the view from the bridge

[ListManager]

Did anyone say...Kim Wilde?

Listen here pal, if you have nothing of value to post then P155 off. Our club is in dire financial trouble and you don't even realize. What is this Kim Wilde crap going to achieve other than inflaming this post?

[Scollop]

If the Saints continue to dish up countless putrid efforts when it comes to marquee games it is not only embarassing but it is the main reason we'll continue to fall behind financially. The board and administration responsible for appointing AND the board responsible for extending Richo's tenure need to stand down during the course of this year.

They preferred to appoint an untried 'nice guy' who'd be easy to manage, rather than a proven head coach who may have caused some contraversy and conflict. What's wrong with aiming high and trying to win a friggin flag? Sure Williams wouldn't have guaranteed anything, but I guarantee you we wouldn't be looking at a rebuild five years into his tenure

Same thing happened when Ross Lyon signed on to Freo...we went for the safe option instead of going for broke and signing up a guy who already had a proven record and success as a premiership winning coach... we didn't want to upset some of our precious players...in the meantime

Kim is a good distraction for the rest of us...while you work on your debt reduction solutions

[samoht]

Same thing happened when Ross Lyon signed on to Freo...we went for the safe option instead of going for broke and signing up a guy who already had a proven record and success as a premiership winning coach... we didn't want to upset some of our precious players...in the meantime

Malthouse was a multi-premiership winning coach - how did he go at Carlton?

[Scollop]

Same thing happened when Ross Lyon signed on to Freo...we went for the safe option instead of going for broke and signing up a guy who already had a proven record and success as a premiership winning coach... we didn't want to upset some of our precious players...in the meantime

Malthouse was a multi-premiership winning coach - how did he go at Carlton?

They had shithouse recruiters before he got there

We had a shithot list so we just needed the right coach who knew the finals caper and knew what it took to go all the way

[samoht]

Same thing happened when Ross Lyon signed on to Freo...we went for the safe option instead of going for broke and signing up a guy who already had a proven record and success as a premiership winning coach... we didn't want to upset some of our precious players...in the meantime

Malthouse was a multi-premiership winning coach - how did he go at Carlton?

They had shithouse recruiters before he got there

We had a shithot list so we just needed the right coach who knew the finals caper and knew what it took to go all the way

Our list is far from perfect, not even middling, and even Lethlean/Gallagher acknowledged this and spoke openly about our deficiencies (that our list was overweight in certain areas and underweight in others) and the need to get the balance right. Some teams like North probably matched up well against us and exploited our list deficiencies/inbalances (e.g., North have a very good ruckman - we don't, etc...)

I watched an old 1997 game vs Hawthorn yesterday (Stan Alves was our coach - he hadn't been shown the door just yet) - and we had a team with Harvey, Joel Smith, Burke, Aussie Jones, Winmar, Peckett and Lappin all running riot -- and Everitt who was alternating in the ruck (with vidovic), kicked 5 goals. I think Loewe kicked 3 or 4 (and Heatley kicked 3 or 4). That was a strong and balanced team - don't confuse what we have now with that team.
That talented and balanced 1997 St Kilda side would utterly destroy our current St Kilda team. They'd run rings around it.
Harvey's delivery to our forwards and even his handballs had to be seen to be believed. Joel Smith, Aussie, Peckett, Lappin, Winmar and Harvey all running, side stepping and bouncing the ball at will, and their play-making skills - it's exciting, next-level stuff.
I think we've forgotten what "great" and "A grade" looks like.

The point is, even the three time premiership winning coach, Malthouse, couldn't overcome a shithouse (Carlton) list and bad recruiting. So good recruiting and building a strong list is way more important - which is exactly my point (as you know)!
Also, with our list being what it is (plus with the injuries last year) - how can we say for certain that it's the coach's fault? I'm not an AR fan (or enemy, for that matter), but I'm also not a fan of sacking coaches, which is St Kilda's customary go-to solution for everything.
Let's take the wait and see approach - we can always sack the coach after round 6 next year, if we're at 1-5 (or 2-4, or whatever), if that will solve anything (although, I notice super-duper coach Malthouse was sacked after round 8, when Carlton was 1-7).

[desertsaint]

malthouse ar carlton was like blight at saints and pagan at carlton - past their use by date. i reckon richo is not past his, but he is mediocre and his ability is well below theirs. a classic case of an assistant coach that was given a shot and wasn't up to it.

[samoht]

malthouse ar carlton was like blight at saints and pagan at carlton - past their use by date. i reckon richo is not past his, but he is mediocre and his ability is well below theirs. a classic case of an assistant coach that was given a shot and wasn't up to it.

