 2016, after Freo were a minor premier in 2015)?

To improve our list we need an A grade ruckman (ditch our untradeable F grade ruckmen), a reliable tall forward/power forward (who can kick his 2 or 3 goals), and an elite-skilled outside midfielder (or preferably two), and for Roberton to come back as good as new - that's it.
We need to stop blaming/scapegoating the coach for everything (the parade of scapegoated coaches at st Kilda has been a running joke and red herring, and has got us nowhere) and start recruiting what we need - focus on that.That's how you improve.

Well articulated. I agree on that's how you improve, incremental improvement should be the culture. Irrespective of who the coach is when we are next a consistent finals teams, which isn't far away, I think we will look back on 2018 as a year the club finally matured across the board and a year of consolidation. Predicting failure is easy, any fool can do it as the saying goes, identifying what can be achieved is a little more involved and trickier.

Can't wait for round 6.

[skeptic]

I don’t get the Freeman rationale either.

How is the fact that he didn’t get re-drafted mean it was good coaching to not reward good form and play him when he deserved it.
If they weren’t interested in playing him... why extend his contract in the first place?

But on the larger point here...
I would say the majority of ppl that have an axe to grind with Richo largely base it on what they see with field coaching, team selection and strategy

This mentality that ppl here blame h for everything is mystifying.
I don’t blame Alan for draft selections
I don’t hold him to account for trades
He’s also not responsible for debt, Moorabbin and membership.

It’s not his areas. Ppl that are critical are critical of coaching

[Ghost Like]

I enjoyed that post Samoht and agree with much of it.

I do have a couple of concerns though...

Even accounting for the loss of experience in 2018 and some injuries, St Kilda as an on field unit had no identifiable style, a style I believe, in the 5th year of a coach, should be recognisable. Now, in this pre season the mantra seems to be stripping the "game plan" back and keeping things simple. Our assistant coaches of 2018 appear to have copped the blame for this. Whilst I don't believe they were the greatest, I do believe the Head coach should be ultimately responsible for it.

Secondly, Gallagher did allude we were top heavy in some areas. I am guessing they are tall forwards, inside mids and half backs. Whilst I'm encouraged by our recruits and wish them nothing but the best, Gallagher's first effort has only increased the stock in those areas. That said, I expect the list changes and recruiting at the end of 2019 to address our need for outside, goal kicking mids and a quality ruckman. If not, then he proves he's not up to the role, in my opinion.

[samoht]

I enjoyed that post Samoht and agree with much of it.

I do have a couple of concerns though...

Even accounting for the loss of experience in 2018 and some injuries, St Kilda as an on field unit had no identifiable style, a style I believe, in the 5th year of a coach, should be recognisable. Now, in this pre season the mantra seems to be stripping the "game plan" back and keeping things simple. Our assistant coaches of 2018 appear to have copped the blame for this. Whilst I don't believe they were the greatest, I do believe the Head coach should be ultimately responsible for it.

Secondly, Gallagher did allude we were top heavy in some areas. I am guessing they are tall forwards, inside mids and half backs. Whilst I'm encouraged by our recruits and wish them nothing but the best, Gallagher's first effort has only increased the stock in those areas. That said, I expect the list changes and recruiting at the end of 2019 to address our need for outside, goal kicking mids and a quality ruckman. If not, then he proves he's not up to the role, in my opinion.

Good discussion (at last, not focussed on just blaming the coach for everything!) - you make some good points.

re: style - All I know is coaches can overcomplicate things. Often when things don't go their way and in order to get back into a game, they often throw their game styles/game plans out the window and get back to the simple "man on man" style.
I think our style is to kick the ball around in the backline and eventually release it to a player in the clear, and start to create chains of play that way. Where our game style falls down is we don't have enough players with elite kicking skills, to make the chains work all the way forward -and our F50 entries are very poor (due to our poor kicking skills - and not due to a flawed game plan based on "bombing the ball in").

