Moorabbin - Trouble Ahead

[The Fireman]

You can't have your club and eat it too.

[gringo]

Did you know that there is a limit on the number of pokies (electronic gaming machines).
30,000 in total with 2,500 of those in Crown.
Other venues limited to 105 and a club limited to 420.
So that means 4 venues of 105 or 5 venues average 84.
87% must be returned in winnings and special jackpots.
The number of spins per minute is limited to 28.
87% compounded 28 time leaves you with 2.67%.

Did you know that people who play pokies are losers.

So why would you want our club to be full of losers? What would you want our proud club to fleece losers? Maybe we should make more money off losers in other ways, like having drive through garbage fast food restaurants for fatarses too lazy to go for a walk or cook something. Maybe we can get these losers to all pay money to sit in a chair eating overpriced garbage and watching talentless fools crack poor jokes.

Losers - that's what our club should be built on? That's what we are?

It's like a gun amnesty, you can't really give up that revenue stream unless they say it's not legal for football clubs to be involved in gambling pursuits. I would love no club to have pokies. I would even love no pokies but it's hard to see it ever going away. The government sucks on it's teat too much. I find the betting on the AFL distasteful and opened our sport up to unsavoury practices but what can you do.

Anyway, the pokies aren't going anywhere and the only way the Moorabin oval can pay it's way is through the dirty money they get from pokies. Leasing it to local footy clubs will possibly help pay for the turf management but that's about it.

[saintspremiers]

so what all the non pokies lovers are sayin is if we dont have the pokies the community will be saved and better for it?
even tho if we dont get em someone else will get em down the road?

so
on that note, that pokies are bad
whats the alternatives to bring in the same revenue that the pokies wouldve brought in?

Hugging trees, eating tofu whilst gouging on gluten free, fructose free, low carb food.

[SaintPav]

I can't believe what I'm reading but obviously several libertarians and a few spokespeople from the Gaming Council on here. Who would have figured.

The poker-machine industry facilitated by the state is unethical because it causes harm, usually to those who can least afford it.

People say, it's about having self-control. The assumption is that everyone is equal and that everyone has the same level of control. Heavy users and addicts lose control. Government perpetrates and benefits from the harm and gambling addiction; while poker machine manufacturers and gaming venues profit directly from the harm and misery they cause. Gambling addiction also has wider societal implications and community costs.

Also, the machines are rigged and the outcomes over time are pre determined.

Poker machines and gaming venues might be legal but that doesn't mean that they are ethical.

Defending the indefensible.

Moral crusading.

F*ck

me

drunk.

[plugger66]

So how much do we make from Pokies if the social club revenue is $2 Million how much profit are we making on that revenue. Ultimately this is a side buisness it adds nothing to the club apart from the cash it contributes to the bottom line, and arguably tarnishes the brand. I would have to agree with the caller that having a Pokies venue at the new community hub of football in the South East is counter productive. You would want Moorabin to be a place familys gather to use the park and watch local footy of a variety of levels, see the Saints train and generally be a hub for the positive and healthy aspects of sport.

If Pokies are that important to our bottom line and we have to retain them for the revenue then I hope we could consider locating them somewhere else or leasing the licences to another operator or something like that. Making our social club a Pokies venue is likely to put many real members off going there I know I would avoid it like the plague, ultimately surely what we would want is a social club that feels like our home and that is full of St Kilda members. Where you can have a meal or a drink or a coffee and be immersed in the history of the club and discuss with the person sitting next to you where you were when Plugger kicked his ton against Footscray or Phil Carmen headbutted Umpire Carbury or when Winmar hit Lockett just before the siren for the game winning goal against Carlton. We should be aiming to be a footy club not a casino.

All this stuff of if we don't do it someone else will is complete rubbish the Pokies are a scourge on our community they tarnish the clubs brand and they keep Saints supporters away from the club. Open a Cafe instead with a quality Barista and the players latte sipping ways between sessions will more than make up for the lost Pokies Revenue.

