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BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Sun 28 Jun 2020 12:27pmCharlie McAdam, down from Alice Springs, didn’t see much of it. He’d been forcefully removed from his mother when he was six. He’d worked as a stockman and a boxer. He was standing in the outer but the abuse directed towards his son quickly proved too much. He left Victoria Park in tears. He listened to the rest of the game on radio back at his hotel. “I just couldn’t stomach it,” he later said.
Sorry but I didn't see or hear anyone disputing that racist remarks occurred on that day.
What I believe is being questioned is the original intent of the gesture concerned, and the mythology that has grown round it.
Very naive.
By questioning the original motive of Winmar raising his jumper - you are effectively arguing any number of the following:
- He's a liar.
- He's deceived many people for his own personalr gain.
- He might not have really cared about racism at the time, and winning a game of footy meant more to him.
- The whole Collingwood racist thing has been overblown.
- Winmar is a stooge for the Left.
- The whole thing isn't really iconic at all.
Even if Scott, Newman and Sheahan didn't directly mean any of the above - they have directly argued the first two. And they have unfortunately brought rednecks and cretins out of the woodwork to argue the rest.
If you don't think this the case, check out BigFooty for just one example of this.
We even have people on here bringing his character into question. Like it's relevant to anything.
[B]"Just recently Nicky said to me: 'I really appreciate you've changed my life, but for me, I'm having to embrace possibly one of the worst days of my life over and over again',"[/B][/i]
This is what I was questioning. Who was it said to?
I have no memory of what the Hun reported. I vividly recall this making the cover of the Sunday Age (cannot recall front or back) with the Ludbey shot. The next morning.
I can't quite get the still but if you watch this excerpt from The Australian Dream, pause it on the article. 2 min 13. Contemporaneous record.
Funny thing isn't...when some one keeps digging...so they can climb out of a hole...if you haven't ever been subject to racism...why bother questioning what someone else felt?
The whole notion of racism is fundamentally that one class of homo sapien think they are better/smarter/cultured/more superior and more human than others.
The reason it exists, and will continue to exist is because of peoples ignorance.
It's very difficult to change the mindset in just 1 or 2 generations when it's taken centuries to embed that mindset into the DNA of the majority
SemperFidelis wrote:I have no memory of what the Hun reported. I vividly recall this making the cover of the Sunday Age (cannot recall front or back) with the Ludbey shot. The next morning.
I can't quite get the still but if you watch this excerpt from The Australian Dream, pause it on the article. 2 min 13. Contemporaneous record.
I can't believe this is a thing.
I'll back #7.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
SemperFidelis wrote:I have no memory of what the Hun reported. I vividly recall this making the cover of the Sunday Age (cannot recall front or back) with the Ludbey shot. The next morning.
I can't quite get the still but if you watch this excerpt from The Australian Dream, pause it on the article. 2 min 13. Contemporaneous record.
SemperFidelis wrote:I have no memory of what the Hun reported. I vividly recall this making the cover of the Sunday Age (cannot recall front or back) with the Ludbey shot. The next morning.
I can't quite get the still but if you watch this excerpt from The Australian Dream, pause it on the article. 2 min 13. Contemporaneous record.
I can't believe this is a thing.
I'll back #7.
End of story. Well done.
Actually, here’s an article talking about the different reporting at the time. See under “The Moment.”
Yep, possibly so, but that wouldn't suit the agenda of journos like Caro and some posters here who love to pin the racist label on their fellow countrymen and women.
Darth Vader wrote: ↑Sun 28 Jun 2020 6:14pm
Maybe Don Scott etc were just recalling what they read in the Herald Sun at the time rather than being rampant racists.
I would have thought that if that's all they meant, they'd have actually said that.
Sheahan pretty much did say that, to be fair.
The other two though, very clearly disputed Winmar's version of events and literally suggested he's a liar who has deceived people over it for his own benefit.
I'm not the best person (as a 35yo white guy that's had it pretty good) to determine if their motives are racial or not - but they're certainly arseholes for doing it.
Darth Vader wrote: ↑Sun 28 Jun 2020 6:14pm
Maybe Don Scott etc were just recalling what they read in the Herald Sun at the time rather than being rampant racists.
I would have thought that if that's all they meant, they'd have actually said that.
Sheahan pretty much did say that, to be fair.