It's much more to do with the lists - the lists have their ups and downs and use by dates. Pagan was past his use by date when Carey was past his - and both Malthouse and Pagan were pushing sh1t uphill at Carlton - given the list.

You can recruit your way to a good list, with some smart recruiting over many years, and improve your W/L results that way - but no coach can do anything with a poor list - and our list is average at best - it has its deficiencies as Gallagher duly pointed out.

How do we explain the 17-5 Freo season in 2015 with the 4-18 freo season in 2016 - did RL get to his use by date in just one year?
How did he go from a stellar coach one year to a sh1t coach the very next?
Who knows what the actual reasons are, but it's obviously too simplistic and wrong to say that how a team fares has all to do with the coach -(it's like saying that the sun rises and sets over the coach, that they are the be all and end all).
There are much bigger factors at play - that overwhelm what the coach (any coach) themselves can bring and do. That's obvious (to me, anyway).

[Cairnsman]

malthouse ar carlton was like blight at saints and pagan at carlton - past their use by date. i reckon richo is not past his, but he is mediocre and his ability is well below theirs. a classic case of an assistant coach that was given a shot and wasn't up to it.

It's much more to do with the lists - the lists have their ups and downs and use by dates. Pagan was past his use by date when Carey was past his - and both Malthouse and Pagan were pushing sh1t uphill at Carlton - given the list.

You can recruit your way to a good list, with some smart recruiting over many years, and improve your W/L results that way - but no coach can do anything with a poor list - and our list is average at best - it has its deficiencies as Gallagher duly pointed out.

How do we explain the 17-5 Freo season in 2015 with the 4-18 freo season in 2016 - did RL get to his use by date in just one year?
How did he go from a stellar coach one year to a sh1t coach the very next? (Was it due to the retirement of Pavlich and the leadership void that left - what year did he retire?... and does this mean that Fyfe sucks as a leader?)

Who knows what the actual reasons are, but it's obviously too simplistic and wrong to say that how a team fares has all to do with the coach -(it's like saying that the sun rises and sets over the coach, that they are the be all and end all).
There are much bigger factors at play - that overwhelm what the coach (any coach) themselves can bring and do. That's obvious (to me, anyway).

And I think we are seeing a paradigm shift or evolution in the setup of organisational structures at professional sporting clubs. A "head" coach being the person that is the exclusive holder of knowledge and expertise and who is "accountable" for all things that go wrong is a flawed management concept, it's outdated. It's completely ridiculous to have so much of an organisation's IP anchored to an individual who can be scapegoated with the traditional sacking thereby deflecting attention away from other areas or individuals that may also not be performing correctly. It's such a disruptive and distracting lever to pull on its own and consumes unnecessary resources that could otherwise be directed towards evaluating and improving all of the parts not performing correctly.

Simon Lethlean clearly felt one of the parts not working correctly at the club was the org structure and I'm hoping we are moving to a club that is not defined by a head coach and the head coach is just a role player within a structure that executes systems and procedures owned by the club.

[SaintPav]

Christ you love your weasel words, Cairnsman.

Where have you been? It's not a ”paradigm shift” whatever that means. It's been an incremental shift over the last 15 years or so.

For someone who is from corporate AFL and has no experience at AFL club land, Lethlean has too much power at St Kilda for my liking. It looks like he is calling all the shots which isn't a good thing. Who the hell is going to rein him in if he starts f****** up, which is a distinct possibility because it doesn't look like our Mr nice guy CEO is up to it.

[dragit]

Regardless of how the org chart is structured up, Richo will be gone very shortly just like the rest of the footy department and recruiting team. No doubt he'd be gone already if we'd waited rather than prematurely extending the contract.

The head coach is still ultimately responsible for W/L, structure, game plans, development, morale, culture etc... that's why they earn big bucks.

[Cairnsman]

Regardless of how the org chart is structured up, Richo will be gone very shortly just like the rest of the footy department and recruiting team. No doubt he'd be gone already if we'd waited before prematurely extending the contract.

The head coach is still ultimately responsible for W/L, structure, game plans, development, morale, culture etc... that's why they earn big bucks.

So our club should be structured up so one man is accountable for almost everything, yep makes sense, I suppose it takes the pressure of everyone else at the club to perform and be accountable.

stay angry!

[Cairnsman]

Christ you love your weasel words, Cairnsman.

Where have you been? It's not a ”paradigm shift” whatever that means. It's been an incremental shift over the last 15 years or so.

For someone who is from corporate AFL and has no experience at AFL club land, Lethlean has too much power at St Kilda for my liking. It looks like he is calling all the shots which isn't a good thing. Who the hell is going to rein him in if he starts f****** up, which is a distinct possibility because it doesn't look like our Mr nice guy CEO is up to it.

Christ...

