Tom Ledger??

[plugger66]

A few posters on here seem to know??

Apparently
He refuses to improve areas and is a selfish prick

Or

they think they know, and really have no idea and are just trying to justify his lack of selection opportunity??

I wonder which is true

I heard the coach hated him. Its funny that someone can that opinion but others cant have their opinion.

[BigMart]

Hello stalker

[skeptic]

So Skeptic,
Let's pretend you are the Senior Coach and when it comes to picking this week's side Ledger's name is thrown up.
You ask the question of the Sandringham coach
'Has he improved in the area(s) we asked/told him to work on'?
Sandringahma coach replies 'No, he refuses to work on it'.

Do you pick him to p[lay?????

Before everybody gets up in arms over this, it is just a hypothetical from me to Skeptic because I've gotten the impression from his posts that he wants Ledger picked immaterial of any reason.
(I may have misunderstood Skeptic's posts)

Thanks for the response Mr Magic,
I don't believe he should be picked immaterial of reason but rather that his form warrants it and that he could get better for the experience even in the areas that are lacking (whatever the main one is).

Maybe the conversation could go something like this

You ask the question of the Sandringham coach
'Has he improved in the area(s) we asked/told him to work on'?

TL remains an extremely solid contributor and was again one of our better players as he has been all season. He still has not improved greatly in the area you've highlighted however maybe rewarding the hard work he has done and his consistent performance may assist him to develop that area further.

This is hard when we don't know what the problem is but my feeling is that it has to be attitudinal rather than performance based.

[Mr Magic]

So Skeptic,
Let's pretend you are the Senior Coach and when it comes to picking this week's side Ledger's name is thrown up.
You ask the question of the Sandringham coach
'Has he improved in the area(s) we asked/told him to work on'?
Sandringahma coach replies 'No, he refuses to work on it'.

Do you pick him to p[lay?????

Before everybody gets up in arms over this, it is just a hypothetical from me to Skeptic because I've gotten the impression from his posts that he wants Ledger picked immaterial of any reason.
(I may have misunderstood Skeptic's posts)

Thanks for the response Mr Magic,
I don't believe he should be picked immaterial of reason but rather that his form warrants it and that he could get better for the experience even in the areas that are lacking (whatever the main one is).

Maybe the conversation could go something like this

You ask the question of the Sandringham coach
'Has he improved in the area(s) we asked/told him to work on'?

TL remains an extremely solid contributor and was again one of our better players as he has been all season. He still has not improved greatly in the area you've highlighted however maybe rewarding the hard work he has done and his consistent performance may assist him to develop that area further.

This is hard when we don't know what the problem is but my feeling is that it has to be attitudinal rather than performance based.

I agree, it seemingly must be attitudinal.
But given none of us know the real reason and we are all just speculating, I prefer to err on the side of the coaches/selectors.
I just don't believe they would deliberately not pick a player for no valid reason.
I don't believe it is fair and/or reasonable to 'pot the Club' just because we are ignorant of the real facts and therefore they (selectors) are wrong.

[8856brother]

He may get a game this week regardless. Sounds like we will be lucky to have 22 fit listed players.

[WellardSaint]

He may get a game this week regardless. Sounds like we will be lucky to have 22 fit listed players.

This must be his best chance. Hope he grasps with both hands and proves his doubters wrong.

[skeptic]

I agree, it seemingly must be attitudinal.
But given none of us know the real reason and we are all just speculating, I prefer to err on the side of the coaches/selectors.
I just don't believe they would deliberately not pick a player for no valid reason.
I don't believe it is fair and/or reasonable to 'pot the Club' just because we are ignorant of the real facts and therefore they (selectors) are wrong.

I'm not saying there's no valid reason

If it's attitudinal, and again this is purely speculative, then considering his form is worthy of it, I don't think they're managing it right. I don't really think I'm potting the club either, just don't agree about this is all.

Here's a quote from Demons CEO Peter Jackson regarding Melbourne

I don't think we've developed our players really well... I get an instinct (from reading internal reports) we've relied on draft picks, we've had all these first round draft picks and somehow that was going to get us through and turn us into a great footy club just because we've had them.

found here http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/m ... 6687787633

I have watched for the last few seasons whilst many around pot the clubs awful recruiting as our major problem. During the Lyon years, there has developed this IMO ridiculous mentality that in a few bad years, we've gotten it wrong every single time despite picking players that more or less went where they were predicted to go. Players that played ok but got little in the way of opportunity, showed potential in the VFL and backed up.

Whilst other clubs... EVEN the ones pushing for premierships opted to play the promising kids that earnt shots based on their form, we persisted with a large number mediocre players... that were consistently mediocre and didn't help us win games in the now (at the time) or have much prospect for future development.