I agree; while Gallagher identified the problem areas (where we were "overweight" and "underweight"), it didn't feel like we set about rebalancing our list inbalances in the right or sensible way.
We actually traded away our best ruckman who happened to be C grade, and we went too speculative with our picks - recruiting a lot of unproven pacy players (who were playing at lower levels, not at AFL level), an injury-prone smallish/pacy forward who was obviously surplus to the Demon's needs, and drafting an injured midfielder (with a back issue), and yet another tall forward (as if we don't have enough, already) who did his knee but might very well prove to be a star, after he puts on another 10 kgs, and after he overcomes his knee reconstruction, and who "will take time".
Maybe we are expecting Gresham and Coffield to suddenly become our outside midfielders (good luck with that)? .. as we haven't recruited any proven ones. This is the area we really, really needed to improve in (skillful outside midfielders).
It all sounds too hit and miss, very speculative and all over the shop.
Gallagher has not proven himself yet. He needs to execute - or make sure the recruiters execute. It's not enough to know and identify what the problem areas are - and pay lip service to them.
We need to take into account how all this speculative recruiting actually turns out and whether it has worked to address our list needs, before we can pass judgement on Gallagher and on the coach, for that matter.
2019 onwards we need to nail our recruiting - and go about it in a sensible way and with a plan - we can't afford any more speculation. We need to know what our list needs are and focus on addressing them.
We have a great home base now, and great/modern facilities - we can use this to our advantage, to start attracting some proven A graders that address our needs. We need to stop selling ourselves short.

[skeptic]

It seems like the new buzz theme on this forum is that ppl are blaming Richo for everything as opposed to blaming him for coaching decisions which is by and large what I read

[samoht]

It seems like the new buzz theme on this forum is that ppl are blaming Richo for everything as opposed to blaming him for coaching decisions which is by and large what I read

The coach can't always be the problem at St Kilda and the perpetual scapegoat - while other bigger ones keep being swept under the carpet.
Recruiting has been our bigger problem area the last 10-12 years - and judging by this year's speculative recruiting, I'm not sure if we've improved in this area (I concur with Ghost Like's view).

[Ghost Like]

It seems like the new buzz theme on this forum is that ppl are blaming Richo for everything as opposed to blaming him for coaching decisions which is by and large what I read

Is it that St Kilda have got itself into a "chicken or the egg" scenario? Is it the List, the Coaches, the Development, the Administration? Each of these areas require improvement but seem to escape proper addressing because another area can be blamed. Bringing due attention to each of these simultaneously will be / should be our new President's number one priority.

[skeptic]

It seems like the new buzz theme on this forum is that ppl are blaming Richo for everything as opposed to blaming him for coaching decisions which is by and large what I read

The coach can't always be the problem at St Kilda and the perpetual scapegoat - while other bigger ones keep being swept under the carpet.
Recruiting has been our bigger problem area the last 10-12 years - and judging by this year's speculative recruiting, I'm not sure if we've improved in this area (I concur with Ghost Like's view).

I don’t disagree with you...
But I don’t see anybody blaming Richo for recruiting.

That’s kind of my point.
We’re seeing this point with increased regularity: it can’t all be Richo’s fault.

It’s correct but from where I sit, ppl blame Richo for poor coaching, selection, development etc and that’s pbly fair enough.

I don’t see ppl blaming Richo for poor recruitment, poor trading, bad financial management, issues with Sandy/Moorabbin etc and if they do... it’s by far the exception rather than the norm

[skeptic]

It seems like the new buzz theme on this forum is that ppl are blaming Richo for everything as opposed to blaming him for coaching decisions which is by and large what I read

Is it that St Kilda have got itself into a "chicken or the egg" scenario? Is it the List, the Coaches, the Development, the Administration? Each of these areas require improvement but seem to escape proper addressing because another area can be blamed. Bringing due attention to each of these simultaneously will be / should be our new President's number one priority.

100% agree and the reality is that all of these ideas can exist simultaneously with each other.

Our recruiting needs to get better as does the coaching/development and admin in setting it all up. All of these things directly impact on the other.

[Cairnsman]

I don’t get the Freeman rationale either.

How is the fact that he didn’t get re-drafted mean it was good coaching to not reward good form and play him when he deserved it.
If they weren’t interested in playing him... why extend his contract in the first place?

But on the larger point here...
I would say the majority of ppl that have an axe to grind with Richo largely base it on what they see with field coaching, team selection and strategy

This mentality that ppl here blame h for everything is mystifying.
I don’t blame Alan for draft selections
I don’t hold him to account for trades
He’s also not responsible for debt, Moorabbin and membership.

