We're Just Not Good Enough

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lennyhaze
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652595Post lennyhaze »

Johnny Member wrote:
The Fireman wrote:I'll ask again, will the OP reconsider if we make the 8
??

Not at all.

Making the 8 isn't good enough.


It's a good effort this season, but beyond that? That's not enough.



My point isn't that we don't have the talent to make the 8 - it's that we aren't good enough to win a flag.


Making the 8 this year won't change that. Unless of course, I'm proving wrong (hopefully) and two or three dudes step and become stars by year's end.

I'm unsure anyone knows if this list is good enough to win a flag. You are probably right in that it may take another 2 or so years so obviously this exact same list wont be going to win a flag unless it happened this year but then again most would have said the WB list wasn't good enough last year. All we as supporters can do is hope the club get nearly everything right off the field and from the outside it certainly seems they are doing that. If only they did that right around 2004 and 2009.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652614Post Bluthy »

Image

Lets just play a few games this year before we give up on the next ten years.

I am worried we didn't bottom out enough to get a few more really high draft picks. Pick 1, 3 & 5 (which we traded out for Carsile who has had some injuries). Is that enough to build another dynasty? Our last dynasty was built on Rooey, Ball, Goddard picks 1, Kosi pick 2, Lenny pick 7 I think. We needed that advantage as as a club we were behind the eight-ball with money, training facilities etc. but we have improved in that area.

Billings I disagree with you JM> He is showing signs of brilliance already and this preseason is chalking up possessions at will now he's over all his injuries and had a solid preseason. He's got that high footy intelligence I value. He's one of our few who can almost always get it out cleanly and intelligently in heavy traffic.

I'm a McCartin fan. I think most flag winner have that huge, defender-splitting big fwds sending the backmen flying like ten-pins and opening things up. They come into their own in the congestion of finals. But if Paddy can stay on the park he's showing signs his endurance is getting up there and can mark well, kick long, kick pretty straight, his field kicking is pretty damn good for a big unit and he seems a clever player who can set others up. I likey. Yes, if Petracca becomes a gun it will twinge the "Did we choose wrong" nerve. But if we can keep working our engine room over to get upto a high level, our investment in spine will pay off huge.

I think there is great potential in Acres, Gresham, Long, Steele (who showed signs he could be "the man" for us as the inside/outside marquee onballer), White, Rice. There is some real talent and x-factor there. Will they come on to become the a-graders/elite we need is the question. And whether Richo will play them enough is another.

Dermot says if a player is a gun they will nearly always show it by their third year. You may still be struggling with your tank and size but if you got talent, you got talent and you will be able to show it. 95% or AFL players are good players but don't have that high, creative, x-factor instinct that lets the special ones do things others can't. Thats why I'm putting a fair bit of stock in this years performance. Billings, McCartin, Acres and Carlisel have all suffered injuries that have slowed them down a bit. But few excuses this year with Billings and Acres in their 4th year, Paddy his 3rd. Time to show why we used our high picks on them

Footy fans obsess over lists but don't often seem to consider coaches as much in how players are performing. A good system lets the players shine. Billings is an amazing talent. If Richo can't get the best out of him then questions have to be asked. Melbourne didn't just take bad pick after bad pick - their whole system was flawed.

If you only have 18 head coaches, the ability to get a competitive advantage is huge with your coach of choice whereas lists tend to even themselves out with 40 or so for each team. That's why I put great stock in a great coach with a clever, innovative system - it amplifies everything and lets you get a genuine advantage. Wouldn't surprise me if Clarkson gets Hawks back up and running for a top 4 again. His system is so clever. Richo has some good talent and now some older, bigger body players around them. No exuses anymore. Richo needs to show he can coach at a high level with innovation and vision to get the best out of our players.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652630Post saynta »

Ball was a no.2 pick. Hodge was no.1 in 2001.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652643Post minneapolis »

White Winmar wrote:
saintbrat wrote:JM working himself the reverse Psychology- anti depression method.

if you don't think the team will do well- then anything they do well is a pleasing event. :D

setting himself up for a happy year...
I wrote a book about reverse psychology. Don't buy it!
I am gonna buy it but not read it. So there.