I watched as a number of our most promising prospects stalled and all I've heard is stupid excuses... we were playing for now (the biggest con of all) and they're just not good enough and don't try them.

I worry that we are indeed heading down that path the Peter Jackson speaks of

On form in the VFL, TL has done all you can reasonably expect of a player in his position. The fact that he can't get a game in a team that needs inside midfielders or that the coaches have failed over the course of an entire season where we won 3 games to solve the issue is a really messed up state of affairs

[plugger66]

I agree, it seemingly must be attitudinal.
But given none of us know the real reason and we are all just speculating, I prefer to err on the side of the coaches/selectors.
I just don't believe they would deliberately not pick a player for no valid reason.
I don't believe it is fair and/or reasonable to 'pot the Club' just because we are ignorant of the real facts and therefore they (selectors) are wrong.

I'm not saying there's no valid reason

If it's attitudinal, and again this is purely speculative, then considering his form is worthy of it, I don't think they're managing it right. I don't really think I'm potting the club either, just don't agree about this is all.

Here's a quote from Demons CEO Peter Jackson regarding Melbourne

I don't think we've developed our players really well... I get an instinct (from reading internal reports) we've relied on draft picks, we've had all these first round draft picks and somehow that was going to get us through and turn us into a great footy club just because we've had them.

found here http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/m ... 6687787633

I have watched for the last few seasons whilst many around pot the clubs awful recruiting as our major problem. During the Lyon years, there has developed this IMO ridiculous mentality that in a few bad years, we've gotten it wrong every single time despite picking players that more or less went where they were predicted to go. Players that played ok but got little in the way of opportunity, showed potential in the VFL and backed up.

Whilst other clubs... EVEN the ones pushing for premierships opted to play the promising kids that earnt shots based on their form, we persisted with a large number mediocre players... that were consistently mediocre and didn't help us win games in the now (at the time) or have much prospect for future development.

I watched as a number of our most promising prospects stalled and all I've heard is stupid excuses... we were playing for now (the biggest con of all) and they're just not good enough and don't try them.

I worry that we are indeed heading down that path the Peter Jackson speaks of

On form in the VFL, TL has done all you can reasonably expect of a player in his position. The fact that he can't get a game in a team that needs inside midfielders or that the coaches have failed over the course of an entire season where we won 3 games to solve the issue is a really messed up state of affairs

So if you are potting RL you must be really pissed with SW. How did you rate GT as a coach because it seems to you dont rate the last 2.

And it wasnt a cont to say we were playing for now. We have one flag to show for 140 years of footy. RL had every right to try and win it his way. He failed so now we are pissed off. It was worth the risk 100%. I still want to know all these great players who werent getting a game under RL.

[stinger]

He may get a game this week regardless. Sounds like we will be lucky to have 22 fit listed players.

outs will include the three injured players......but the ins will probably be out of newnes, schneider, blake and gwilt.....i would like to see ross back in there too...can't see ledger getting a game....hope i'm wrong....

[Mr Magic]

Skeptic,
I wholeheartedly agree that under Lyon there was a dearth of opportunity for younger players to get a go - he ran a regime of using only those he was comfortable/sure of (read role players like Eddy and McQualter).

BUT
Watters has shown a willingness to try out as many youngsters as possible - diametrically opposite to the system Lyon was employing.
And yet Ledger still hasn't had a game this year despite his VFL statistics seemingly being better than other youngsters who have consistently been selected in his place.

Therefore there has to be a reason as to why this has occurred?
I don't subscribe to the theory that the coach is not playing him because of anything other than Ledger is not fulfilling some requirement(s).

[westcoast]

Watters did not draft Ledger. He has shown bias to the ones he drafted, thats a clear fact. Theres no way Saunders Murdoch etc showed better form than him in the VFL. From talking to Sandringham staff there's no attitude problem at all and he's been terrific in the way he's come to VFL. He just deserves a shot

[CURLY]

Watters did not draft Ledger. He has shown bias to the ones he drafted, thats a clear fact. Theres no way Saunders Murdoch etc showed better form than him in the VFL. From talking to Sandringham staff there's no attitude problem at all and he's been terrific in the way he's come to VFL. He just deserves a shot

Sounds legit a coach putting his credentials on the line because he didnt draft a player even though he is better than the new group apprently.

[HitTheBoundary]

I just watched a replay of the weekends game, paying close attention to Ledger.
He gets the ball a lot, but doesn't seem too damaging.

I thought both Shenton and Minchington were more impressive with their impact on the game and decision making.

[PADDLEPOP1001]

Why did we keep him on the list this year if "supposedly" his attitude is so bad?Contract ?No we cut Winmat with a contract ,so just seems bizarre!Hope. He gets a game soon!

[8856brother]

I just watched a replay of the weekends game, paying close attention to Ledger.
He gets the ball a lot, but doesn't seem too damaging.