It’s not his areas. Ppl that are critical are critical of coaching

Reward good form for sure, but it has to be sustainable AFL standard doesn't it. So if his form showed this attribute why didn't another club pick him up on that basis alone?

[skeptic]

I don’t get the Freeman rationale either.

How is the fact that he didn’t get re-drafted mean it was good coaching to not reward good form and play him when he deserved it.
If they weren’t interested in playing him... why extend his contract in the first place?

But on the larger point here...
I would say the majority of ppl that have an axe to grind with Richo largely base it on what they see with field coaching, team selection and strategy

This mentality that ppl here blame h for everything is mystifying.
I don’t blame Alan for draft selections
I don’t hold him to account for trades
He’s also not responsible for debt, Moorabbin and membership.

It’s not his areas. Ppl that are critical are critical of coaching

Reward good form for sure, but it has to be sustainable AFL standard doesn't it. So if his form showed this attribute why didn't another club pick him up on that basis alone?

How can it if he doesn’t get the chance to

[dragit]

Apparently round 6 is when Alan gets the sack according to most of the expert failure-predictors on here, that's the camp you're in aren't you? If it's not round 6, when do you think he'll be sacked?

Man it sounds like you have a real persecution complex.

I assume you are talking about the 2 & 4 thread?

The only two people I can see who predicted round 6 were two well respected posters @Sainter_Dad & @Bernard Shakey as they had both heard something about about 2&4 getting Richo sacked, are they considered expert failure predictors?

I'm not really sure when he'll be sacked, my guess would be going into the bye if we only have 2 or 3 wins, otherwise late July when we are 4 and 15. You obviously think he'll be there in 2020 if you're predicting finals?

The only was I can see a sacking as early as round six would be if they have already decided to get rid of him and are waiting on that get-out-clause mentioned. This would 100% highlight the mistake of an early extension and be pretty embarrassing for those responsible… a mere 6 weeks into a 2 year extension.

[sunsaint]

Reward good form for sure, but it has to be sustainable AFL standard doesn't it. So if his form showed this attribute why didn't another club pick him up on that basis alone?

How can it if he doesn’t get the chance to

agreed - with zero facts to back me up - Im going to go out on a limb and say no other delisted player with 2 games from the 2013 draft - was picked up by another club.
I might be worng tho
...wron..
nah
poor rationale to support a clubs decision - which may pose the question does the club have a fatal attraction for recruiting busted up broken players?

[sunsaint]

Someone should create a video with all the serially scapegoated and sacked St Kilda coaches over the years and set it to this song .....

"another one bites the dust - Queen"

lets be positive
Surely after round 1 - should we beat the Suns - it will be

[ListManager]

With the retirements of Joey and Rooey, 2018 was the year we had to have. It has shown the players that they need to step up to the plate otherwise it will all fall apart. Watch for a huge step up in 2019 (from a performance and leadership perspective) from Billings, Newnes, Membrey, Sinclair, Rice. Add a fully fit Haneberry, Roberton, Longer and Bruce plus natural progression of Coffield, Gresham, Acres, Steele, Clark, Long and then the usual top line performers in Carlisle, Steven, and Ross. With a little luck from the injury Gods I think the Saints will make top 4.

[Cairnsman]

I don’t get the Freeman rationale either.

How is the fact that he didn’t get re-drafted mean it was good coaching to not reward good form and play him when he deserved it.
If they weren’t interested in playing him... why extend his contract in the first place?

But on the larger point here...
I would say the majority of ppl that have an axe to grind with Richo largely base it on what they see with field coaching, team selection and strategy

This mentality that ppl here blame h for everything is mystifying.
I don’t blame Alan for draft selections
I don’t hold him to account for trades
He’s also not responsible for debt, Moorabbin and membership.

It’s not his areas. Ppl that are critical are critical of coaching

Reward good form for sure, but it has to be sustainable AFL standard doesn't it. So if his form showed this attribute why didn't another club pick him up on that basis alone?

How can it if he doesn’t get the chance to

He played enough in the VFL to prove himself, that's a pretty big chance. He looked like he had no trust in his legs.

[Cairnsman]

Apparently round 6 is when Alan gets the sack according to most of the expert failure-predictors on here, that's the camp you're in aren't you? If it's not round 6, when do you think he'll be sacked?