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White Winmar
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652646Post White Winmar »

minneapolis wrote:
White Winmar wrote:
saintbrat wrote:JM working himself the reverse Psychology- anti depression method.

if you don't think the team will do well- then anything they do well is a pleasing event. :D

setting himself up for a happy year...
I wrote a book about reverse psychology. Don't buy it!
I am gonna buy it but not read it. So there.
See, it works! :D


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652744Post AeonFlux »

Johnny Member wrote:
saynta wrote:Ross is already A grade talent and Gresham will soon join him.
Ross is good. But in a comp where Fyfe, Dangerfield, Ablett, Bont, Sloane, Selwood, Pendlebury etc. are getting around, I think it's a stretch to include him as a A-grader.
Saynta disagrees Johnny. And from reports received, at least three others do too.
RD 14 2016
St Kilda 14.9 (93) Geelong 13.12 (90) at ES

3. S Ross (StK)

2. N Riewoldt (StK)

1. J Selwood (Gee)
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/a ... rp0sp.html


What would Rodger think? :wink:


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652884Post Johnny Member »

Just to clarify a few things that either I didn't articulate well enough in the OP - or were misinterpreted by some posters...


The OP and its premise, was not a response to the Port JLT game. It was a view formed toward the end of last season. It was supported a little by the Port game, but not much.

I like McCartin and rate him. I didn't knock him. I knocked the way he's being used. And I moreso queried why you'd use the no. 1 pick on a guy to play that 'lead up'/workhorse forward role. McCartin should be being groomed as a deeper F50 target who will win the pill in marking contests. If he can't do that, or won't be able to do that - then we wasted the no. 1 pick. If he can do that, that's what he should be doing and the no. 1 pick is totally justified.

The theory about us not being good enough, is based on the club's mission statement:

The vision is to ensure the club is "admired as a competition leader in recruiting, player development and coaching" by 2018.


I think this is on track. Other clubs have already mimicked our trading out of older stalwarts, for longer term value. If the media vibe is anything to go by, the above target is on track.


The plan is to deliver Grand Final success before 2020 – which will be the Saints' second flag after their sole 1966 triumph – and ensure the club is in the top four by 2018.


So this means, we are aiming to be top 4 either this year or next. And, will win a flag either this year, next year or the one after. This means, the list we have built, the way they are coached and the way they play was designed to achieve the ultimate success.

The draftees this year would be a part of it - but realistically next year's wont unless we fluke a ready made player with a lowish pick.

So unless we recruit ready made players then the list we currently have, is pretty close to the one that the club needs to win a flag before 2020.


I don't think it's good enough.


To put it into perspective, Jack Steele on early form, looks to be our second best on-baller! He couldn't even get a game at GWS!

Our forward line looks good. Very good. It is versatile, and has depth. Defence now looks really good with Carlisle back there to allow the Dempster's of the world to play the type of role they are actually suited to.


But our midfield isn't good enough. Last year it was glaring, and even in the JLT so far it's blatant - when Jack Steven isn't on the ground, we have no zip, no line breakers, no potency. Our midfield is very average without Steven. You don't win flags without a good midfield.
Last edited by Johnny Member on Tue 07 Mar 2017 10:58am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652885Post Johnny Member »

AeonFlux wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
saynta wrote:Ross is already A grade talent and Gresham will soon join him.
Ross is good. But in a comp where Fyfe, Dangerfield, Ablett, Bont, Sloane, Selwood, Pendlebury etc. are getting around, I think it's a stretch to include him as a A-grader.
Saynta disagrees Johnny. And from reports received, at least three others do too.
RD 14 2016
St Kilda 14.9 (93) Geelong 13.12 (90) at ES

3. S Ross (StK)

2. N Riewoldt (StK)

1. J Selwood (Gee)
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/a ... rp0sp.html


What would Rodger think? :wink:
Jason Blake received 2 Brownlow votes against Gold Coast.

Does that make him better than Gary Ablett Jnr?


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652886Post Johnny Member »

lennyhaze wrote:

I'm unsure anyone knows if this list is good enough to win a flag. You are probably right in that it may take another 2 or so years so obviously this exact same list wont be going to win a flag unless it happened this year but then again most would have said the WB list wasn't good enough last year. All we as supporters can do is hope the club get nearly everything right off the field and from the outside it certainly seems they are doing that. If only they did that right around 2004 and 2009.

Valid points.

However....

I think the Bulldogs thing is a bit of a myth. History has been rewritten that they were some kind of anomaly with no talent and just were a bolt from the blue that fluked it.


They started building their list about 5 years ago. They did it the same way all clubs do. They recruited a lot of depth, but didn't nut any 'A-Grade' talent immediately. It's forgotten that Liberatore is a legitimate A-Grader, and has been for a couple of seasons. Matthew Boyd is an A-Grader and was AA last year. So was Stringer and Easton Wood in 2015. They had 5 in the 2015 AA squad.

Then, the Bont was also AA last year - a genuine superstar.

