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Bullying,
paedophiles (apparently, but go figure ),
the right to be a bogan,
the 'chattering classes',
left and right wingers gone crazy,
standing up on national television,
diving,
'invasion day',
"go back to where you came from" (to an indigenous Australian - how's that for dripping irony?),
ape/orang utang/monkey off the back calls,
"I paid my money and I'll say what I want in a free country",
I didn't steal anyone's land or kill anyone and I don't think that my ancestors did either
.......................... the list goes on, doesn't it?
All this to avoid facing up to the basic issue of human frailty preventing some of us from recognising and respecting this land's original inhabitants? Why should that be such a big deal??? Surely our great nation can rise above the Japanese baseball crowds of this world?
From my reading of some previous posts on here, this forum actually once had a poster who was pretty damn excellent at spotting and then deconstructing straw man arguments. And this thread is littered with straw men!
Wish that poster was still posting on here.
For something more light-hearted, don't forget to play my little YouTube video.
It'll go down upon my threatened SS execution - don't do it Mods. Please.
Joffabouy - a unique entity, a friendly and light-hearted poster, a Saint's tragic. Wishing to chat about all things Saints, and to encourage people to consume more Tarax. https://youtu.be/LWqGI98MNyc
SuperDuper wrote:The worst excuse is the 13 year old girl one..
The girl repeatedly called him an ape. 13 year olds are fully aware of what racism is, and are fully aware not to call aboriginals apes..
Now, I agree with Goodes, most of the responsibility lies with the parents, and the adults around her... what Goodes said in the interview was spot on... and he DID NOT PUT THE BLAME ON THE GIRL
people keep using this quote:
"Racism had a face...and it was a 13-year-old girl"
without quoting the next sentences...
“To be able to make a stand myself and say ‘racism has a face’ last night and, you know, it was a 13-year-old girl but it’s not her fault. She's 13, she's still so innocent, I don’t put any blame on her. Unfortunately it’s what she hears, the environment she’s grown up in that has made her think it’s okay to call people names. I can guarantee you right now she would have no idea, you know, how it makes anyone feel by calling them an ape … But I think the person that needs the most support is the little girl, you know. People need to get around her, she's 13, she’s uneducated.”
he also said later
"I've had fantastic support over the past 24 hours,' Goodes said.
'I just hope that people give the 13-year-old girl the same sort of support because she needs it, her family needs it, and the people around them need it.
'It's not a witch-hunt, I don't want people to go after this young girl.
'We've just got to help educate society better so it doesn't happen again.'
Well there you have it.
Anyone trying to use this incident as an excuse is seriously twisting the facts.
"But but but ummm, I booo him cos he he he dived for a free in 06!" Yeah yeah right.
Must be great to live in your simple world.
So he did not stand up on National tV and proclaim the face of racism is a 13 year old girl?
He grandstanded and uses her for political purposes.
Can you read???
you are simply quoting him out of context, without reading the totality of his comments.. which can only be confirmation bias
You mase up your mind about what he said, I guess you probably did not even do that, you let Andrew Bolt or someone like that make your mind up for you.. and ignore the facts which are almost the complete opposite in terms of message conveyed
Trivialising rape for so as to demonise EVERYONE that booed Adam Goodes.
happy you are comfortable with that.
Just another example of the lynch mob mentality headed by this idiot.
Whats next? You boo at the football you are a peodaphile?
SuperDuper wrote:The worst excuse is the 13 year old girl one..
The girl repeatedly called him an ape. 13 year olds are fully aware of what racism is, and are fully aware not to call aboriginals apes..
Now, I agree with Goodes, most of the responsibility lies with the parents, and the adults around her... what Goodes said in the interview was spot on... and he DID NOT PUT THE BLAME ON THE GIRL
people keep using this quote:
"Racism had a face...and it was a 13-year-old girl"
without quoting the next sentences...
“To be able to make a stand myself and say ‘racism has a face’ last night and, you know, it was a 13-year-old girl but it’s not her fault. She's 13, she's still so innocent, I don’t put any blame on her. Unfortunately it’s what she hears, the environment she’s grown up in that has made her think it’s okay to call people names. I can guarantee you right now she would have no idea, you know, how it makes anyone feel by calling them an ape … But I think the person that needs the most support is the little girl, you know. People need to get around her, she's 13, she’s uneducated.”
oooh, be careful there Bunk, you don't want to commit a doubleplus ungood thought crime........
he also said later
"I've had fantastic support over the past 24 hours,' Goodes said.
'I just hope that people give the 13-year-old girl the same sort of support because she needs it, her family needs it, and the people around them need it.
'It's not a witch-hunt, I don't want people to go after this young girl.
'We've just got to help educate society better so it doesn't happen again.'
Well there you have it.
Anyone trying to use this incident as an excuse is seriously twisting the facts.
"But but but ummm, I booo him cos he he he dived for a free in 06!" Yeah yeah right.
Must be great to live in your simple world.
So he did not stand up on National tV and proclaim the face of racism is a 13 year old girl?
He grandstanded and uses her for political purposes.
Can you read???
you are simply quoting him out of context, without reading the totality of his comments.. which can only be confirmation bias
You mase up your mind about what he said, I guess you probably did not even do that, you let Andrew Bolt or someone like that make your mind up for you.. and ignore the facts which are almost the complete opposite in terms of message conveyed
Trivialising rape for so as to demonise EVERYONE that booed Adam Goodes.
happy you are comfortable with that.
Just another example of the lynch mob mentality headed by this idiot.
Whats next? You boo at the football you are a peodaphile?
You people are insane
Ahhhh, be careful there Bunk, you don't want to commit a doubleplus ungood thought crime do you?
The heavy metal artist formerly known as True Believer!
IF you look around the room and can't identify who the sucker is, then it's probably you!
