The Seb Ross discussions

[Vortex]

Can he get better?

[CQ SAINT]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

Your not interested in facts BM. Otherwise you'd agree that Ross won most of his votes because of his athleticism and that ability that gave him the chance to be very average with the ball 26.5 times every week. Just like when he won the Ian Stewart award against Richmond in 2016.

To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.

"To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.'

What a f****** joke.

In one post you have managed to destroy any football credibility you may have had.

Ok Saynta. He must be right up there with the likes of Ross Smith, Ian Stewart, Robert Harvey etc.... if Ross turned up to training during these guys era's, he'd be sent out to the car park.

[Joffa Burns]

No doubt Sebs level was lower in 2020 compared to 2016-2019.
He was not playing as well and his role was different

Playing in the midfield, there is only so much ball to go around.

Steele is now the ‘go to man’
Zac Jones has come in as a break away clearance player (aka Jack Steven)
And Seb is a defensive mid

Basically Steele and Seb swapped roles

Steel is a better player than Seb now, he has gone to the next level and is A Grade
Zac is not as good as Seb but has a point of difference with his speed and Power
Crouch (who is very similar to Ross) in that he accumulates and can be average by foot, but is a better clearance player.
Ross will be in the midfield rotations without a doubt!

Clearance inside mids (in pecking order)
Steele, Crouch, Hannebery, Ross
Breakaway inside mids
Jones, Gresham, Clarke, Higgins
Run with
Ross, Steele (only if absolutely necessary!)
Outside Mids
Hill, Billings, Hannebery, Jones, Clark
Depth
Dunstan, Bytel, Byrnes

We have a deep midfield but clearly Ross is an important part of it.

Good analysis Big Mart, there is no doubt Seb is a clearly underrated player. Seb is a good AFL B grade player and I think is marked harshly as he does not have that one elite trait.

Jones has speed and grunt, Gresham turn of foot and elusiveness, Clark is composed, Steele is a bull & a tackling machine where Seb is competent at every aspect of the game.

It still wouldn’t surprise me to see Seb in the leadership group or even vice captain again.

The comparison to Dunstan is laughable IMO.
Dunstan is a D grade AFL mid with average endurance and foot skills. I like him but he’s grades below Seb.

[saynta]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

Your not interested in facts BM. Otherwise you'd agree that Ross won most of his votes because of his athleticism and that ability that gave him the chance to be very average with the ball 26.5 times every week. Just like when he won the Ian Stewart award against Richmond in 2016.

To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.

"To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.'

What a f****** joke.

In one post you have managed to destroy any football credibility you may have had.

Ok Saynta. He must be right up there with the likes of Ross Smith, Ian Stewart, Robert Harvey etc.... if Ross turned up to training during these guys era's, he'd be sent out to the car park.

More f****** rubbish. No one has said that Seb should have won a brownlow FFS. Geez.

You are wrong and now flogging a very dead horse with the rubbish you are posting.

You can have your views but you ain't going to change mine or others too it would seem. So give it a f****** rest.

[B.M]

I think Sebs best footballing traits are

Hands and vision in close (he did two handballs to create goals last season that had to be seen to be believed)

He is very clean off the deck (as you should be as an AFL mid)

His endurance and durability is excellent

And he can find a lot of the ball (when allowed to play that role)

His weaknesses are
His penetration with kicking and he can miss targets by foot

Sometimes he blazes away

To me
He is a B+ grader, at his best he can reach A Grade levels in his good games but generally is a sold B Grader. Last season at times was playing at a C Grade level due to poor form.

Steele is now A Grade IMO (was B+ when he was Run with)
Zac Jones is a B Grader
Brad Crouch is a B+ Just lacks a bit of polish to be A Grade
Gresham is a C Grade mid (potential to get better) but a B Grade forward
Clarke is C Grade mid (with potential to get a lot better) but a B grade HB
Hannebery can be A Grade but his body limits him
Billing’s best is A Grade but fails to deliver high levels consistently and would sit as quality B Grader - underrated
Hill is similar to Billings as he can produce A Grade quality football (his seasons at Freo were A Grade). But he only produced at a C Grade level last season.
Dunstan is a D+ he just doesn’t win enough footy as an inside mid or use it well enough. He does have quarters or halves where he
has an impact. But his lack of run and lack of endurance is an issue.