They then poached a $1m man and no. 1 pick who came out and dominated the Grand Final.


On top of this, as per above, they'd already built the depth.


Johannison was no fluke either. I don't think many thought he'd be as good as he was as quickly as he was - but the concept of him becoming a genuine A-Grader wasn't a crazy thought. Most saw his potential before his injury.


And that's my point - who are our genuine A-Graders right now? And, more to the point - who are the guys like Johannison that we realistically see as having a very probable chance of being a star?



So using the Bulldogs as some kind of example that 'anything's possible' is a myth. They are well coached, well drilled but also have more A-Grade talent than most clubs - especially us!


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652891Post magnifisaint »

Hindsight is a beautiful thing


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652892Post Johnny Member »

magnifisaint wrote:Hindsight is a beautiful thing
As per above - it wasn't hindsight.

That's the whole point.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652894Post MC Gusto »

i think you have made some calls on our drafting and on players who are 2nd year, 3rd year and maybe if you are lucky, going in to their 4th year this year!

far too early.

not every player is a bont eg A grade in second year.

i ask you - when did danger, selwood, fyfe etc become out and out stars. Danger was like his 5th year right? Fyfe?

perspective is required. judge billings on his year this year (3rd) and his first without injury

Paddy flat handed? his marking is virtually A grade! took 15 clunks on the weekend.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652897Post samoht »

.. And there was one mark that Bruce dropped where he shook his head in dismay and mouthed an obvious expletive.
Clearly, all our forwards are going for their marks, unless they are out of position and unlikely to mark.
Then it would make sense to tap it towards a team mate.
Last edited by samoht on Tue 07 Mar 2017 12:26pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652899Post SMS »

We can defo make top 4 this year.
We have a great blend of youngsters and seniors on every line what is he problem?
Beats forward and back.
I think many here are going to bw shocked at what we achieve this year.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652900Post SMS »

Plus we are getting fyfe. Anyone with inside knowledge knows its a done deal.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652903Post remboy »

No, we aren't good enough to win a flag this year. Big deal. You can't go from where we were three years ago to a flag that quickly. I think we are building well though. Add two more first round picks add then end of this year and that should improve us. Add an A grade free agent, that we have cap space for and our list improves even further.
I think JM made a good point about our midfield probably being our weak point (compared to our depth forward and back) but if the first round picks and free agency net us at least one one Fyfe or Martin and a young mid or two with similar potential and I think we'll be a long way toward filling that hole.
Either way I'm more excited about this season than I have been for at least five years. We might not win the flag but I'm looking forward to seeing what we are capable of.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652906Post Johnny Member »

MC Gusto wrote:i think you have made some calls on our drafting and on players who are 2nd year, 3rd year and maybe if you are lucky, going in to their 4th year this year!

far too early.

not every player is a bont eg A grade in second year.

i ask you - when did danger, selwood, fyfe etc become out and out stars. Danger was like his 5th year right? Fyfe?

perspective is required. judge billings on his year this year (3rd) and his first without injury

Paddy flat handed? his marking is virtually A grade! took 15 clunks on the weekend.

I'm not expecting them all, all neccessarily any of them to be performing at the 'A-Grade' level - but you can often tell by this stage, whether or not they'll actually ever get to that level. Not always - but often.

Dangerfield, Selwood, Bont, Judd, etc. etc. etc.


They didn't all have the output of superstars from the start, or even by their 2nd or 3rd year - but the signs were there.


I don't see the signs personally with any of our guys. Acres maybe, Gresham hopefully, Billings hopefully?


Example: When Carlisle wanted to come to the Saints, the only player on the list that Essendon were interested in considering for a trade was Billings. No one else was considered of any value now, or in the future by them. That's telling, if not concerning.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652910Post prwilkinson »

There's an article Jon Ralph wrote about the Geelong Cats back in 2006, basically saying half of their list wasn't up to it and there barely a future All Australian amongst them. Brian Cook keeps a copy of it signed by Jon Ralph in his office. This thread reminds me of that article.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652912Post saynta »

Johnny Member wrote:Just to clarify a few things that either I didn't articulate well enough in the OP - or were misinterpreted by some posters...


The OP and its premise, was not a response to the Port JLT game. It was a view formed toward the end of last season. It was supported a little by the Port game, but not much.

I like McCartin and rate him. I didn't knock him. I knocked the way he's being used. And I moreso queried why you'd use the no. 1 pick on a guy to play that 'lead up'/workhorse forward role. McCartin should be being groomed as a deeper F50 target who will win the pill in marking contests. If he can't do that, or won't be able to do that - then we wasted the no. 1 pick. If he can do that, that's what he should be doing and the no. 1 pick is totally justified.