What is this crap about kids being near pokies that makes it so bad. They aren't in the same room for a start. Is the noise bad for kids. I doubt it. And how does pokies tarnish the brand? When was the last article that cause the brand to tarnish over having pokies. And there is no way there is even the slightest chance of them thinking about having meals unless there are pokies. I doubt we will have them anyway to be honest but pokies at least gives that option a chance. And talk about emotive words like saying its a casino. What crap. I go to 2 local pubs and the local RSL and not once has anyone suggested it is anything like a casino but then again if it was there are many kids at the casino so im unsure where you are going with this. As for pokies keeping people away from the club well that's clearly a joke because there isn't anything at the club apart from pokies. Again emotive rubbish. The fact and this is fact unlike your fiction, is if we don't have them then someone close will. Fact. If we have them at least we are responsible for addicted gamblers. The other option is to get rid of the pokies and get rid of the problem and move it elsewhere were we have no control. We feel better but nothing is achieved for the people with the problem. Yep that's how to deal with the issue. Not.

[plugger66]

I can't believe what I'm reading but obviously several libertarians and a few spokespeople from the Gaming Council on here. Who would have figured.

The poker-machine industry facilitated by the state is unethical because it causes harm, usually to those who can least afford it.

People say, it's about having self-control. The assumption is that everyone is equal and that everyone has the same level of control. Heavy users and addicts lose control. Government perpetrates and benefits from the harm and gambling addiction; while poker machine manufacturers and gaming venues profit directly from the harm and misery they cause. Gambling addiction also has wider societal implications and community costs.

Also, the machines are rigged and the outcomes over time are pre determined.

Poker machines and gaming venues might be legal but that doesn't mean that they are ethical.

Defending the indefensible.

Moral crusading.

F*ck

me

drunk.

Talking of drunk, should the club serve alcohol then. I would suggest I also cant believe what im reading. Are there anti gambling people on here? Are there moral crusaders who want to shift the problem and not deal with it.?

[stjay]

So how much do we make from Pokies if the social club revenue is $2 Million how much profit are we making on that revenue. Ultimately this is a side buisness it adds nothing to the club apart from the cash it contributes to the bottom line, and arguably tarnishes the brand. I would have to agree with the caller that having a Pokies venue at the new community hub of football in the South East is counter productive. You would want Moorabin to be a place familys gather to use the park and watch local footy of a variety of levels, see the Saints train and generally be a hub for the positive and healthy aspects of sport.

If Pokies are that important to our bottom line and we have to retain them for the revenue then I hope we could consider locating them somewhere else or leasing the licences to another operator or something like that. Making our social club a Pokies venue is likely to put many real members off going there I know I would avoid it like the plague, ultimately surely what we would want is a social club that feels like our home and that is full of St Kilda members. Where you can have a meal or a drink or a coffee and be immersed in the history of the club and discuss with the person sitting next to you where you were when Plugger kicked his ton against Footscray or Phil Carmen headbutted Umpire Carbury or when Winmar hit Lockett just before the siren for the game winning goal against Carlton. We should be aiming to be a footy club not a casino.

All this stuff of if we don't do it someone else will is complete rubbish the Pokies are a scourge on our community they tarnish the clubs brand and they keep Saints supporters away from the club. Open a Cafe instead with a quality Barista and the players latte sipping ways between sessions will more than make up for the lost Pokies Revenue.

You have to understand the club, all things held constant, based on the 2014 financial reports as a stand alone business is basically insolvent. Now (huge caveats), we know there is more membership, more sponsorship money and on average bigger crowds which change that equation all for the positive. How much at the end of the day? Not sure but it all helps. You could even argue creditors have a put option to the AFL and that we are not the only club in this position - all agreed. But, when it comes to revenues & net profit (less licensing & other costs) the pokies must be bringing in around the $1.5m mark. You can't replace that money with lattes and sandwiches at the new Social Club cafe - anyone who's worked in that industry will tell you the amount of business you would need to do & the size of the venue to accommodate it - it is just not realistic. However there is a definite opportunity to create that type of additional reveanue stream and I am sure the club is looking at it.