[CQ SAINT]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

Your not interested in facts BM. Otherwise you'd agree that Ross won most of his votes because of his athleticism and that ability that gave him the chance to be very average with the ball 26.5 times every week. Just like when he won the Ian Stewart award against Richmond in 2016.

To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.

"To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.'

What a f****** joke.

In one post you have managed to destroy any football credibility you may have had.

Ok Saynta. He must be right up there with the likes of Ross Smith, Ian Stewart, Robert Harvey etc.... if Ross turned up to training during these guys era's, he'd be sent out to the car park.

More f****** rubbish. No one has said that Seb should have won a brownlow FFS. Geez.

You are wrong and now flogging a very dead horse with the rubbish you are posting.

You can have your views but you ain't going to change mine or others too it would seem. So give it a f****** rest.

That's hilarious Saynta. I rarely hear any views from you that aren't just a knock on someone else's view. So.....'f****** rubbish'and 'f****** joke' are first class analysis coming from you.

Why don't you tell us where you would play Seb, 2 x TBA Winner in the St.Kilda Team of the 21st Century. Just for good measure, try and squeeze in Jack Steven too.

There's 6 B&F'S from the era that might equate to one spot, 21 seasons into the century. Do they name emergencies?

[B.M]

Both players would make it

Jack Steven ad a starting rover

Seb Ross on the interchange

[B.M]

Dempster - Hudghton - Baker
Gram - Fisher - A Jones
Goddard - Hayes - Dal Santo
Schneider- Riewoldt- Montagna
Milne - Gehrig - Membrey
Gardiner - Harvey - Steven
Ball - Ross - Koschitzke - Steele

Unlucky
Voss, Thompson, Gilbert, Blake, Geary

That’s just off the top of my head

[B.M]

Clint Jones a bit stiff too

[The_Dud]

Who was his opponent?

How did they play?

What was his role??

Thanks for making my point, which was that you (as you did) can’t look at ONE instant or performance to judge a player.

We could keep going back and forward but I can tell you, if we looked at the last 5 years, I would find more good performances than you would find bad ones!

On a large body of work, Seb has performed well as an AFL mid, without a good tap ruckman (until 2020) and with little support around him. This surely cannot be denied, I’m not sure why people want to deny him any credit?! Why do you want to prove Seb is a poor player? As I said, he is NOT the reason we were average, others who played worse were the reason!

He has played on and beaten/broke even with
Dangerfield
Bontempelli
Martin
Does that make him better than them? No, but it shows he can play at the level very well
He was flogged by Kelly
Does that mean he’s hopeless? No, he had a bad game, it happens

Don’t need to cherry-pick games to see the downward trend Seb is on that coincides with the team performing better.

You can’t pretend Seb didn’t drop off across the board this year, using any measure you’d like (b&f, coaches votes, SC/DT etc.)

Most are happy to say he was a good player in a poor team. But in a finals team he is nothing more than depth. Many younger blokes have now passed him. Steele’s year was better than any Seb has ever had, and I think we’ll be saying the same about Clark, Coff etc. soon too.

And I’d be putting the likes of Black, Powell, Thompson in the discussions ahead of Seb for best team of the last 20 years.

[Vortex]

Billings didn't pass Sebby this year.

[Joffa Burns]

Dempster - Hudghton - Baker
Gram - Fisher - A Jones
Goddard - Hayes - Dal Santo
Schneider- Riewoldt- Montagna
Milne - Gehrig - Membrey
Gardiner - Harvey - Steven
Ball - Ross - Koschitzke - Steele

Unlucky
Voss, Thompson, Gilbert, Blake, Geary

That’s just off the top of my head

Good team.

How about?
Spider Everett 2001 B&F in front of Gardiner?
Could almost argue Marshall for Ryder.
Aron Hamill for Membrey?
Ball gets in as AA 2005.
Thompson in front of Ross?
Does Peckett challenge Gram or a bench possie?
Matt Maguire pre broken leg was a fine player.