The other two though, very clearly disputed Winmar's version of events and literally suggested he's a liar who has deceived people over it for his own benefit.
I'm not the best person (as a 35yo white guy that's had it pretty good) to determine if their motives are racial or not - but they're certainly arseholes for doing it.
I don't disagree with you. But then we all knew thar Sam was an arsehole and Scott a see you...
BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Sun 28 Jun 2020 12:51pm
By questioning the original motive of Winmar raising his jumper - you are effectively arguing any number of the following:
- He's a liar.
- He's deceived many people for his own personalr gain.
- He might not have really cared about racism at the time, and winning a game of footy meant more to him.
- The whole Collingwood racist thing has been overblown.
- Winmar is a stooge for the Left.
- The whole thing isn't really iconic at all.
Even if Scott, Newman and Sheahan didn't directly mean any of the above - they have directly argued the first two. And they have unfortunately brought rednecks and cretins out of the woodwork to argue the rest.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Sat 27 Jun 2020 4:17pm
I was at that game in the outer and do not recall a single racist word yelled at a player.
Maybe at that time I was just accepting that racism was the norm so I don't recall anything specific.
i remember the Nicky gesture and it being reported at the time rightly or wrongly as a showing guts gesture as reported on the podcast. Perhaps they were wrong, perhaps that was a convenient explanation in a racist era, who knows?
Regardless of the intent at the time (guts or skin color) the gesture has transcended the moment and has become a symbol of racism in the sport and has served as a point of non acceptance which is extremely positive.
Nicky and Gilby tore the arses of those s*** bag scum suckers that day and have been immortalized ever since.
I think the dignified response from Nicky would be to suggest the fossils not be given airtime and that the wide majority of people understand the truth behind the gesture. Unfortunately Nickys life has not been as successful or positive a his football career therefore who knows the motivation, I hope it is genuine.
I think this is a great post and expresses how you feel really well. I just can't believe that some posters are projecting onto it, such enthusiastic wishfullness that it contained anything racist.
It was just your view, which our posts are supposed to be on a football forum, as I recall. No biggie.
Darth Vader wrote: ↑Sun 28 Jun 2020 6:14pm
Maybe Don Scott etc were just recalling what they read in the Herald Sun at the time rather than being rampant racists.
I would have thought that if that's all they meant, they'd have actually said that.
Sheahan pretty much did say that, to be fair.
The other two though, very clearly disputed Winmar's version of events and literally suggested he's a liar who has deceived people over it for his own benefit.
I'm not the best person (as a 35yo white guy that's had it pretty good) to determine if their motives are racial or not - but they're certainly arseholes for doing it.
Not necessarily. What I meant was their recollections of the event might be influenced by what they read at the time. I wouldn't expect them to actually recall and restate where they got the info 27 years ago. In fact, I don't expect much from them at all - they're both pretty inarticulate guys so they don't express themselves very well and are not capable of bringing any depth or nuance (or even basic civility) to the conversation.
BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Fri 26 Jun 2020 11:53pm
On a side note, FWIW, the worst racial abuse I've ever witnessed was at from North supporters at Moorabbin about 30 years ago - and even worse yet at the 05 Prelim from Swans supporters.
I actually reckon I've only been to about 4 or 5 games of footy since that night. Awful. Grotesque.
FWIW, the worst racist abuse I have seen at the footy was the ongoing treatment of Raph Clarke over 2009 - 10 seasons. Much of which was most definitely from St Kilda supporters
Not necessarily. What I meant was their recollections of the event might be influenced by what they read at the time. I wouldn't expect them to actually recall and restate where they got the info 27 years ago. In fact, I don't expect much from them at all - they're both pretty inarticulate guys so they don't express themselves very well and are not capable of bringing any depth or nuance (or even basic civility) to the conversation.
You're missing the point.
This isn't about people having a differemt recolection of an event.
That's not what Scott and Newman have said. They went beyond that and have said that their recollection at the time is correct, and that Winmar 'has dined off it' since by deceiving everyone about what he really meant at the time.
If they had have said that they thought at the time it was about guts or whatever, then no one would give a s***.
But they're actually disputing Winmar's version of events.
That's very different. And an entirely different discussion.
You must have been a very articulate and worldly five year old when you went to that match at Moorabbin 30 years ago to witness such racial abuse and make a bold and defining decision to attend only spasmodically over the next 30 years. Was the abuse leveled at our players by North fans or at Norths Krauker brothers by Saints fans?