Man it sounds like you have a real persecution complex.

I assume you are talking about the 2 & 4 thread?

The only two people I can see who predicted round 6 were two well respected posters @Sainter_Dad & @Bernard Shakey as they had both heard something about about 2&4 getting Richo sacked, are they considered expert failure predictors?

I'm not really sure when he'll be sacked, my guess would be going into the bye if we only have 2 or 3 wins, otherwise late July when we are 4 and 15. You obviously think he'll be there in 2020 if you're predicting finals?

The only was I can see a sacking as early as round six would be if they have already decided to get rid of him and are waiting on that get-out-clause mentioned. This would 100% highlight the mistake of an early extension and be pretty embarrassing for those responsible… a mere 6 weeks into a 2 year extension.

Persecution complex?

[derby Street]

Apparently round 6 is when Alan gets the sack according to most of the expert failure-predictors on here, that's the camp you're in aren't you? If it's not round 6, when do you think he'll be sacked?

The only two people I can see who predicted round 6 were two well respected posters @Sainter_Dad & @Bernard Shakey as they had both heard something about about 2&4 getting Richo sacked, are they considered expert failure predictors?

Phew Dragit, for a moment there I thought you were going to mention your idol - Con G. That would have derailed things considerably

[Scollop]

I certainly hope the new staff usher in a better era on the field, because the severe debt the club currently finds itself in really is looming large on the horizon.

I mean, after asking members, supporters and benefactors for money to get back to Moorabbin, when is it acceptable to go back to the entire supporter base with the hat out asking for more money for a debt demolition? Surely this conundrum has been discussed at board level.

I said to my better half the other night that if I’d won the $100 million powerball I would have gone to the Saints with a cheque for $13 million the following week. I was in the bad books for thinking about the club before thinking about her.... hehe. I really would have done it too... Don’t underestimate how much I love the St Kilda footy Club.

But when can the club ask for more financial help?

The club won't go broke, it is merely a cost centre of the AFL so our debt will always be underwritten by the AFL. All AFL clubs are part of one big factory making different widgets for a bigger mechanism. If you lose one widget the mechanism doesn't work.

If there were say 4-5 Victorain clubs continually bleeding money and let's assume that things get worse for us and a few other clubs over the next decade and you add the money being poured into the interstate stragglers, there has to be a time at which the AFL starts restructuring the factory I think.

There was a short news story on channel 7 Melbourne today. I didn't see it but was told thirdhand that the story mentioned St Kilda's $12 million debt. Anyone catch the gist of it?

I'm betting that ten years from now if the AFL has to choose between perennially propping up a weak team interstate or perennially propping up a Victorian team we may be merged to help 'grow the mechanism' interstate

[Ghost Like]

I think that is a reasonable assumption Scollop. Unfortunately if we were to go by the by there would be no Polly Waffle happy ending.

We cannot keep showing poor returns, making poor administration decisions, poor recruiting and trading decisions and expect to survive long term. 2019 & 2020 are line in the sand years I believe. We have to show the AFL and prove to other we are valuable to the competition.

This really is about taking ownership, showing pride and respect in the jumper, the crest, the past players, adminstrators and supporters who have done so much in the past to keep us going and make us relevant. I think the time is now, we can't wait or sit back and rely on something out of our control.

[samoht]

I think that is a reasonable assumption Scollop. Unfortunately if we were to go by the by there would be no Polly Waffle happy ending.

We cannot keep showing poor returns, making poor administration decisions, poor recruiting and trading decisions and expect to survive long term. 2019 & 2020 are line in the sand years I believe. We have to show the AFL and prove to other we are valuable to the competition.

This really is about taking ownership, showing pride and respect in the jumper, the crest, the past players, adminstrators and supporters who have done so much in the past to keep us going and make us relevant. I think the time is now, we can't wait or sit back and rely on something out of our control.

Exactly! We need to "prop ourselves up", and get back on our feet by making the right decisions - not wait for the AFL to rescue us (as they may decide not to, or force us to merge, as scollop said).
If we keep burying our head in the sand and keep blaming it all on our coaches and we keep sacking one after the other and scapegoating them and replacing them with "better and better" ones, in search of the "super-duper coach"(you'd think we'd have got there by now by continually/serially improving on the previous one) - in the false belief that this will solve everything - while we keep making poor administrative and poor recruiting decisions (and keep thinking nothing of it) - we will only have ourselves to blame, if we go belly up.