The theory about us not being good enough, is based on the club's mission statement:

The vision is to ensure the club is "admired as a competition leader in recruiting, player development and coaching" by 2018.


I think this is on track. Other clubs have already mimicked our trading out of older stalwarts, for longer term value. If the media vibe is anything to go by, the above target is on track.


The plan is to deliver Grand Final success before 2020 – which will be the Saints' second flag after their sole 1966 triumph – and ensure the club is in the top four by 2018.


So this means, we are aiming to be top 4 either this year or next. And, will win a flag either this year, next year or the one after. This means, the list we have built, the way they are coached and the way they play was designed to achieve the ultimate success.

The draftees this year would be a part of it - but realistically next year's wont unless we fluke a ready made player with a lowish pick.

So unless we recruit ready made players then the list we currently have, is pretty close to the one that the club needs to win a flag before 2020.


I don't think it's good enough.


To put it into perspective, Jack Steele on early form, looks to be our second best on-baller! He couldn't even get a game at GWS!

Our forward line looks good. Very good. It is versatile, and has depth. Defence now looks really good with Carlisle back there to allow the Dempster's of the world to play the type of role they are actually suited to.


But our midfield isn't good enough. Last year it was glaring, and even in the JLT so far it's blatant - when Jack Steven isn't on the ground, we have no zip, no line breakers, no potency. Our midfield is very average without Steven. You don't win flags without a good midfield.
The comment on Steele is just p;lain rubbish.

He couldn't get a game because he was injured.

Lets just wait and see how this mid field group gels together before writing them off as not good enough.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652915Post timma »

Saint_J wrote:I'm a Patty fan and I know he will take time to get going. He's already shown some top signs. But, Petracca he's already influencing and will only get better. I believe backing the clubs selections... god sometimes i wonder.

2017 i'm very positive can see us with 10-12(maybe more) wins making the 8 and finishing above Melbounre :D

go saints!
Pretty tough comparing a key forward to a small forward/mid 15 games into their careers. Paddy will take more time to develop into his role. Petracca may turn out to be the better playing, but far too early to tell. Richard Tambling kicked more goals than Roughead over their first two years.... Deledio might be a better comparison, looked a great player from the start and has had a successful career. Long term, was he a better pick at number 1 for the tigers than Roughhead? (we will keep Buddy out of the equation).

Also think the Tom Boyd transaction the off-season Paddy was drafted may of influenced the decision, even Charlie Dixon to a lesser extent. The asking price for a young promising key forward (although untested) in trade/free agency is much higher than that of a similar midfielder.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652916Post Johnny Member »

prwilkinson wrote:There's an article Jon Ralph wrote about the Geelong Cats back in 2006, basically saying half of their list wasn't up to it and there barely a future All Australian amongst them. Brian Cook keeps a copy of it signed by Jon Ralph in his office. This thread reminds me of that article.

Ask Bomber Thompson what he thought of their list though.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652919Post saintsRrising »

Johnny Member wrote:
prwilkinson wrote:There's an article Jon Ralph wrote about the Geelong Cats back in 2006, basically saying half of their list wasn't up to it and there barely a future All Australian amongst them. Brian Cook keeps a copy of it signed by Jon Ralph in his office. This thread reminds me of that article.

Ask Bomber Thompson what he thought of their list though.

By the same loigic, ask Richo what he thinks of our list too....


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652936Post Johnny Member »

saintsRrising wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
prwilkinson wrote:There's an article Jon Ralph wrote about the Geelong Cats back in 2006, basically saying half of their list wasn't up to it and there barely a future All Australian amongst them. Brian Cook keeps a copy of it signed by Jon Ralph in his office. This thread reminds me of that article.

Ask Bomber Thompson what he thought of their list though.

By the same loigic, ask Richo what he thinks of our list too....

Well Thompson publicly spruiked the talent on his list in 2004.


So we know he believed it was full of talent. Contrary to what that simpleton Jon Ralph thought.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652939Post Trev from the Bush »

Well, Johnny, I have lost count of how many counter-punches you have thrown in this contest of your own making.

You have expressed your opinion, you really don't have to defend everytime somebody takes an alternate view.

Have a chill pill, mate, because you will not enjoy one minute of this season unless you are proven 100% correct with your prognosis. Just a hin, this is 2017 not 2014 and I think StKilda has moved onwards and upwards. Everybody must feel a little jaded by Chicken Little impersonators by now.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1652942Post BigMart »

Why can't he debate his pov?


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