[magnifisaint]

malthouse ar carlton was like blight at saints and pagan at carlton - past their use by date. i reckon richo is not past his, but he is mediocre and his ability is well below theirs. a classic case of an assistant coach that was given a shot and wasn't up to it.

Yeah what about Bolton. What about Hardwick. I really don't think those two are any good. Players make coaches not the other way around. Take Martin, Rance, Cotchin and Riewoldt out of Richmond and they wouldn't have made the finals in their premiership year. Richo may not be great but he hasn't been given a great list to work with.

[dragit]

I'm not angry, just disappointed... I'm glad you're content though mate

500k - 1 mil per year with no real accountability, sounds like a good gig.

[samoht]

Maybe,we need to follow our nice-guy CEO's lead, bury the anger/disappointment and be zen with the world and Let hlean take us to new heights?

[Cairnsman]

I'm not angry, just disappointed... I'm glad you're content though mate

500k - 1 mil per year with no real accountability, sounds like a good gig.

got any free thoughts?

[dragit]

I'm not angry, just disappointed... I'm glad you're content though mate

500k - 1 mil per year with no real accountability, sounds like a good gig.

got any free thoughts?

They're all free, have you got anything interesting to say?

Maybe you can give us another psychology catch phrase that you don't understand?

[dragit]

Where did you study psychology and philosophy Cairnsman? Princeton & Stanford?

[Cairnsman]

Where did you study psychology and philosophy Cairnsman? Princeton & Stanford?

it's ok if you don't have any, but you will remain irrelevant in the discussion if just keep channelling your inner Con and rubbishing others without putting up arguments other than ones that can be deconstructed by a primary school student.

[desertsaint]

malthouse ar carlton was like blight at saints and pagan at carlton - past their use by date. i reckon richo is not past his, but he is mediocre and his ability is well below theirs. a classic case of an assistant coach that was given a shot and wasn't up to it.

Yeah what about Bolton. What about Hardwick. I really don't think those two are any good. Players make coaches not the other way around. Take Martin, Rance, Cotchin and Riewoldt out of Richmond and they wouldn't have made the finals in their premiership year. Richo may not be great but he hasn't been given a great list to work with.

bolton hasn't shown if he is or isnt a good coach, and the list is young. we'll know in a year or two, if he lasts. hardwick led the tigers into finals from being a basketcase. had one poor year then the flag. richo has had five years. how long do you want to give him?
no one thinks the coach is the main thing, but he is a major part of success or lack thereof, as is the list. i think we are poor in both aspects, hence our position.

[Cairnsman]

malthouse ar carlton was like blight at saints and pagan at carlton - past their use by date. i reckon richo is not past his, but he is mediocre and his ability is well below theirs. a classic case of an assistant coach that was given a shot and wasn't up to it.

Yeah what about Bolton. What about Hardwick. I really don't think those two are any good. Players make coaches not the other way around. Take Martin, Rance, Cotchin and Riewoldt out of Richmond and they wouldn't have made the finals in their premiership year. Richo may not be great but he hasn't been given a great list to work with.

bolton hasn't shown if he is or isnt a good coach, and the list is young. we'll know in a year or two, if he lasts. hardwick led the tigers into finals from being a basketcase. had one poor year then the flag. richo has had five years. how long do you want to give him?
no one thinks the coach is the main thing, but he is a major part of success or lack thereof, as is the list. i think we are poor in both aspects, hence our position.

One more year to answer your question. It made complete sense to give Alan another year based on the positive signs from 2016 and 2017 and the lack of access to your best 22 during team selection which was due to a significant injury list and the departure of significant experience at the end of 2017 which also created a problem with on-field leadership. This was evident in the number of games where we where in the contest and then the game was taken away from us very quickly by the opposition, usually within under 5 minutes, and frequently at the end of a quarter, the last 5 minutes of 2nd quarters seemed to be a pattern.

The club has obviously gone part way to addressing the leadership issue with the recruitment of DH and well a bit of luck will be needed on the injury list management.

Pull all of those threads together and one more year should give a clearer indication on whether Alan is going to make it.

I'm guessing/predicting that if we have a dream run with injury and the game plan isn't changed too dramatically then finals could be a real possibility.

Part of this guess is based on all of the new players getting a taste of things in 2018 and pushing hard for selection in 2019 which will be a sweet return on investment for blooding many players in 2018 that ironically otherwise wouldn't have got a run without so many injuries.

I can't wait for round 6.

[dragit]

Where did you study psychology and philosophy Cairnsman? Princeton & Stanford?

it's ok if you don't have any, but you will remain irrelevant in the discussion if just keep channelling your inner Con and rubbishing others without putting up arguments other than ones that can be deconstructed by a primary school student.

Primary school is the answer to your education?, no probs.