As for the not wanting to take your family down there with the pokies being there. Perhaps wait until the planning is done to see how the venue is laid out before making that call. I have some sympathy for your point of view. I don't particularly want the club to have them either because I don't want my club to be involved in exacerbating a problem for those that can't control themselves and that destroys families. We need to remember though that by a very, very large measure the responsibility for that problem is with the individual - that is the root cause. The vast majority of people who play pokies do so responsibly and have a great time so let's be practical about it - the horse has bolted. There's potentially a manageable solution, a middle ground where both can exist at the club without ruining the experience at the new facilities. The club is just not in a position to turn its back on the cash the pokies brings in.

[Pleasing]

You're right Casino's aren't as depressing as Pokie venues. But each to their own. Clearly I am the only one that actively avoids going to Pubs RSL's or any other venue that has Pokies. No doubt you are right and I should go back to my hippie commune plant some quinoa and get over myself.

I just think we are stuck thinking this is the only model that works for Footy Clubs, perhaps we need the money and there is no other option but I would hope we could at least look at alternatives.

[st.byron]

You're right Casino's aren't as depressing as Pokie venues. But each to their own. Clearly I am the only one that actively avoids going to Pubs RSL's or any other venue that has Pokies. No doubt you are right and I should go back to my hippie commune plant some quinoa and get over myself.

I just think we are stuck thinking this is the only model that works for Footy Clubs, perhaps we need the money and there is no other option but I would hope we could at least look at alternatives.

I live near a hippie plant commune with plenty of quinoa sacred geometry crystal essence action. And I go to a pub for an occasional meal that has a room full of pokies, right in the middle of hippie plant commune-ville.
I agree that they're not great and I have no desire to play 'em. But if you're going to not have pokies, then we should also not have beer. Alcohol addiction related issues are ubiquitous and just as, if not more damaging. I reckon it's a commercial reality that we need the revenue.

[plugger66]

You're right Casino's aren't as depressing as Pokie venues. But each to their own. Clearly I am the only one that actively avoids going to Pubs RSL's or any other venue that has Pokies. No doubt you are right and I should go back to my hippie commune plant some quinoa and get over myself.

I just think we are stuck thinking this is the only model that works for Footy Clubs, perhaps we need the money and there is no other option but I would hope we could at least look at alternatives.

No idea about your hippy ways. You obviously hate pokies but you don't want to address the real problem, you just don't want it to be our problem. Moving them doesn't help the addicts but it may makes a few feel better. It wont make me feel better. It will make me feel worse when we lose money for the good of not one addicted gambler.

[SaintPav]

Ah, the ol slippery slope fallacy. I knew it was only a matter of when, not if.

We're talking about gambling and I don't believe I need to defend the indefensible, even though you want to take it off topic.

As long as state sanctioned gaming venues are legal, the Saints are perfectly entitled to use pokies to rip their supporters off.

I'll stick with the club but I am not proud of it and it doesn't mean I have to like it.

I believe it's a sign of intelligence to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and retain the ability to function.

Like Pleasing said, maybe we could look at other types of businesses to generate revenue.

[SaintPav]

You're right Casino's aren't as depressing as Pokie venues. But each to their own. Clearly I am the only one that actively avoids going to Pubs RSL's or any other venue that has Pokies. No doubt you are right and I should go back to my hippie commune plant some quinoa and get over myself.

I just think we are stuck thinking this is the only model that works for Footy Clubs, perhaps we need the money and there is no other option but I would hope we could at least look at alternatives.

No idea about your hippy ways. You obviously hate pokies but you don't want to address the real problem, you just don't want it to be our problem. Moving them doesn't help the addicts but it may makes a few feel better. It wont make me feel better. It will make me feel worse when we lose money for the good of not one addicted gambler.

You are making a bad argument and that is a poor reason not to do the right thing.

It's not even a reason; it's just a cop out.

[plugger66]

Ah, the ol slippery slope fallacy. I knew it was only a matter of when, not if.

We're talking about gambling and I don't believe I need to defend the indefensible, even though you want to take it off topic.

As long as state sanctioned gaming venues are legal, the Saints are perfectly entitled to use pokies to rip their supporters off.

I'll stick with the club but I am not proud of it I don't have to like it.

I believe it's a sign of intelligence to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and retain the ability to function.

Like Pleasing said, maybe we could look at other types of businesses to generate revenue.