[skeptic]

Ahead of Ross would be Thompson, Powell and Black

Or I’d have one of Gilbert, Peckett and Voss to free up an appropriate flanker to also go on the middle

[CQ SAINT]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

I would think that Ross is ahead of Dunstan. Dunstan is the more natural footballer but fades in and out on effort and stamina. Ross is a real competitor. He is in games all the time, he just lacks refined skill and damaging impact. Dunstan may pop up occasionally and looks dangerous but he also lacks skill and seems to drop his bundle at times.

[skeptic]

The Ross vs Dunstan discussion again...

Whose better: the stalwart mid of the last 5-6 years, dual BF winner, at times acting captain/vice captain who will be in the top 22 at the start of rd1

Or... fringe player that has failed to lock his spot in the top 22 for more than a few games at a time over what... 7ish years now, that is currently the 2-3 reserve mid (if we’re being generous) in line and would be an odds on favourite currently to get cut once his contract is up

What’s the discussion

[Vortex]

Can Dunstan improve his endurance and thus play 4 quarters of football and thus imrove his standing and value?

[The_Dud]

I don’t think there’s anything Ross does that Dunstan couldn’t with the same opportunity.

What is the difference between them skill-wise really?

They seem pretty much the same to me (hand/foot skills, speed), though Ross probably gets more of the ball (opportunity?) and Dunstan is probably harder (more tackles) and kicks more goals.

[B.M]

Heath Black?

Kidding yourself, he played 3 seasons and was just an OK player

Lot of wingmen better than him

[B.M]

Ross is a better kick than Dunstan marginally

What he is a lot better at

Winning the footy (pretty important for a mid)
Spreading from the contest
Defending (Seb has shown the ability to run with)

The reason they don’t get the ‘same’ opportunities is that Seb is a far better player! Anyone would know this!

Would you like me to do a player comparison?

[saynta]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

Your not interested in facts BM. Otherwise you'd agree that Ross won most of his votes because of his athleticism and that ability that gave him the chance to be very average with the ball 26.5 times every week. Just like when he won the Ian Stewart award against Richmond in 2016.

To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.

"To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.'

What a f****** joke.

In one post you have managed to destroy any football credibility you may have had.

Ok Saynta. He must be right up there with the likes of Ross Smith, Ian Stewart, Robert Harvey etc.... if Ross turned up to training during these guys era's, he'd be sent out to the car park.

More f****** rubbish. No one has said that Seb should have won a brownlow FFS. Geez.

You are wrong and now flogging a very dead horse with the rubbish you are posting.

You can have your views but you ain't going to change mine or others too it would seem. So give it a f****** rest.

That's hilarious Saynta. I rarely hear any views from you that aren't just a knock on someone else's view. So.....'f****** rubbish'and 'f****** joke' are first class analysis coming from you.

Why don't you tell us where you would play Seb, 2 x TBA Winner in the St.Kilda Team of the 21st Century. Just for good measure, try and squeeze in Jack Steven too.

There's 6 B&F'S from the era that might equate to one spot, 21 seasons into the century. Do they name emergencies?

Yawn. You are getting more boring the more you post.

Why don't you try and absorb some of the real footballing knowledge being posted by B M and J B instead of boring us with rubbish.

I know football is a foreign game to you banana benders, but you might learn something.

[B.M]

What do you mean improve his endurance?

He’s 25 with 7 years in a professional training environment
With a well known and documented lack of endurance

Do you think he hasn’t tried to work on that before this year?

He’s naturally heavy, especially in the legs. Big quads for the lactic acid to build up in!
He is just not a good runner, that’s the guts of it

[CQ SAINT]

You obviously made up your mind that Seb is an average player. I believe any player in any AFL team who has won 2 B&Fs and a runner up is better than average. Especially one who has made the AA squad of 40 and in three seasons has polled 14, 12 & 10 Brownlow votes. How did that happen for an average player.

I’d even suggest a player who has placed on the podium of a B&F more than once better than average.

BTW
Who was our best player in our last game?

Ratten gave Seb run with jobs on the oppositions best player, because he trusted him to do a job and Seb has the discipline and concentration to get it done.

You can argue all you like, that Seb is an average footballer. I will just look at the facts.