You really are a cute little thing, accusing people of 'groupthink' and having no 'freethought' and in the same breath having the audacity to claim that people with opposing views to yours are irrelevant. Back to school for you little man and I don't want to hear from you till all of your homework is finished.

Maybe you could google 'irony' for your homework.

Why would anyone's views be considered irrelevant? It's a fan forum, not the PR machine of the club.

Con may have been rude and over-stepped the mark through passion, but he was right on a lot of things and much more interesting than some nodding lemming club mouthpiece - in my opinion.

[Cairnsman]

Where did you study psychology and philosophy Cairnsman? Princeton & Stanford?

it's ok if you don't have any, but you will remain irrelevant in the discussion if just keep channelling your inner Con and rubbishing others without putting up arguments other than ones that can be deconstructed by a primary school student.

Primary school is the answer to your education?, no probs.

You really are a cute little thing, accusing people of 'groupthink' and having no 'freethought' and in the same breath having the audacity to claim that people with opposing views to yours are irrelevant. Back to school for you little man and I don't want to hear from you till all of your homework is finished.

Why would anyone's views be considered irrelevant? It's a fan forum, not the PR machine of the club.

Con may have been rude and over-stepped the mark through passion, but he was right on a lot of things and much more interesting than some nodding lemming club mouthpiece - in my opinion.

Just to be clear, I welcome opposing views to mine, I enjoy and welcome the discussion, debate, testing and the challenging of all ideas, opinions, claims and statements. But it's difficult when you put up logic like, "he had us in the flag mix" and "we only won 4 games" and I predicted we'd finish 14th so validate me, and "it's why he's on the big bucks", and he should be accountable for everything that is wrong at the club. And Freeman didn't get picked up by another club, I'm guessing the new boss came in and made a call on it that overturned decisions made before he got to the club, turns out it was the right decision, sometimes a fresh set of eyes is helpful.

I can't wait for round 6.

[dragit]

Just to be clear, I welcome opposing views to mine

It honestly doesn't seem like it with all this 'groupthink' rubbish that you keep awkwardly spinning.

But it's difficult when you put up logic like, "he had us in the flag mix" and "we only won 4 games" and I predicted we'd finish 14th so validate me

The logic doesn't seem that hard of a concept to grasp, my opinion is that Cho has a really poor grasp of the job and this is reflected in his ruminations on the state of the list… and to be fair I only referenced my prediction of 14th after you accused me of being captain hindsight, I couldn't care less if I got that right or not … it seemed pretty obvious to a pleb like me that our list wasn't going to play a part in September even wihjout big injury concerns.

I hold the head coach accountable for the development of our young players, our game style, selection, culture, and the general way we go about playing - all putrid in Alan's 5th season IMO and 4 wins would validate this concern.

Freeman didn't get re-drafted that is not point of contention, but the concern I had was with him being dropped after performing reasonably well while others around him had been awful for weeks, particularly when we had absolutely nothing to play for. In 1.5 games his numbers were far better than half of our list so it seemed like a strange bench and dropping to me.

turns out it was the right decision,

It doesn't become a correct decision until the last players we drafted become better footballers than Freeman was.

Why are you so excited about round 6?

[samoht]

What was putrid were the injuries - but we got great development out of quite a few players - Austin , Steele (break-out year), Rice, McKenzie, Long was starting to show something after returning from injury, same with Acres.

Membrey , Steele, Ross, Roberton, Webster all bloomed and had their breakout seasons under AR.
Acres is set to have his breakout year in 2019 - as long as he staves off injury.

Steele, in fact, credited his breakout form to the coach, who he said challanged him by assigning him a run-with role against the top midfielders.

Our list is deficient and lacks balance - as Gallagher put it, it is "overweight" in some areas and "underweight" in others. I trust Gallagher's assessment, and agree with him, and I know a coach can only do "so much" with our list.
Last year, given our injuries and a hard draw, "so much" amounted to 4 and a half wins.

If we have a good run with injuries, we're probably an 11 -12 win team at best- and I note that AR had a couple of 50% W/L seasons in 2016, 2017.

The 2016 season was a big turn-around season for us - no-one expected it. What did we think of AR then (and what did we think of RL with his 4 win season in 2016, after Freo were a minor premier in 2015)?

To improve our list we need an A grade ruckman (ditch our untradeable F grade ruckmen), a reliable tall forward/power forward (who can kick his 2 or 3 goals), and an elite-skilled outside midfielder (or preferably two), and for Roberton to come back as good as new - that's it.
We need to stop blaming/scapegoating the coach for everything (the parade of scapegoated coaches at st Kilda has been a running joke and red herring, and has got us nowhere) and start recruiting what we need - focus on that.That's how you improve.