You got to give it to Bunk even when he is made to look stupid even when his arguments are pathetic even when he is shown up time after time to be a racist ethnocentric bigot he will fight to the end defending his honour even when it becomes nearly too embarrassing to read his drivel ( I must admit I do enjoy watching Bunk struggle with issues unrelated to football) he still has to have the last wimpy response so I guess he's a fighter and a hater and that could be seen by some on here as an ok trait to have but really Bunk for the sake of humanity and yourself and the rest of us who don't want to Boo Goodes give it a rest you have been exposed as a pseudo intellectual wanna be .
Joe Bloggs wrote:You got to give it to Bunk even when he is made to look stupid even when his arguments are pathetic even when he is shown up time after time to be a racist ethnocentric bigot he will fight to the end defending his honour even when it becomes nearly too embarrassing to read his drivel ( I must admit I do enjoy watching Bunk struggle with issues unrelated to football) he still has to have the last wimpy response so I guess he's a fighter and a hater and that could be seen by some on here as an ok trait to have but really Bunk for the sake of humanity and yourself and the rest of us who don't want to Boo Goodes give it a rest you have been exposed as a pseudo intellectual wanna be .
Actually, I am reasonably confident I know the thrust of his beliefs and politics, as I engaged in significant debates with him under an alternate nic, and I think labeling a racist and a bigot serves little purpose other than to demonstrate that you are an intellectual midget. He is railing and the "hivemind" mentality that is reflected by simply trying to label those who don't confirm to your orthodoxy, and your response is to label him!! It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.....
The heavy metal artist formerly known as True Believer!
IF you look around the room and can't identify who the sucker is, then it's probably you!
citywest wrote:If I ever have the pleasure of watching him play again, I WILL BOO THE s*** OUT OF HIM.
And I will be standing next to you cheering for him as loud as I can, everytime you open your mouth to boo him, for every one of his disposals and we will see who carries the day.
I guarantee you're not going to have it all your own way.
Joffabouy wrote:Bullying,
paedophiles (apparently, but go figure ),
the right to be a bogan,
the 'chattering classes',
left and right wingers gone crazy,
standing up on national television,
diving,
'invasion day',
"go back to where you came from" (to an indigenous Australian - how's that for dripping irony?),
ape/orang utang/monkey off the back calls,
"I paid my money and I'll say what I want in a free country",
I didn't steal anyone's land or kill anyone and I don't think that my ancestors did either
.......................... the list goes on, doesn't it?
All this to avoid facing up to the basic issue of human frailty preventing some of us from recognising and respecting this land's original inhabitants? Why should that be such a big deal??? Surely our great nation can rise above the Japanese baseball crowds of this world?
From my reading of some previous posts on here, this forum actually once had a poster who was pretty damn excellent at spotting and then deconstructing straw man arguments. And this thread is littered with straw men!
Wish that poster was still posting on here.
Strawman, AdHominem, Fallacy of the undivided middle, red herrings - this thread is a paradice for the logical fallacy
Joffabouy wrote:Bullying,
paedophiles (apparently, but go figure ),
the right to be a bogan,
the 'chattering classes',
left and right wingers gone crazy,
standing up on national television,
diving,
'invasion day',
"go back to where you came from" (to an indigenous Australian - how's that for dripping irony?),
ape/orang utang/monkey off the back calls,
"I paid my money and I'll say what I want in a free country",
I didn't steal anyone's land or kill anyone and I don't think that my ancestors did either
.......................... the list goes on, doesn't it?
All this to avoid facing up to the basic issue of human frailty preventing some of us from recognising and respecting this land's original inhabitants? Why should that be such a big deal??? Surely our great nation can rise above the Japanese baseball crowds of this world?
From my reading of some previous posts on here, this forum actually once had a poster who was pretty damn excellent at spotting and then deconstructing straw man arguments. And this thread is littered with straw men!
Wish that poster was still posting on here.
Strawman, AdHominem, Fallacy of the undivided middle, red herrings - this thread is a paradice for the logical fallacy
Your position may demonstrate some intellectual horsepower if you could spell........the irony appears to be dripping onto the thread below.......
The heavy metal artist formerly known as True Believer!
IF you look around the room and can't identify who the sucker is, then it's probably you!
Joffabouy wrote:Bullying,
paedophiles (apparently, but go figure ),
the right to be a bogan,
the 'chattering classes',
left and right wingers gone crazy,
standing up on national television,
diving,
'invasion day',
"go back to where you came from" (to an indigenous Australian - how's that for dripping irony?),
ape/orang utang/monkey off the back calls,
"I paid my money and I'll say what I want in a free country",
I didn't steal anyone's land or kill anyone and I don't think that my ancestors did either
.......................... the list goes on, doesn't it?
All this to avoid facing up to the basic issue of human frailty preventing some of us from recognising and respecting this land's original inhabitants? Why should that be such a big deal??? Surely our great nation can rise above the Japanese baseball crowds of this world?
From my reading of some previous posts on here, this forum actually once had a poster who was pretty damn excellent at spotting and then deconstructing straw man arguments. And this thread is littered with straw men!
Wish that poster was still posting on here.
Strawman, AdHominem, Fallacy of the undivided middle, red herrings - this thread is a paradice for the logical fallacy
Your position may demonstrate some intellectual horsepower if you could spell........the irony appears to be dripping onto the thread below.......
Ha! so perfect spelling underlies logical argumentation does it?
Care to explain that?
This should be interesting. I am sensing another red herring, speaking of irony.
Joffabouy wrote:Bullying,
paedophiles (apparently, but go figure ),
the right to be a bogan,
the 'chattering classes',
left and right wingers gone crazy,
standing up on national television,
diving,
'invasion day',
"go back to where you came from" (to an indigenous Australian - how's that for dripping irony?),
ape/orang utang/monkey off the back calls,
"I paid my money and I'll say what I want in a free country",
I didn't steal anyone's land or kill anyone and I don't think that my ancestors did either
.......................... the list goes on, doesn't it?