I was also at the 05 Prelim at the G and would have guessed we had 70% plus of the crowd and again did not hear any racial abuse, so if there was as you suggest I certainly hope it wasn't coming from our own.
BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Fri 26 Jun 2020 11:53pm
On a side note, FWIW, the worst racial abuse I've ever witnessed was at from North supporters at Moorabbin about 30 years ago - and even worse yet at the 05 Prelim from Swans supporters.
I actually reckon I've only been to about 4 or 5 games of footy since that night. Awful. Grotesque.
BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Sun 28 Jun 2020 7:17pm
I would have thought that if that's all they meant, they'd have actually said that.
Sheahan pretty much did say that, to be fair.
The other two though, very clearly disputed Winmar's version of events and literally suggested he's a liar who has deceived people over it for his own benefit.
I'm not the best person (as a 35yo white guy that's had it pretty good) to determine if their motives are racial or not - but they're certainly arseholes for doing it.
Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Mon 29 Jun 2020 1:10pm
You must have been a very articulate and worldly five year old when you went to that match at Moorabbin 30 years ago to witness such racial abuse and make a bold and defining decision to attend only spasmodically over the next 30 years. Was the abuse leveled at our players by North fans or at Norths Krauker brothers by Saints fans?
I don't think I was 5.
But I do recall constant use of 'n word' was directed at Winmar - even when he wasn't involved in the play.
I also remember a kid about my age running off with the footy from behind the goals in the car park after a goal was kicked, and thinking to myself 'oh man, livin' the dream'.
I pretty much stopped going to the footy after the 05 Prelim. It was vile.
The group of Swans fans had a child with them too. It was just appalling. I couldn't get my head around them screaming such foul racial vitriol at Saints players - but then cheering for Goodes and O'Loughlin.
It wasn't a conscious decision to stop going after that night, I just ceased seeing the footy as a good environment to be in. It was an ugly scene that I just didn't want in my life.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Mon 29 Jun 2020 1:10pm
You must have been a very articulate and worldly five year old when you went to that match at Moorabbin 30 years ago to witness such racial abuse and make a bold and defining decision to attend only spasmodically over the next 30 years. Was the abuse leveled at our players by North fans or at Norths Krauker brothers by Saints fans?
I don't think I was 5.
But I do recall constant use of 'n word' was directed at Winmar - even when he wasn't involved in the play.
I also remember a kid about my age running off with the footy from behind the goals in the car park after a goal was kicked, and thinking to myself 'oh man, livin' the dream'.
I pretty much stopped going to the footy after the 05 Prelim. It was vile.
The group of Swans fans had a child with them too. It was just appalling. I couldn't get my head around them screaming such foul racial vitriol at Saints players - but then cheering for Goodes and O'Loughlin.
It wasn't a conscious decision to stop going after that night, I just ceased seeing the footy as a good environment to be in. It was an ugly scene that I just didn't want in my life.
Wow, 5 year old making those sort of decisions consciously or unconsciously.. just wow.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Mon 29 Jun 2020 1:10pm
You must have been a very articulate and worldly five year old when you went to that match at Moorabbin 30 years ago to witness such racial abuse and make a bold and defining decision to attend only spasmodically over the next 30 years. Was the abuse leveled at our players by North fans or at Norths Krauker brothers by Saints fans?
I don't think I was 5.
But I do recall constant use of 'n word' was directed at Winmar - even when he wasn't involved in the play.
I also remember a kid about my age running off with the footy from behind the goals in the car park after a goal was kicked, and thinking to myself 'oh man, livin' the dream'.
I pretty much stopped going to the footy after the 05 Prelim. It was vile.
The group of Swans fans had a child with them too. It was just appalling. I couldn't get my head around them screaming such foul racial vitriol at Saints players - but then cheering for Goodes and O'Loughlin.
It wasn't a conscious decision to stop going after that night, I just ceased seeing the footy as a good environment to be in. It was an ugly scene that I just didn't want in my life.
Wow, 5 year old making those sort of decisions consciously or unconsciously.. just wow.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Mon 29 Jun 2020 1:10pm
You must have been a very articulate and worldly five year old when you went to that match at Moorabbin 30 years ago to witness such racial abuse and make a bold and defining decision to attend only spasmodically over the next 30 years. Was the abuse leveled at our players by North fans or at Norths Krauker brothers by Saints fans?