[Cairnsman]

I certainly hope the new staff usher in a better era on the field, because the severe debt the club currently finds itself in really is looming large on the horizon.

I mean, after asking members, supporters and benefactors for money to get back to Moorabbin, when is it acceptable to go back to the entire supporter base with the hat out asking for more money for a debt demolition? Surely this conundrum has been discussed at board level.

I said to my better half the other night that if I’d won the $100 million powerball I would have gone to the Saints with a cheque for $13 million the following week. I was in the bad books for thinking about the club before thinking about her.... hehe. I really would have done it too... Don’t underestimate how much I love the St Kilda footy Club.

But when can the club ask for more financial help?

The club won't go broke, it is merely a cost centre of the AFL so our debt will always be underwritten by the AFL. All AFL clubs are part of one big factory making different widgets for a bigger mechanism. If you lose one widget the mechanism doesn't work.

If there were say 4-5 Victorain clubs continually bleeding money and let's assume that things get worse for us and a few other clubs over the next decade and you add the money being poured into the interstate stragglers, there has to be a time at which the AFL starts restructuring the factory I think.

There was a short news story on channel 7 Melbourne today. I didn't see it but was told thirdhand that the story mentioned St Kilda's $12 million debt. Anyone catch the gist of it?

I'm betting that ten years from now if the AFL has to choose between perennially propping up a weak team interstate or perennially propping up a Victorian team we may be merged to help 'grow the mechanism' interstate

You have to be careful about reading too much into thirdhand news, it can make you jump at shaddows. However I heard 5th hand the AFL likes the St Kilda Football Club and thinks it's a very important part of thier business and does everything it can to help it contribute to corporate goals. From the same source I also heard they don't treat the club as an enemy.

[Scollop]

I certainly hope the new staff usher in a better era on the field, because the severe debt the club currently finds itself in really is looming large on the horizon.

I mean, after asking members, supporters and benefactors for money to get back to Moorabbin, when is it acceptable to go back to the entire supporter base with the hat out asking for more money for a debt demolition? Surely this conundrum has been discussed at board level.

I said to my better half the other night that if I’d won the $100 million powerball I would have gone to the Saints with a cheque for $13 million the following week. I was in the bad books for thinking about the club before thinking about her.... hehe. I really would have done it too... Don’t underestimate how much I love the St Kilda footy Club.

But when can the club ask for more financial help?

The club won't go broke, it is merely a cost centre of the AFL so our debt will always be underwritten by the AFL. All AFL clubs are part of one big factory making different widgets for a bigger mechanism. If you lose one widget the mechanism doesn't work.

If there were say 4-5 Victorain clubs continually bleeding money and let's assume that things get worse for us and a few other clubs over the next decade and you add the money being poured into the interstate stragglers, there has to be a time at which the AFL starts restructuring the factory I think.

There was a short news story on channel 7 Melbourne today. I didn't see it but was told thirdhand that the story mentioned St Kilda's $12 million debt. Anyone catch the gist of it?

I'm betting that ten years from now if the AFL has to choose between perennially propping up a weak team interstate or perennially propping up a Victorian team we may be merged to help 'grow the mechanism' interstate

You have to be careful about reading too much into thirdhand news, it can make you jump at shaddows. However I heard 5th hand the AFL likes the St Kilda Football Club and thinks it's a very important part of thier business and does everything it can to help it contribute to corporate goals. From the same source I also heard they don't treat the club as an enemy.

You stated that "our debt will always be underwritten by the AFL"

You cannot predict the future and you cannot predict what decisions different personnel and different AFL management teams will decide in years to come. We can't rely on being friends with the AFL forever. Only good footy and a competitive team will attract sponsors and ratings. We need administrators at St Kilda who can help the team with on field success asap so that we can determine our own destiny

This administration has taken the team backward and I predict we will stagnate where 2019 will just mirror last year. We should have changed and had a cleanout of admin and coaches mid way through 2018. It gets harder and harder to lure good players and lure the best coaches which in turn creates a snowball effect and attracts the big fish and stars required to compete with the power clubs