All this to avoid facing up to the basic issue of human frailty preventing some of us from recognising and respecting this land's original inhabitants? Why should that be such a big deal??? Surely our great nation can rise above the Japanese baseball crowds of this world?
From my reading of some previous posts on here, this forum actually once had a poster who was pretty damn excellent at spotting and then deconstructing straw man arguments. And this thread is littered with straw men!
Wish that poster was still posting on here.
For something more light-hearted, don't forget to play my little YouTube video.
It'll go down upon my threatened SS execution - don't do it Mods. Please.
I received a warning because you supposedly wanted to start over a new leaf and be call Bunk. Now you are posting as Joffaboy again. You are a disgrace.
Joffabouy wrote:Bullying,
paedophiles (apparently, but go figure ),
the right to be a bogan,
the 'chattering classes',
left and right wingers gone crazy,
standing up on national television,
diving,
'invasion day',
"go back to where you came from" (to an indigenous Australian - how's that for dripping irony?),
ape/orang utang/monkey off the back calls,
"I paid my money and I'll say what I want in a free country",
I didn't steal anyone's land or kill anyone and I don't think that my ancestors did either
.......................... the list goes on, doesn't it?
All this to avoid facing up to the basic issue of human frailty preventing some of us from recognising and respecting this land's original inhabitants? Why should that be such a big deal??? Surely our great nation can rise above the Japanese baseball crowds of this world?
From my reading of some previous posts on here, this forum actually once had a poster who was pretty damn excellent at spotting and then deconstructing straw man arguments. And this thread is littered with straw men!
Wish that poster was still posting on here.
For something more light-hearted, don't forget to play my little YouTube video.
It'll go down upon my threatened SS execution - don't do it Mods. Please.
I received a warning because you supposedly wanted to start over a new leaf and be call Bunk. Now you are posting as Joffaboy again. You are a disgrace.
What the hell are you talking about. Seriously get a grip.
Joffabouy wrote:Bullying,
paedophiles (apparently, but go figure ),
the right to be a bogan,
the 'chattering classes',
left and right wingers gone crazy,
standing up on national television,
diving,
'invasion day',
"go back to where you came from" (to an indigenous Australian - how's that for dripping irony?),
ape/orang utang/monkey off the back calls,
"I paid my money and I'll say what I want in a free country",
I didn't steal anyone's land or kill anyone and I don't think that my ancestors did either
.......................... the list goes on, doesn't it?
All this to avoid facing up to the basic issue of human frailty preventing some of us from recognising and respecting this land's original inhabitants? Why should that be such a big deal??? Surely our great nation can rise above the Japanese baseball crowds of this world?
From my reading of some previous posts on here, this forum actually once had a poster who was pretty damn excellent at spotting and then deconstructing straw man arguments. And this thread is littered with straw men!
Wish that poster was still posting on here.
For something more light-hearted, don't forget to play my little YouTube video.
It'll go down upon my threatened SS execution - don't do it Mods. Please.
I received a warning because you supposedly wanted to start over a new leaf and be call Bunk. Now you are posting as Joffaboy again. You are a disgrace.
What the hell are you talking about. Seriously get a grip.
So many good posts on this thread, but i dont honestly hlknow what the point is now: weve all become so entrenched, I don't know who's going to change their mind. So on we go.
For what it's worth: this is my view, worth as little as any of the others, but an opinion nonetheless to be taken or left, not meaning to lecture, berate or pontificate, just there it is:
To the people who hate Goodes cos of your judgement on his character, all of our various posts have revealed a little of ours, and I hope you just as passionately judge yourself the same way and maybe boo yourself into submission in the mirror every morning.
To the people who hate him for his supposed crimes against humanity, to be precise the bullying charge unequivocally debunked (pun intended) by Super Duper, I admire your principles, but you've been fooled by rightwing thought leaders. Try recalibrating with honesty.
For those reacting to the special treatment you feel is given to Goodes and perhaps to aboriginal people or other minority groups, maybe you can apply to the AFL to get a Victim Blaming Whinging Majority Scared Of Losing Our Privilege Round going. OK that was a bit of a dig. Lots of posters here and even voices outside this forum could help you understand the other side of the argument if you are ready to open your mind. There's no need to feel threatened, no one is saying we can't all thrive, but before it gets to that stage everyone needs to accept history and not just wipe the slate clean. We are all products of history and this context is crucial to finding a way forward.
To those who don't like Goodes cos of his dirty play, how dirty is he? Steven Baker dirty? Stop fooling yourselves.
To those who are in this debate as some kind of reaction against what you imagine is a high and mighty leftie elite controling your thoughts, without this type of challenge to indecency, we as a society would still feel OK with beating and raping our wives, letting industrialists wipe their feet on workers, and taking Aboriginal children from their families. (I'm not comparing, I'm saying that positive change has usually come about by some people telling others what they are thinking should change: we don't all just individually come to the same conclusions at the same time). If you don't care to be told what to do, fine. But at least take the time to consider the points honestly before you dismiss them, its important enough surely.
Finally, to those cunning weasels and muppets using duplicitous arguments, changing the subject, ridiculing the rest of us and introducing irrelevant comparisons to maintain the status quo, you and people like you (Andrew Bolt) are keeping Australia down for your own short term benefit, but all around Australia, people are waking up to you. The better you make it for yourselves, the worse the reaction will be for your kids or grandkids etc. Not a threat or a promise by the way.
Just My Opinion
------------------------------------------------
I missed the first quarter of our game on the box yesterday; apologies if this was discussed yesterday, but it was overwhelming good to see this on the back page of the Australian this morning (and always a bonus to see Nicky back in the red white and black).
Here's the first few paragraphs of Patrick Smith's article ...
"Yes, it is a nice, symbolic touch. Clever. But it is overwhelmingly sad, too. Nicky Winmar has made a second profound gesture against racism in Australian football.
He first did it 22 years ago at Victoria Park when he lifted his St Kilda jumper and pointed to the colour of his skin. The indigenous player had been racially vilified by the crowd at what was Collingwood’s home ground.