I don't think I was 5.
But I do recall constant use of 'n word' was directed at Winmar - even when he wasn't involved in the play.
I also remember a kid about my age running off with the footy from behind the goals in the car park after a goal was kicked, and thinking to myself 'oh man, livin' the dream'.
I pretty much stopped going to the footy after the 05 Prelim. It was vile.
The group of Swans fans had a child with them too. It was just appalling. I couldn't get my head around them screaming such foul racial vitriol at Saints players - but then cheering for Goodes and O'Loughlin.
It wasn't a conscious decision to stop going after that night, I just ceased seeing the footy as a good environment to be in. It was an ugly scene that I just didn't want in my life.
Wow, 5 year old making those sort of decisions consciously or unconsciously.. just wow.
Not necessarily. What I meant was their recollections of the event might be influenced by what they read at the time. I wouldn't expect them to actually recall and restate where they got the info 27 years ago. In fact, I don't expect much from them at all - they're both pretty inarticulate guys so they don't express themselves very well and are not capable of bringing any depth or nuance (or even basic civility) to the conversation.
You're missing the point.
This isn't about people having a differemt recolection of an event.
That's not what Scott and Newman have said. They went beyond that and have said that their recollection at the time is correct, and that Winmar 'has dined off it' since by deceiving everyone about what he really meant at the time.
If they had have said that they thought at the time it was about guts or whatever, then no one would give a s***.
But they're actually disputing Winmar's version of events.
That's very different. And an entirely different discussion.
I think you might be putting words in their mouths - they didn’t say their recollection is correct, they just broadly said this is what they think happened, which by definition is based on their recollections which in turn could have been influenced by what they read at the time. But I agree, this isn’t really the point. Your main point is correct, Don Scott definitely said Winmar has dined off it which suggests he’s been bullsh*tting so I can understand why Nicky is pissed off.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Mon 29 Jun 2020 1:10pm
You must have been a very articulate and worldly five year old when you went to that match at Moorabbin 30 years ago to witness such racial abuse and make a bold and defining decision to attend only spasmodically over the next 30 years. Was the abuse leveled at our players by North fans or at Norths Krauker brothers by Saints fans?
I don't think I was 5.
But I do recall constant use of 'n word' was directed at Winmar - even when he wasn't involved in the play.
I also remember a kid about my age running off with the footy from behind the goals in the car park after a goal was kicked, and thinking to myself 'oh man, livin' the dream'.
I pretty much stopped going to the footy after the 05 Prelim. It was vile.
The group of Swans fans had a child with them too. It was just appalling. I couldn't get my head around them screaming such foul racial vitriol at Saints players - but then cheering for Goodes and O'Loughlin.
It wasn't a conscious decision to stop going after that night, I just ceased seeing the footy as a good environment to be in. It was an ugly scene that I just didn't want in my life.
Wow, 5 year old making those sort of decisions consciously or unconsciously.. just wow.
?
Now I'm no mathematician, but going by your own posts if you are 35 years old now and went to a game 30 years ago where you witnessed racial abuse, you don't need to be Terence Tao to work out you were circa 5 years old at that time.
Am I missing something?
BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Fri 26 Jun 2020 11:53pm
On a side note, FWIW, the worst racial abuse I've ever witnessed was at from North supporters at Moorabbin about 30 years ago - and even worse yet at the 05 Prelim from Swans supporters.
I actually reckon I've only been to about 4 or 5 games of footy since that night. Awful. Grotesque.
BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Sun 28 Jun 2020 7:17pm
I would have thought that if that's all they meant, they'd have actually said that.
Sheahan pretty much did say that, to be fair.
The other two though, very clearly disputed Winmar's version of events and literally suggested he's a liar who has deceived people over it for his own benefit.
I'm not the best person (as a 35yo white guy that's had it pretty good) to determine if their motives are racial or not - but they're certainly arseholes for doing it.
Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Mon 29 Jun 2020 3:29pm
Now I'm no mathematician, but going by your own posts if you are 35 years old now and went to a game 30 years ago where you witnessed racial abuse, you don't need to be Terence Tao to work out you were circa 5 years old at that time.
Am I missing something?
Well you're clearly missing the point, that's obvious.