BTW
Just to test your bias
Who do you rate higher - Dunstan or Ross

Your not interested in facts BM. Otherwise you'd agree that Ross won most of his votes because of his athleticism and that ability that gave him the chance to be very average with the ball 26.5 times every week. Just like when he won the Ian Stewart award against Richmond in 2016.

To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.

"To be honest, in my memory of all time Saints greats, I'd rate him behind Peckett and Blake but ahead of Daniels, Savage and Clinton Jones. Not sure if there were any B&F's in that bunch but they were all average footballers who worked extremely hard and got the most of the abilities they had. Skill wise, Peckett was miles ahead of Ross. The rest were average exponents of the skills but made something of themselves and maintained a position in some very good sides.'

What a f****** joke.

In one post you have managed to destroy any football credibility you may have had.

Ok Saynta. He must be right up there with the likes of Ross Smith, Ian Stewart, Robert Harvey etc.... if Ross turned up to training during these guys era's, he'd be sent out to the car park.

More f****** rubbish. No one has said that Seb should have won a brownlow FFS. Geez.

You are wrong and now flogging a very dead horse with the rubbish you are posting.

You can have your views but you ain't going to change mine or others too it would seem. So give it a f****** rest.

That's hilarious Saynta. I rarely hear any views from you that aren't just a knock on someone else's view. So.....'f****** rubbish'and 'f****** joke' are first class analysis coming from you.

Why don't you tell us where you would play Seb, 2 x TBA Winner in the St.Kilda Team of the 21st Century. Just for good measure, try and squeeze in Jack Steven too.

There's 6 B&F'S from the era that might equate to one spot, 21 seasons into the century. Do they name emergencies?

Yawn. You are getting more boring the more you post.

Why don't you try and absorb some of the real footballing knowledge being posted by B M and J B instead of boring us with rubbish.

I know football is a foreign game to you banana benders, but you might learn something.

More quality from you Saynta. Keep up your input. I look forward to learning from you.

Might be a disappointing year for you and Seb. The team is improving and Seb's value is going in the opposite direction. I still reckon he could try impacting on the game more though, instead of the fantasy footy stat sheet.

[Vortex]

What do you mean improve his endurance?

He’s 25 with 7 years in a professional training environment
With a well known and documented lack of endurance

Do you think he hasn’t tried to work on that before this year?

He’s naturally heavy, especially in the legs. Big quads for the lactic acid to build up in!
He is just not a good runner, that’s the guts of it

He's not the first to have that body type and excel at the elite level and improve their endurance, has it been a case of his commitment and work ethic to this point in his career that has been lacking?

He has had an issue with the booze in the past, maybe he's been one of these types that takes a while to mature.

Clearly he's had a hefty kick in the backside during the trade period and must surely know he has one pre season to salvage his AFL career.

[skeptic]

Can Dunstan improve his endurance and thus play 4 quarters of football and thus imrove his standing and value?

I certainly hope so but this has been an identifiable measure of improvement for at least 3-4 years now.

Personally I’m not optimistic at this point

In terms of what’s held him back... I’m not sure. Am hopeful that’s it been effort in training because that means there’s a lot of potential for improvement quickly.
If he’s an elite trainer already... pbly means he’s done

[B.M]

Joffa

The biggest decision was the ruck
Spider played just the 3 seasons in the 2000s and missed most of the 2002 season and a chunk of the 2000 season. Rowan has had 1 good season as a Ruck and one as a fwd/ruck (I had him competing with Kosi). Went with Gardiner/Kosi but not confidently

Frankies best footy 94-98 was behind him by the turn of the century and he was just a solid citizen after that

Found the Membrey over Hamill quite an easy decision
Membrey is a 3 time leading goalkicker and has played as the no 1 forward for a few years. Hamill was a battering ram and at his best and injury free was a beast. Injury obviously curtailed him! But Membrey has him covered for output.

Thompson career wise perhaps ahead of Ross, maybe not. Remember he played 3 pretty good seasons in the 90s. After 2003 Thompson was a fringe player for three seasons.
Won a B&F in 2000 but if Seb gets criticised for winning B&Fs in 11 & 9 game winning seasons and being the best in a poor team
Thompson won his sole B&F in a wooden spoon season where we won 2 games.

I think
Gilbert, Blake, Jones and Voss are the unlucky ones.
All played a LOT. Of good footy