It was thought at the time and ever since to be the moment that the nation’s indigenous code, players, administrators and supporters became sensitive to the concerns and culture of Aboriginal footballers.
In front of players from Port Adelaide and St Kilda, Winmar yesterday tossed the coin for the round-18 match at Adelaide Oval. He shared the duties with Port Adelaide 2004 premiership indigenous players Gavin Wanganeen and Byron Pickett.
The moment was one of many around AFL venues on the weekend when the football community effectively celebrated the career of Sydney’s Adam Goodes, who was unable to play against Adelaide, crushed by more than 18 months of booing which he believes is racial vilification ..."
Always enjoy a good rundle. Twas written late last week, before the various shows of solidarity on the w/e that addressed some of what is referred to by Rundle. Contains a reference to N.E. Winwar, too (your mention was wot prodded me to provide a read, Semp).
As for the bolded paragraph on Bolt and Jones....well what can one say that does it justice. Jones as "Jowly Miss Jean Brodie"! Magnificent.
If someone posted it earlier, apologies for the repeat. Didn't read the earlier contributions.
"Rundle: AFL comrades, rally around Goodes -- and go on strike!
GUY RUNDLE
Crikey writer-at-large
Years ago, I seem to remember (or did I merely imagine it?) various quasi-unions and associations were conferring on amalgamating and then affiliating with the ACTU to create one big performers' union. At its headiest, this was going to combine Equity, the actors' mob, the writers guilds, and whatever union that covers party clowns and strippers ... and the AFL players' association. It was a delicious thought for a while. Those lithe ballet performers in their unstructured chaotic events called "Aussie rules" joining together with the actors, etc, etc.
That never came to anything, but it's expressive of a truth about football -- it's an industrial activity, a onetime community activity that has since become an input product for mass media, the live crowds themselves now a mere add-on to the spectacle. Teams that were once grounded in the communities they lived in and could draw their players only from certain geographical areas are now brands, mere labels for whatever collection of players they build in each year.
That has not only changed the relationship between club and community, it has changed that between spectator and players. Players who once played on a Saturday and worked down the high street Monday to Friday are now separate people, superstars who live separate lives. That has given them lives that many could only envy -- even if many stuff up those opportunities -- but it also leaves them isolated, both from the fans and each other. Players have become commodities. That largely unspoken factor lies at the heart of the nasty, sad, depressing attacks on Adam Goodes, the reaction to them -- and gives a clue about what needs to happen.
That the attacks on Goodes are racist is obvious, but it's a complex performance of racism. In Europe, until pretty recently, non-white players for venerable soccer clubs would get systemically booed. But that was old-school white arrogance, the idea that these "subhumans" were besmirching the game that implicitly expressed the best of human achievement. The systemic attempt to do Adam Goodes' head in has a different character. You won't find much overt racialism in the comments about Goodes -- no accusation of Aborigines being "unfit" to play the great game. Goodes isn't being booed by the self-selecting group doing it because they believe themselves to be superior to him. They're doing it because they know they aren't, and the player-fanbase relationship has a strange and not always positive twist these days.
The self-selecting group of people whose chief pleasure in attending the game now comes from sledging Goodes may well be racist in their selection of an "uppity" Aborigine, but their relation to him is defensive and quasi-hysterical. He's been a problem for them from the start, a man with a more confident and urbane bearing than many players -- and particularly different to an earlier generation of earlier, somewhat quieter, indigenous AFL stars, who gave the impression that they were simply grateful to be getting a game, which was a demeanour acceptable to that section of the crowd. Furthermore the relationship between fans and players has taken on the same sadomasochistic quality of all audience-celebrity relationships: we want what they deliver, we hate them for their superiority.
With footballers, that's become very marked, as they've become different in every way. Before it became huge business, players looked like the fans -- somewhat fitter, but the same sort of demeanour, tending towards flab. Now as the fans have got flabbier, the players, trained, trimmed and sculpted by specialists, look better, play better and have wholly different lives. Resentment is never far from the surface. With white players, it's channelled into vicarious thrills at their chaotic rockstar disaster lives, their maudlin battles with depression, etc, etc, but Goodes presents another challenge: a man not content to be nothing more than a ball-kicking machine. His assertion of his full humanity challenges the fan-player/master-servant relationship that makes fandom possible.
That's the key to this essentially neurotic group reaction to a couple of fake war dances ... Let's face it, most of the people booing Goodes, by and large, aren't life's winners. Many of them are from social groups that society has somewhat passed by. Goodes is a winner and has come further than most under his own steam. The challenge to them from him is a reminder of that gap. Hence the self-pitying reaction of such people and their supporters, and the use of anti-racist discourse, twisted around. By that token, Goodes is the one bringing race into it, we're not racist, etc, etc, and so it makes perfect sense to systematically try to mozz the bloke who's saying you are. What could be greater proof of your non-racism that you're prepared to take on this guy, even though he's black! What courage we have!
"Players have to break the isolation the crowd is imposing on Goodes by re-solidarising, and collectively walking off. Both sides, for five minutes, each time mass and targeted booing starts."
That was the dynamic of Goodes' calling out of the 13-year-old fan who called him an "ape". She apologised, and Goodes accepted it. It should have ended there, but for the visuals. She looked like someone who came to the footy to get what a lot of such people want -- the chance to be part of a roaring crowd, a big beast, and to forget for a few hours the sense of crushing inferiority that the world is happy to hand out to many. Their collective rounding on Goodes is their revenge for that stark moment, when a whole series of social relations were laid bare. Put simply, they have never forgiven him for forgiving her, for rising above, in a way that they find impossible to do.
So this whiny, neurotic, honking goes on. It's about race in this instance, but not merely about race. The same thing will happen when gay AFL players start to come out; it will happen if and when women start to play in AFL teams. Goodes is Gillard, Gillard is Nicky Winmar, and so the chain goes back and back. The sound is the great howl of the left-behind, watching as a new world is made around them by the people they could hitherto feel superior to without any effort on their own part.