I thought both Shenton and Minchington were more impressive with their impact on the game and decision making.

Bad game to judge anyone by IMO. Good or bad. Conditions were atrocious, only suitable for sailing and kite flying. No good for footy or comb overs.

[skeptic]

Skeptic,
I wholeheartedly agree that under Lyon there was a dearth of opportunity for younger players to get a go - he ran a regime of using only those he was comfortable/sure of (read role players like Eddy and McQualter).

BUT
Watters has shown a willingness to try out as many youngsters as possible - diametrically opposite to the system Lyon was employing.
And yet Ledger still hasn't had a game this year despite his VFL statistics seemingly being better than other youngsters who have consistently been selected in his place.

Therefore there has to be a reason as to why this has occurred?
I don't subscribe to the theory that the coach is not playing him because of anything other than Ledger is not fulfilling some requirement(s).

This is an odd debate because from what I gather we actually agree on the main key areas.

The sticking point is that you're of the opinion that the coaching team is correctly managing a player that is not doing what is required of him whereas I'm critical of the coaching team for being unable/failing to address a particular area of a player's game (not form related) for over 10 rounds

[lefty]

This guy has to get a game this week, surely, with all the injuries we have.

[lefty]

And upgrade Shenton already and put him in for his first game, we've got far too many injuries anyway.

If TDL plays, I wont be happy...

[#gosaintas]

Not only does Watters have to select and play him this week but Plugger also has to pick him in his "ins and outs" tomorrow morning. It is ENUF!

[stinger]

This guy has to get a game this week, surely, with all the injuries we have.

well...we certainly have experience of a coach not giving young players a fair go....lyon......who-s to say it's not still happening...with some players........i have had many many years of invovement with junior football codes having two sons born some ten years apart....in my experience all coaches play favorites...some more blatantly than others.......i have a friend who's boy will play at the highest level......one of the best in the state at the moment playing against boys up to a year older...his coach also has his own son in the same team....they both play the same position......guess who spends more time on the woodwork.......?

[Mr Magic]

Skeptic,
I wholeheartedly agree that under Lyon there was a dearth of opportunity for younger players to get a go - he ran a regime of using only those he was comfortable/sure of (read role players like Eddy and McQualter).

BUT
Watters has shown a willingness to try out as many youngsters as possible - diametrically opposite to the system Lyon was employing.
And yet Ledger still hasn't had a game this year despite his VFL statistics seemingly being better than other youngsters who have consistently been selected in his place.

Therefore there has to be a reason as to why this has occurred?
I don't subscribe to the theory that the coach is not playing him because of anything other than Ledger is not fulfilling some requirement(s).

This is an odd debate because from what I gather we actually agree on the main key areas.

The sticking point is that you're of the opinion that the coaching team is correctly managing a player that is not doing what is required of him whereas I'm critical of the coaching team for being unable/failing to address a particular area of a player's game (not form related) for over 10 rounds

Not exactly.

I'm not buying that he's not getting a game because
Watters doesn't like him
Watters didn't draft him
There's no valid reason.

All I'm saying is that I believe the coaches/selectors must have a valid reason as to why they've not picked him so far this year.
I don't happen to know what that reason is, but I'm sure it exists.

I'm responding to your posts because you happen to be, IMHO, a reasonable and reasoned debater on this subject and I'd rather debate it with you than the other posters who seem to feel/think that they 'know' he's not getting a game because
Watters doesn't like him
Watters et al are idiots
He wasn't drafted by Watters.

I look for logical reasons and not 'emotional claptrap' or ego driven 'look at me' posts.
And to me it is totally illogical that a coach would keep a player on the list that he was not going to play for any reason other than a fitness/form/attitude one (or a team balance issue).

It doesn't make any sense

[stinger]

It doesn't make any sense

your last comment has validity........no...it doesn't make sense...hence why it is being discussed......i don't know the reason...and to me not playing him therefore doesn't make any sense at all......

...but don't hold your breath hoping to be enlightened by the club ..because that ain't about to happen either...

[plugger66]

It doesn't make any sense

your last comment has validity........no...it doesn't make sense...hence why it is being discussed......i don't know the reason...and to me not playing him therefore doesn't make any sense at all......

...but don't hold your breath hoping to be enlightened by the club ..because that ain't about to happen either...

What does that last line mean? Do you want them to come out and explain to us why he isnt being played? If we did that then I would give up. What a joke that would be.

[spot on]

If he doesn't get a game this week he may as well not bother turning up the rest of the year. Clearly his busting to get a gig , as he has all year. I don't believe he will be will be to strong of a player but at the very least should be giving an opportunity to prove ppl wrong

[8856brother]

This guy has to get a game this week, surely, with all the injuries we have.

Congratulations for the upcoming weekend Lefty.