2013 Saints Fixture

[Zed]

one of the better draws we have had in recent years.

Of the teams we play twice, Richmond and Carlton are roughly on the same level as us and if we are a half decent team, then we should be able to beat them at least once each. Weve had a reasonable record against the never easy Sydney Swans in recent years - but hard to see us beating them twice. Gold Coast should be 2 wins - however getting them at home in Round 1 is probably the least preferable time for us (GC wont have lost any games and will fancy themselves - like Port last year). Fremantle will be tough given Lyons knowledge of much of our list and our weaknesses, however must be a chance at home.

I'll stand by my earlier predictions that next year is our "bottom out year", but having said that I expect we will finish somewhere between 7 & 12.

[desertsaint]

Aside from eight games outside of Melbourne (one a home game, and one at sleepy hollow), and eight twilight games. It's a pretty good fix. The twilight games hurt our wallets, but it could be worse. The dogs see collingwood play 7 Friday night games and they get zilch.
Zilch chance to promote themselves on fta's big night.
Fair dinkum the afl board need to go. It's a non-profit organization there to promote the game and the clubs. Instead they actively pursue a policy that ruins certain clubs which they keep on a feed, able to force their hand at their whim. And it actively promotes an elite few in Melbourne. Bottom line is, the afl is ensuring that when the time is ripe several Melbourne clubs will be killed off and /or merged. I hope we won't be one of them.

What's the first priority of a sporting organization? Is it to ensure equity between participants, an even playing field?
or is it to increase revenue at all costs hoping that advertising and new clubs grows the game and changes the culture of the game from a community based institution into a corporate dog eat dog entertainment package?

[plugger66]

Aside from eight games outside of Melbourne (one a home game, and one at sleepy hollow), and eight twilight games. It's a pretty good fix. The twilight games hurt our wallets, but it could be worse. The dogs see collingwood play 7 Friday night games and they get zilch.
Zilch chance to promote themselves on fta's big night.
Fair dinkum the afl board need to go. It's a non-profit organization there to promote the game and the clubs. Instead they actively pursue a policy that ruins certain clubs which they keep on a feed, able to force their hand at their whim. And it actively promotes an elite few in Melbourne. Bottom line is, the afl is ensuring that when the time is ripe several Melbourne clubs will be killed off and /or merged. I hope we won't be one of them.

What's the first priority of a sporting organization? Is it to ensure equity between participants, an even playing field?
or is it to increase revenue at all costs hoping that advertising and new clubs grows the game and changes the culture of the game from a community based institution into a corporate dog eat dog entertainment package?

If this AFL board go a new one will come in with exactly the same ideas or we could get some new people who want a few Victorian clubs to go. The best way to get rid of Victorian clubs is to get the TV rights lower next time. The best way to do that is to make Friday all equal for every club.

Tell me the AFL/VFL board that has been good for the game in your opinion?

[saintbrat]

this list is interesting-- although it does say we don't have a 5 day break....leading into NZ
http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/ ... fault.aspx

also unlike this year at least Victorians/melbournians will see the saints during June- ..

[saintspremiers]

Round 17 first day game in Melbourne.

Stinks.

7 interstate games plus Geelong is crap also.

And two home games at the G is no good either.

4 Sunday Twlight sucks also.

Not happy jan.

Its all about you. I like the draw so now its about me. The less day games the better. Harden your kids up. late nioghyts wont effect them in a years time let alone 10.

They don't sleep in. Makes then pretty ratty the next day. Not good for me lol!

[samuraisaint]

"VERDICT
St Kilda will travel far and wide in 2013, with seven matches outside Victoria, including a home match in New Zealand. The Saints have a comfortable enough fixture though, with two games against Richmond, Carlton, the Sydney Swans, Gold Coast and Fremantle. There are six short breaks, including back-to-back between rounds seven and nine. The Saints will feature in three Friday night games, and eight twilight games (four Saturday, four Sunday).

CLUB HIGHLIGHTS
Will kick off the season against Gold Coast on Saturday night at Metricon Stadium.
Seven matches to be played outside Victoria, including a round three appearance at Manuka Oval in Canberra against GWS.
To play a home match against the Sydney Swans on Anzac Day in round five at Westpac Stadium in Wellington, New Zealand - the first-ever match for premiership points outside Australia.
Will again host a Monday night match, against Carlton at Etihad Stadium in round seven, post-Mother's Day.
To feature on the Friday night stage on three occasions, two of them home games, against Richmond at the MCG in round two and Hawthorn at Etihad Stadium in round 20.
Must face only two of the 2012 finalists twice - Sydney Swans and Geelong."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/ ... fault.aspx

They should have looked harder - we play three of the finalists from this year twice - unless Freo don't count

[desertsaint]

Tell me the AFL/VFL board that has been good for the game in your opinion?

the ones that managed to keep a stable competition from 1925 until the relocation of south, and made it the premier comp in the country, despite competition from sa and wa.
The new mob have a monopoly and still we have seen fitzroy die, with others on perennial life support. The big clubs are now given much greater access to money than the smaller clubs.
Imagine an organization not giving you access to markets that they happily give your rivals because that way they can make more money for themselves. To compensate they give you just enough to survive, despite the fact that they are using you to pay off their own assets. They can at any moment pull the plug based on your failure to compete with the bigger clubs - who are now disproportionately much bigger as a direct result of the organizations own discriminatory practices.