Much of the animus towards Goodes has been promoted by Andrew Bolt, who has made that whiny white put-down-ness his stock in trade, channelled from a heritage -- Dutch neo-Calvinism -- refined and perfected over a century. It's a post-settler form of white-skin privilege, not asserting its superiority, but perpetually expressing a purported fear of its own annihilation. It's inevitable, too, that Alan Jones would want in, the perpetual hanger-around, a jowly Miss Jean Brodie of a thousand rugby league changing rooms, a man whose identity is so close to the edge that he seems to believe the moment he stops talking he will cease to exist. The booing crowd are their cheer squad. How much more fun this is than actually watching the game!
Yet such behaviour is a genuine dilemma for organisations like the AFL, even if its reaction was the perfect picture of amiable, over-promoted white guys well out of their depth ("Er, I'm not sure the lynching was racist, but I'd urge people to stop it ..."). For until about 25 years ago, most institutions remained immune from the social changes of the 1960s. One by one they've all fallen. Every setting is now a site of social and cultural war. That is a path to liberation, but it's an exhausting one. It's also had institutions like the AFL take on the role of behaviour management that governments have been willing to take on in every area of our lives. Trouble is, faced with a concerted social act like the verbal tarring-and-feathering of Goodes, they can't not do anything. Forty years ago, all they needed to do was provide a pie warmer and a bucket of orange quarters. Now they have to be a mass social-psychological management outfit.
That has two effects, here and elsewhere. The first is to drain all spontaneity and joy out of any social activity, which is what we're well in the middle of now . The second, related to that, is to give condemned social acts such as the booing a cachet and meaning. They now become an assertion against the AFL, the pointyheads, the commentators, on behalf of the unruly and anarchic mob who will make their own laws. While the AFL scrambles around with ideas for more anti-racism training, counsellors, spraying the crowd with Lexapro, etc, etc, they revel in the problem they're creating for them -- especially since the selling point of football is its (illusory) anarchic, unruly nature. There is no doubt -- and this is diagnosis and not excuse -- that the AFL's parallel willingness to become a sort of agent of social/cultural/behavioural change, rather than an outfit that just plays football, has contributed to this miserable, frustrating, joyless social war that actually crowds out the kicking around of a pigskin.
So what is to be done? The short answer, and the general rule for such social wars, is that nothing can be done by using more abstract powers, more behavioural manipulation to create a compliant subject. Such things can only be tackled on the same level that they occur, on the ground. This is an attack on a player by the crowd, and it can only be resisted by the players acting collectively and defining this apparent cultural problem for what it really is, an industrial issue. Adam Goodes is being cut off and mozzed by a crowd who know what its doing: drawing away the psychic energy necessary to play first-grade football to the necessary psychic defence that anyone must put up against such open assault.
Players have to break the isolation the crowd is imposing on Goodes by re-solidarising, and collectively walking off. Both sides, for five minutes, each time mass and targeted booing starts. Doubtless it would be tough to get all 40 players on both sides to come off -- but it would really only take 10 in total, five and five, to throw the game into turmoil. It wouldn't have to happen too much before one side of the crowd sorted the other one out. (I note Race Discrimination Commissioner Tim Soutphommasane has suggested the same thing, although more as a warning to the AFL than as an eager advocacy of turmoil, which is my take. Apparently, no amount of bizarre social phenomena will convince Tim that you can't manage patriotism by having a social-technocratic elite set a list of approved patriotic characteristics and presume people will stick to them.)
Well, Goodes won't be playing this weekend. He may even quit early. When the kid called him an "ape" what he talked about was the degree of hurt. Not anger, hurt. That there is no respect for the simple universality of the game, that anyone can play it, that it is an inherently humanist activity. The crowd booing was an attempt not merely to break his spirit, but to break his heart, a mob's revenge on those who rise above bitterness when they themselves cannot. No one now can turn that around but the players, becoming again workers, comrades and team members rather than commodities and servants to the spectacle."
'I have no new illusions, and I have no old illusions' - Vladimir Putin, Geneva, June 2021
Austinnn wrote:So many good posts on this thread, but i dont honestly hlknow what the point is now: weve all become so entrenched, I don't know who's going to change their mind. So on we go.
I don't think battle lines have been drawn.
Austinnn wrote:For what it's worth: this is my view, worth as little as any of the others, but an opinion nonetheless to be taken or left, not meaning to lecture, berate or pontificate, just there it is:
Your opinion worth is no less valid than anybody elses, in fac t much of you say is balance, well thought out and reasoned
Austinnn wrote:To the people who hate Goodes cos of your judgement on his character, all of our various posts have revealed a little of ours, and I hope you just as passionately judge yourself the same way and maybe boo yourself into submission in the mirror every morning.
Hate is a very strong term. How can you "hate" a person if you don't personally know them or unless they are an infamous criminal or a murderous dictator. Anyone who says they "hate" Adam Goodes rightly needs to look at themselves and ask why?
I know plenty of people I don't really respect because of a range of reasons, many because of their political views.
Do I respect Adam Goodes. As a footballer yes, he is exceptional. Probably hate him when we play them because he usually kills us. As a politician I don't like him or don't respect his divisiveness. If that is a blight on my character in your eyes, well so be it.
Austinnn wrote:To the people who hate him for his supposed crimes against humanity, to be precise the bullying charge unequivocally debunked (pun intended) by Super Duper, I admire your principles, but you've been fooled by rightwing thought leaders. Try recalibrating with honesty.
A bit OTT there. Crimes against humanity? Really, has anyone really said that or is that just hyperbole? In my mind nothing was debunked. The facts are he used a 13 y.o. girl for his political advantage. The news grab (and he knew it would be) was 'The face of racism is a 13 y.o. girl". Appalling lack of judgement in my view. Hanging offence? Of course not, did I lose a bit of respect for Goodes for that? Certainly I did.