I don't want to take it off topic at all. Its others who do by shifting the problem. Im happy to keep the pokies exactly where they are. And I don't know why they are ripping supporters off. I would suggest most play because they want to and secondly most probably aren't our supporters. Im still wondering about your opinion of serving grog at the pokies venue or any other venue run by our club?

[SaintPav]

Ah, the ol slippery slope fallacy. I knew it was only a matter of when, not if.

We're talking about gambling and I don't believe I need to defend the indefensible, even though you want to take it off topic.

As long as state sanctioned gaming venues are legal, the Saints are perfectly entitled to use pokies to rip their supporters off.

I'll stick with the club but I am not proud of it I don't have to like it.

I believe it's a sign of intelligence to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and retain the ability to function.

Like Pleasing said, maybe we could look at other types of businesses to generate revenue.

I don't want to take it off topic at all. Its others who do by shifting the problem. Im happy to keep the pokies exactly where they are. And I don't know why they are ripping supporters off. I would suggest most play because they want to and secondly most probably aren't our supporters. Im still wondering about your opinion of serving grog at the pokies venue or any other venue run by our club?

Like gambling, drinking is legal but for a variety of reasons, it is not that black and white so stop being a smart arse.

[asiu]

You have to understand the club, all things held constant, based on the 2014 financial reports as a stand alone business is basically insolvent. Now (huge caveats), we know there is more membership, more sponsorship money and on average bigger crowds which change that equation all for the positive. How much at the end of the day? Not sure but it all helps. You could even argue creditors have a put option to the AFL and that we are not the only club in this position - all agreed. But, when it comes to revenues & net profit (less licensing & other costs) the pokies must be bringing in around the $1.5m mark. You can't replace that money with lattes and sandwiches at the new Social Club cafe - anyone who's worked in that industry will tell you the amount of business you would need to do & the size of the venue to accommodate it - it is just not realistic. However there is a definite opportunity to create that type of additional reveanue stream and I am sure the club is looking at it.


As for the not wanting to take your family down there with the pokies being there. Perhaps wait until the planning is done to see how the venue is laid out before making that call. I have some sympathy for your point of view. I don't particularly want the club to have them either because I don't want my club to be involved in exacerbating a problem for those that can't control themselves and that destroys families. We need to remember though that by a very, very large measure the responsibility for that problem is with the individual - that is the root cause. The vast majority of people who play pokies do so responsibly and have a great time so let's be practical about it - the horse has bolted. There's potentially a manageable solution, a middle ground where both can exist at the club without ruining the experience at the new facilities. The club is just not in a position to turn its back on the cash the pokies brings in.

that makes sense to my world view

[plugger66]

Ah, the ol slippery slope fallacy. I knew it was only a matter of when, not if.

We're talking about gambling and I don't believe I need to defend the indefensible, even though you want to take it off topic.

As long as state sanctioned gaming venues are legal, the Saints are perfectly entitled to use pokies to rip their supporters off.

I'll stick with the club but I am not proud of it I don't have to like it.

I believe it's a sign of intelligence to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and retain the ability to function.

Like Pleasing said, maybe we could look at other types of businesses to generate revenue.

I don't want to take it off topic at all. Its others who do by shifting the problem. Im happy to keep the pokies exactly where they are. And I don't know why they are ripping supporters off. I would suggest most play because they want to and secondly most probably aren't our supporters. Im still wondering about your opinion of serving grog at the pokies venue or any other venue run by our club?

Like gambling, drinking is legal but for a variety of reasons, it is not that black and white so stop being a smart arse.

I am not being a smart arse at all. You seem dead set against pokies and that is your right so I was just wondering about your opinion of grog also. I love a drink and I love to gamble but I don't play pokies because they are the most boring thing I could imagine but if I did play pokies and lost a heap of money it will only effect my family but if I drink to much and are stupid enough to drive then I could effect people I have never met before. Again I have no problem with the club selling grog though but like people betting on pokies I hope the club are doing both responsibly. The thing is the club can actually control the problem gamblers but cant control the problem drinkers getting in their car and driving home.

[st.byron]

You are making a bad argument and that is a poor reason not to do the right thing.

It's not even a reason; it's just a cop out.