Austinnn wrote:For those reacting to the special treatment you feel is given to Goodes and perhaps to aboriginal people or other minority groups, maybe you can apply to the AFL to get a Victim Blaming Whinging Majority Scared Of Losing Our Privilege Round going.
What a good idea, we can then out the people who are really the racists who boo Goodes for his ethnicity and his colour. I agree good idea.
Austinnn wrote:OK that was a bit of a dig. Lots of posters here and even voices outside this forum could help you understand the other side of the argument if you are ready to open your mind. There's no need to feel threatened, no one is saying we can't all thrive, but before it gets to that stage everyone needs to accept history and not just wipe the slate clean. We are all products of history and this context is crucial to finding a way forward.
You see this is where the hectoring begins. The assumption that you know the solution and all arguments are from closed minded people. Many people do not appreciate this arrogant lecturing from someone who has been just as complicit in the situation of aboriginals as everyone else. What have the hectoring mob done to change the situation? Call people racists on Facebook and Twitter using a scattergun approach and preaching from the high moral when you have none.
The assumption that you know what people have or have not done or know about our indigeneous people is ignorant. You accuse others of having a closed mind, when the basis of every point you make is that others are ignorant and have a hidden racist agenda and are just using excuses so to be racist towards Goodes when clearly many not joining in on the orthodox groupthink clearly are not.
Austinnn wrote:To those who don't like Goodes cos of his dirty play, how dirty is he? Steven Baker dirty? Stop fooling yourselves.
Baker never got booed? Baker also got severely punished for his "dirty" play. there is a perception that Goodes, because he plays for the AFL favoured Sydney, that he gets a lighter penalty. That is a perception, and perception is reality for people. You are going to argue others opinion is wrong when you state at the start of your post that yours is just an opinion? Curious.
Austinnn wrote:To those who are in this debate as some kind of reaction against what you imagine is a high and mighty leftie elite controling your thoughts, without this type of challenge to indecency, we as a society would still feel OK with beating and raping our wives, letting industrialists wipe their feet on workers, and taking Aboriginal children from their families. (I'm not comparing, I'm saying that positive change has usually come about by some people telling others what they are thinking should change: we don't all just individually come to the same conclusions at the same time). If you don't care to be told what to do, fine. But at least take the time to consider the points honestly before you dismiss them, its important enough surely.
For a start the labelling is just symptomatic of the current orthodox mindset of the groupthink going on with this. You may want to turn this into a left/right political bunfight, but you are sorely mistaken.
Ask anyone here what my political views are, what my views on aborigines and their "special treatment" is. What I think of the conditions our indegeneous people suffer.
The hypoicricy of the groupthinkers though is incredibly. There is no halfway in your minds. No alternative thinking or views. Everyone is either racist, ignorant or stubborn. You lecture on thinking alternatively, but you will not even consider alternative views on the subject. Only you and your hive are enlightened and not correspondence will be entered into.
You emotional hyperbole claim Goodes "crimes against humanity" just shows you cannot rationally debate this subject.
Austinnn wrote:Finally, to those cunning weasels and muppets using duplicitous arguments, changing the subject, ridiculing the rest of us and introducing irrelevant comparisons to maintain the status quo, you and people like you (Andrew Bolt) are keeping Australia down for your own short term benefit, but all around Australia, people are waking up to you. The better you make it for yourselves, the worse the reaction will be for your kids or grandkids etc. Not a threat or a promise by the way.
More labelling abuse and hyperbole from the elightened ones. Equating people to Andrew Bolt (don't know why you didn't go full Godwin and call us all Nazi's and Hitler would have had the same effect).
Keeping Australia down for short term benefit is it? Not respecting one individual is keeping Australia down. What keeps Australia down is the lack of action for the real issues facing Aboriginal Australia. Child mortality, life expectancy, living conditions, domestic violence, substance abuse, suicide, employment, land rights, the list goes on and on and on.
And I'll give you advice for free. This moral quest to out all of us racists you and your merry crew of zealots have embarked upon will not change anything except to ally your guilt on your impotence and lack of action on real aboriginal issues.
How many aboriginal players were booed on the weekend? Garlett? I saw twitter went crazy calling the Collingwood CS and football spectators as "obviously racist". It was a bit of interplay with the cheersquad and there was absolutely nothing in it.
So here is a bit of reverse labelling. I have heard ex-pats bagging Australia before, Greer, Humphreys, Hughes.
The moral superiority of ex pats telling Australians who live here is and has always been rife with hypocricy.
Joffabouy wrote:Bullying,
paedophiles (apparently, but go figure ),
the right to be a bogan,
the 'chattering classes',
left and right wingers gone crazy,
standing up on national television,
diving,
'invasion day',
"go back to where you came from" (to an indigenous Australian - how's that for dripping irony?),
ape/orang utang/monkey off the back calls,
"I paid my money and I'll say what I want in a free country",
I didn't steal anyone's land or kill anyone and I don't think that my ancestors did either
.......................... the list goes on, doesn't it?
All this to avoid facing up to the basic issue of human frailty preventing some of us from recognising and respecting this land's original inhabitants? Why should that be such a big deal??? Surely our great nation can rise above the Japanese baseball crowds of this world?
From my reading of some previous posts on here, this forum actually once had a poster who was pretty damn excellent at spotting and then deconstructing straw man arguments. And this thread is littered with straw men!
Wish that poster was still posting on here.
For something more light-hearted, don't forget to play my little YouTube video.
It'll go down upon my threatened SS execution - don't do it Mods. Please.
Looks like he is.
Haven'y you been banned yet. Fancy being lectured on racism by an on line troll. mods ...pleeease
This person was banned before because of his racist remarks...weren't you Deemie.
Hi Bunk, that is quite a long and involved reply. Quoting is a pain on my phone so I'll just use italics for my specific replies if that's alright.
Firstly, please remember that while my post was addresses to many different people and therefore in parts not to you, yours was specifically at me.
Bunk_Moreland wrote:
Austinnn wrote:So many good posts on this thread, but i dont honestly hlknow what the point is now: weve all become so entrenched, I don't know who's going to change their mind. So on we go.
I don't think battle lines have been drawn.
Austinnn wrote:For what it's worth: this is my view, worth as little as any of the others, but an opinion nonetheless to be taken or left, not meaning to lecture, berate or pontificate, just there it is:
Your opinion worth is no less valid than anybody elses, in fac t much of you say is balance, well thought out and reasoned
Austinnn wrote:To the people who hate Goodes cos of your judgement on his character, all of our various posts have revealed a little of ours, and I hope you just as passionately judge yourself the same way and maybe boo yourself into submission in the mirror every morning.
Hate is a very strong term. How can you "hate" a person if you don't personally know them or unless they are an infamous criminal or a murderous dictator. Anyone who says they "hate" Adam Goodes rightly needs to look at themselves and ask why?
You're right, the word "hate" was wrong. I meant "dislike" perhaps
I know plenty of people I don't really respect because of a range of reasons, many because of their political views.
Do I respect Adam Goodes. As a footballer yes, he is exceptional. Probably hate him when we play them because he usually kills us. As a politician I don't like him or don't respect his divisiveness. If that is a blight on my character in your eyes, well so be it.
The problem is not with you disliking him, but with loads of people here thinking they have the right to judge him a flog or arrrogant or whatever. Bunk, your posts are a bit more reasonable than that but many just reckon they are justified in assassinating his character and that's what I've talked about there.
Austinnn wrote:To the people who hate him for his supposed crimes against humanity, to be precise the bullying charge unequivocally debunked (pun intended) by Super Duper, I admire your principles, but you've been fooled by rightwing thought leaders. Try recalibrating with honesty.
A bit OTT there. Crimes against humanity? Really, has anyone really said that or is that just hyperbole? In my mind nothing was debunked. The facts are he used a 13 y.o. girl for his political advantage. The news grab (and he knew it would be) was 'The face of racism is a 13 y.o. girl". Appalling lack of judgement in my view. Hanging offence? Of course not, did I lose a bit of respect for Goodes for that? Certainly I did.
What was he supposed to do? He pointed her out when heard her racially abusing him. Why her by the way, and not others? She was one many, so why did he choose her? Maybe her voice cut through a bit more. Used to hearing old blokes coming out with that garbage, but you girls? Probably shocked. When he found out her age, he didn't identidy her, did all he could to get people to leave her alone without dropping what he thought was an important issue, so I'd ask you bunk: put yourself in his shoes after the game. How would you have handled it?
Austinnn wrote:For those reacting to the special treatment you feel is given to Goodes and perhaps to aboriginal people or other minority groups, maybe you can apply to the AFL to get a Victim Blaming Whinging Majority Scared Of Losing Our Privilege Round going.
What a good idea, we can then out the people who are really the racists who boo Goodes for his ethnicity and his colour. I agree good idea.
That's not what I was saying at all. I'm sick of hearing people say things like "Its us Caucasians/Men/Christians/Heterosexuals/Family men who are being discriminated against" or words to that effect. The old "we're just as special as you" argument. it's risable and embarrassing. As someone who fits all the above categories except Christian, I am ready to deal with the way society has kept the other down for too long, even at a cost to my position in society. Dunno what your point about outing racists was.
Austinnn wrote:OK that was a bit of a dig. Lots of posters here and even voices outside this forum could help you understand the other side of the argument if you are ready to open your mind. There's no need to feel threatened, no one is saying we can't all thrive, but before it gets to that stage everyone needs to accept history and not just wipe the slate clean. We are all products of history and this context is crucial to finding a way forward.
You see this is where the hectoring begins. The assumption that you know the solution and all arguments are from closed minded people. Many people do not appreciate this arrogant lecturing from someone who has been just as complicit in the situation of aboriginals as everyone else. What have the hectoring mob done to change the situation? Call people racists on Facebook and Twitter using a scattergun approach and preaching from the high moral when you have none.
The assumption that you know what people have or have not done or know about our indigeneous people is ignorant. You accuse others of having a closed mind, when the basis of every point you make is that others are ignorant and have a hidden racist agenda and are just using excuses so to be racist towards Goodes when clearly many not joining in on the orthodox groupthink clearly are not.
Oh dear. Defensive. I didn't say I have the solution, in fact I went out of my way to state "Lots of posters here and even voices outside this forum" and anyway, this part isn't really directed at you, Bunk, a poster who I know from the past is pretty clued up about Aboriginal affairs. This was an open post to many people, and this point was directed at posts of various people whose attitude to aboriginal community is that now we've accepted they are equal, they should just get on with it. Automatically, like someone can just flick a switch.
Are those communities getting automatically treated like Kew or Eltham? These "equalists" would have you believe that a Person can just wake up, unencumbered by generations of neglect and be just like the rest of us. It can happen, but why can't we go easy on people who don't manage it?
I don't accuse anyone of having a hidden racist agenda. That is you over reacting for a more visual effect. You seem to be lumping me in with a group of racist-hunters who use social media. I don't, so I don't appreciate your generalisation of people who disagree with you, especially as you say you dislike the very same thing. As for your repeated spouting if Orwellian terms, please: take your hand off it. Groupthink my arse. You took the time to treat my post with respect, you surely don't believe that I advocate elimination of dissent?
I agree that we've been just as complicit, and I take my hat off to folks like your wife who've actually done something (not sucking up by the way!) Maybe I can make a difference like them in the future. So, sorry for my "arrogant lecturing" but that's the crux of the issue for me, our attitudes to Aboriginal Australia, and I'm just trying to work through that, just as you do on various issues. What gives any of us the right to tell others what to do? You have, many of us have. So I'll bank that accusation and use it whenever you decide to get on your high horse about something, shall I?