The 'right thing' is a subjective idea. 15 people a day die from alcohol related diseases in Australia. Should people not be allowed to drink because of the ones who die and get sick from it? Alcohol related sponsorship is everywhere in Australian sport yet it's a leading cause of death and disease. As I see it, gambling revenue is in the same boat. The same people who may need to be 'protected' from their pokie addiction might also need protection from their alcohol addiction or the fags they smoke, both of which might kill them or shorten their lives. Stopping people gambling, drinking or smoking on moral grounds is impossible. People are going to drink, smoke and gamble whether there are pokies at Moorabbin or not.

[howlinwolf]

You can't have your club and eat it too.

You can if you're a Richmond supporter

[Dr Spaceman]

You can't have your club and eat it too.

You can if you're a Richmond supporter

Not only that, after you've eaten it you can crap it out again

[Pleasing]

You're right Casino's aren't as depressing as Pokie venues. But each to their own. Clearly I am the only one that actively avoids going to Pubs RSL's or any other venue that has Pokies. No doubt you are right and I should go back to my hippie commune plant some quinoa and get over myself.

I just think we are stuck thinking this is the only model that works for Footy Clubs, perhaps we need the money and there is no other option but I would hope we could at least look at alternatives.

No idea about your hippy ways. You obviously hate pokies but you don't want to address the real problem, you just don't want it to be our problem. Moving them doesn't help the addicts but it may makes a few feel better. It wont make me feel better. It will make me feel worse when we lose money for the good of not one addicted gambler.

The real problem is this mindset, nothing will change as long as we make excuses for continuing to operate as we have before. Yes I want the club I am a member of and which represents my community to lead the way. That would be a start they are after all a member owned not for profit community organisation so yes I do expect more from them on issues of social responsibility than other operators.

The most potent argument the Pro Pokies campaigners used to attack and ultimately defeat the anti pokie legislation proposed by Andrew Wilkie was that Sporting Clubs and RSL's needed the money and were using that money to do good work in the community. Effectively clubs like ours are giving governments an excuse to do nothing about Pokie Laws.

[stjay]

You're right Casino's aren't as depressing as Pokie venues. But each to their own. Clearly I am the only one that actively avoids going to Pubs RSL's or any other venue that has Pokies. No doubt you are right and I should go back to my hippie commune plant some quinoa and get over myself.

I just think we are stuck thinking this is the only model that works for Footy Clubs, perhaps we need the money and there is no other option but I would hope we could at least look at alternatives.

No idea about your hippy ways. You obviously hate pokies but you don't want to address the real problem, you just don't want it to be our problem. Moving them doesn't help the addicts but it may makes a few feel better. It wont make me feel better. It will make me feel worse when we lose money for the good of not one addicted gambler.

The real problem is this mindset, nothing will change as long as we make excuses for continuing to operate as we have before. Yes I want the club I am a member of and which represents my community to lead the way. That would be a start they are after all a member owned not for profit community organisation so yes I do expect more from them on issues of social responsibility than other operators.

The most potent argument the Pro Pokies campaigners used to attack and ultimately defeat the anti pokie legislation proposed by Andrew Wilkie was that Sporting Clubs and RSL's needed the money and were using that money to do good work in the community. Effectively clubs like ours are giving governments an excuse to do nothing about Pokie Laws.

Looking to & using governments to fix problems is always a bad idea and smacks of avoidance of individual responsibility. We have already created an authoritarian monster. You vote with your feet and your dollars.

[plugger66]

You're right Casino's aren't as depressing as Pokie venues. But each to their own. Clearly I am the only one that actively avoids going to Pubs RSL's or any other venue that has Pokies. No doubt you are right and I should go back to my hippie commune plant some quinoa and get over myself.

I just think we are stuck thinking this is the only model that works for Footy Clubs, perhaps we need the money and there is no other option but I would hope we could at least look at alternatives.

No idea about your hippy ways. You obviously hate pokies but you don't want to address the real problem, you just don't want it to be our problem. Moving them doesn't help the addicts but it may makes a few feel better. It wont make me feel better. It will make me feel worse when we lose money for the good of not one addicted gambler.