Austinnn wrote:To those who don't like Goodes cos of his dirty play, how dirty is he? Steven Baker dirty? Stop fooling yourselves.
Baker never got booed? Baker also got severely punished for his "dirty" play. there is a perception that Goodes, because he plays for the AFL favoured Sydney, that he gets a lighter penalty. That is a perception, and perception is reality for people. You are going to argue others opinion is wrong when you state at the start of your post that yours is just an opinion? Curious.
My point was people say they don't like dirty players, but are happy to condone them in other circumstances. Steven Baker was a bad comparison as few people boo their own players for being dirty. Think of another dirty player from an opposition team. Did they get the same treatment as Goodes? Fans of rival clubs think Roo gets special treatment, does he get close to the same treatment as Goodes? Who does/did get the same treatment?
So I can't ever ague that an opinion is wrong? Can you? Can any of us? Maybe we should close this forum down then.
Austinnn wrote:To those who are in this debate as some kind of reaction against what you imagine is a high and mighty leftie elite controling your thoughts, without this type of challenge to indecency, we as a society would still feel OK with beating and raping our wives, letting industrialists wipe their feet on workers, and taking Aboriginal children from their families. (I'm not comparing, I'm saying that positive change has usually come about by some people telling others what they are thinking should change: we don't all just individually come to the same conclusions at the same time). If you don't care to be told what to do, fine. But at least take the time to consider the points honestly before you dismiss them, its important enough surely.
For a start the labelling is just symptomatic of the current orthodox mindset of the groupthink going on with this. You may want to turn this into a left/right political bunfight, but you are sorely mistaken.
Ask anyone here what my political views are, what my views on aborigines and their "special treatment" is. What I think of the conditions our indegeneous people suffer.
The hypoicricy of the groupthinkers though is incredibly. There is no halfway in your minds. No alternative thinking or views. Everyone is either racist, ignorant or stubborn. You lecture on thinking alternatively, but you will not even consider alternative views on the subject. Only you and your hive are enlightened and not correspondence will be entered into.
You emotional hyperbole claim Goodes "crimes against humanity" just shows you cannot rationally debate this subject.
You're starting to unravel a bit here, I might even go as far as to say getting on your high horse. (Love the visuals of that expression)
I'm not labeling anyone, can't even see where you get that from. Leftie elite? That is me reacting to posts using terms just like that to denigrate people like me, Con and others who are supportive of Adam Goodes. So I react to a line of thinking, I now espouse that line of thinking? "Curious".
Your political leanings are well known, and in this thread and others your compassion for the aboriginal community shines through. (Not sucking up here either), so don't get defensive. This is more for the " I'm sick of city slickers and chattering classes telling me what I can and can't do" type of post. For you, substitute "hivemind groupthink enlightened ones and zealots" for "leftie elite": do those labels look familiar?
As for not being able to debate this topic rationally, I think I can and have. That's your opinion, so be it. Crimes against humanity sounds a bit rough like a North Korean regime, so would you take crimes against decency? Ace gave us a list of crimes in order of severity and paedophilia was number one, number two was bullying. He claimed Goodes was between the two. Is that not a severe enough claim? I don't think it's hyperbole, more like a reaction to hyperbole.
Austinnn wrote:Finally, to those cunning weasels and muppets using duplicitous arguments, changing the subject, ridiculing the rest of us and introducing irrelevant comparisons to maintain the status quo, you and people like you (Andrew Bolt) are keeping Australia down for your own short term benefit, but all around Australia, people are waking up to you. The better you make it for yourselves, the worse the reaction will be for your kids or grandkids etc. Not a threat or a promise by the way.
More labelling abuse and hyperbole from the elightened ones. Equating people to Andrew Bolt (don't know why you didn't go full Godwin and call us all Nazi's and Hitler would have had the same effect).
Ive already addressed the ironly of the first sentence. Bolt certainly has a Godwin-esque effect these days. I was more addressing people like him who are able to influence the minds of others to do their bidding and avoid getting their own hands dirty. Not you.
Keeping Australia down for short term benefit is it? Not respecting one individual is keeping Australia down. What keeps Australia down is the lack of action for the real issues facing Aboriginal Australia. Child mortality, life expectancy, living conditions, domestic violence, substance abuse, suicide, employment, land rights, the list goes on and on and on.
It's not about Adam Goodes. Our treatment of Adam Goodes is a symptom of something bigger that is keeping Australia down, and its that which I feel is at the heart of of Bolt and a couple of posters here, again not you. Lots of difficult issues. It's tough to look at them all, which is one reason why this thread is entering its 30th page. Your second point I totally agree with.
And I'll give you advice for free. This moral quest to out all of us racists you and your merry crew of zealots have embarked upon will not change anything except to ally your guilt on your impotence and lack of action on real aboriginal issues.
Sadly, no argument from me here either. Thanks for bumming me out. Maybe we should all stop talking and actually do something. It doesn't ally my guilt don't worry. Well a bit. It's good to at least acknowledge the problem. That is exactly what many here (and Bolt, and the ghost of Adolf Hitler) don't want us to do.
How many aboriginal players were booed on the weekend? Garlett? I saw twitter went crazy calling the Collingwood CS and football spectators as "obviously racist". It was a bit of interplay with the cheersquad and there was absolutely nothing in it.
Didn't see any of it, so can't comment.
So here is a bit of reverse labelling. I have heard ex-pats bagging Australia before, Greer, Humphreys, Hughes.
The moral superiority of ex pats telling Australians who live here is and has always been rife with hypocricy.
Perhaps. Doesn't make what they are saying wrong though. I think you are a hypocrite too. I still think a lot if what you say is useful and correct. Hypocrisy has a bad name. We're all conflicted.
See nice to be labelled with no basis isn't it?
I can take it from you better than other dimmer posters, strangely. I respect your words more I suppose.
Last edited by Austinnn on Tue 04 Aug 2015 7:17am, edited 4 times in total.
Just My Opinion
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