The real problem is this mindset, nothing will change as long as we make excuses for continuing to operate as we have before. Yes I want the club I am a member of and which represents my community to lead the way. That would be a start they are after all a member owned not for profit community organisation so yes I do expect more from them on issues of social responsibility than other operators.

The most potent argument the Pro Pokies campaigners used to attack and ultimately defeat the anti pokie legislation proposed by Andrew Wilkie was that Sporting Clubs and RSL's needed the money and were using that money to do good work in the community. Effectively clubs like ours are giving governments an excuse to do nothing about Pokie Laws.

I would suggest you are again avoiding the real problem. We have about 30K pokies in this state whether we have them or get rid of them. They will be taken over by some club close to where we are. the same people lose the same money but this time we lose the responsibility. It doesn't help the local community but makes people like you feel better even though the same addicts lose the same money. We will never get rid of pokies and I have actually never heard a good reason why they should. Yep there are addicts but there are also alcoholics and people who smoke to much. Cant see them getting rid of grog or smokes and I would suggest they both do a hell of a lot more harm than pokies.

[SaintPav]

You are making a bad argument and that is a poor reason not to do the right thing.

It's not even a reason; it's just a cop out.

The 'right thing' is a subjective idea. 15 people a day die from alcohol related diseases in Australia. Should people not be allowed to drink because of the ones who die and get sick from it? Alcohol related sponsorship is everywhere in Australian sport yet it's a leading cause of death and disease. As I see it, gambling revenue is in the same boat. The same people who may need to be 'protected' from their pokie addiction might also need protection from their alcohol addiction or the fags they smoke, both of which might kill them or shorten their lives. Stopping people gambling, drinking or smoking on moral grounds is impossible. People are going to drink, smoke and gamble whether there are pokies at Moorabbin or not.

Yeah, yeah, gambling is a human right.

I don't mean 'right' as in an everyday virtuous sense but in the context of weather gambling is an ethical business.

Justifying it because it would happen anyway and talking about smoking etc is a poor excuse and is a morally bankrupt proposition.

The truth is, revenue and profit is a greater priority than people's well being and that is the system and framework we live in.

The rest is bullsh.t

[Pleasing]

I am not sure I am avoiding the real problem, on the other hand you seem to be saying there is no problem at all. Perhaps we are talking about different problems. There seems to be a fatalism in the pro pokies argument - whatever we do nothing will change so why bother. You may be right, chances are we will keep the pokies and that this debate will never leave the confines of this thread.

On the other hand if it does become an issue with the council I hope the club are not as bloody minded as they were last time about the Pokies. Archies Pokies or nothing approach destroyed the last proposal to redevelop Moorabin. I trust we have more creative heads in charge now who realise Football is our core business not gambling.

[plugger66]

You are making a bad argument and that is a poor reason not to do the right thing.

It's not even a reason; it's just a cop out.

The 'right thing' is a subjective idea. 15 people a day die from alcohol related diseases in Australia. Should people not be allowed to drink because of the ones who die and get sick from it? Alcohol related sponsorship is everywhere in Australian sport yet it's a leading cause of death and disease. As I see it, gambling revenue is in the same boat. The same people who may need to be 'protected' from their pokie addiction might also need protection from their alcohol addiction or the fags they smoke, both of which might kill them or shorten their lives. Stopping people gambling, drinking or smoking on moral grounds is impossible. People are going to drink, smoke and gamble whether there are pokies at Moorabbin or not.

Yeah, yeah, gambling is a human right.

I don't mean 'right' as in an everyday virtuous sense but in the context of weather gambling is an ethical business.

Justifying it because it would happen anyway and talking about smoking etc is a poor excuse and is a morally bankrupt proposition.

The truth is, revenue and profit is a greater priority than people's well being and that is the system and framework we live in.

The rest is bullsh.t

But smoking and drinking are important because you are using things like addiction and losing money as reasons we shouldn't have pokies but it either doesn't apply to those other things or you don't care. Of course we have pokies to make money. Anyway saying otherwise is silly or talking crap but I don't think anyone has said anything else anyway. I still fail to see anyone come up with good reasons we should get rid of pokies but continue to serve alcohol. And again no one seems to care that the pokies just get sent to another local establishment for the same people to lose their money. But at least we feel better. Who really cares about the addicts?