You argue it's all about the money - piffle - it's all about the game - our game. A sport. And a sport on a deliberately uneven playing field is not a sport proper - it's simply become entertainment. They are selling its soul and reaping the rewards. You are looking at it from a short term view. Given a fair playing field the money will ebb and flow amongst clubs over a longer term. If the poorer clubs were in the public eye and more attractive to new supporters (and remember how many new potential supporters arrive in this country every year) they could improve their base and compete at a more even level. Instead the afl have made it an impossibility Because they don't want short term loss. They simply want to earn more and more revenue every year.
As I said, it means it is a certainty clubs will go, and the sad thing is those clubs are deliberately being kept under heel for that very moment when they have outlived their usefulness and something newer and prettier turns up.
You seem to believe the afl is doing everything in their power to keep these clubs afloat. They are most patently not.

[stevie]

That will make it 4 years in a row we play the Lions up here

[OneEyedSainter77]

Well I've got to say that is miles better than I expected upon learning we had six interstate plus nz plus Geelong.

The spread is terrific, ensuring we have no back to back travel - and in addition we only have one back to back six day break. A multitude of night/twilight games as usual which doesn't really bother me and a soft start and middle and two games to finish at Etihad. Expecting a similar season to this year - might get one or two more wins with this draw.

Stoked we play hawthorn, collngwood, port and west coast at Etihad as opposed to away - would have preferred to avoid Sydney away as well and could do without another trip to Gabba. Fine with going to feeling and rapt with two cracks at Richmond and Carlton - we'll get a terrific indication of exactly where we are at.

All in all, pretty pleased with that.

[plugger66]

Tell me the AFL/VFL board that has been good for the game in your opinion?

the ones that managed to keep a stable competition from 1925 until the relocation of south, and made it the premier comp in the country, despite competition from sa and wa.
The new mob have a monopoly and still we have seen fitzroy die, with others on perennial life support. The big clubs are now given much greater access to money than the smaller clubs.
Imagine an organization not giving you access to markets that they happily give your rivals because that way they can make more money for themselves. To compensate they give you just enough to survive, despite the fact that they are using you to pay off their own assets. They can at any moment pull the plug based on your failure to compete with the bigger clubs - who are now disproportionately much bigger as a direct result of the organizations own discriminatory practices.

You argue it's all about the money - piffle - it's all about the game - our game. A sport. And a sport on a deliberately uneven playing field is not a sport proper - it's simply become entertainment. They are selling its soul and reaping the rewards. You are looking at it from a short term view. Given a fair playing field the money will ebb and flow amongst clubs over a longer term. If the poorer clubs were in the public eye and more attractive to new supporters (and remember how many new potential supporters arrive in this country every year) they could improve their base and compete at a more even level. Instead the afl have made it an impossibility Because they don't want short term loss. They simply want to earn more and more revenue every year.
As I said, it means it is a certainty clubs will go, and the sad thing is those clubs are deliberately being kept under heel for that very moment when they have outlived their usefulness and something newer and prettier turns up.
You seem to believe the afl is doing everything in their power to keep these clubs afloat. They are most patently not.

Please argue with the truth. The current board had nothing to do with Fitzroy going and when South went to Sydney they were stuffed as was many sides at that period. And the president of the AFL at the time was hated just like many hate AD now. And it is about the money. If you want it to be about the game follow the Ammos. And if it isnt about the money then clubs will go. Channel 7 pay huge money because they want certain games on Friday night. This does help WB and Melbourne because they get dividends from the money paid.

And the current board has done more to support clubs than any board since South went to Sydney. It is emotive to say clubs will go but baseless.

[SinCitySainter]

The AFL cannot afford clubs to go unless they relace them with other clubs. The big TV money is dependent upon the number of games played therefore they need the 18 teams.
Less teams less money made from TV. Gate receipts are only important to clubs as the amount raised is a trifling figure compared to the TV revenue.
The only viable option is to move clubs but even then propping up North in Melbourne would be less of a financial drain than moving them to Far North Queensland and trying to start them up there.
So yes the AFL will continue to make the rich richer and the poor poorer but will also keep funding the poorer clubs while doing so.
The one thing that will start to become more evident is the devide between the rich and the poor with the poorer clubs becoming less and less competative until we end up with a virtual two tier comp.

[desertsaint]

Tell me the AFL/VFL board that has been good for the game in your opinion?

the ones that managed to keep a stable competition from 1925 until the relocation of south, and made it the premier comp in the country, despite competition from sa and wa.
The new mob have a monopoly and still we have seen fitzroy die, with others on perennial life support. The big clubs are now given much greater access to money than the smaller clubs.
Imagine an organization not giving you access to markets that they happily give your rivals because that way they can make more money for themselves. To compensate they give you just enough to survive, despite the fact that they are using you to pay off their own assets. They can at any moment pull the plug based on your failure to compete with the bigger clubs - who are now disproportionately much bigger as a direct result of the organizations own discriminatory practices.

You argue it's all about the money - piffle - it's all about the game - our game. A sport. And a sport on a deliberately uneven playing field is not a sport proper - it's simply become entertainment. They are selling its soul and reaping the rewards. You are looking at it from a short term view. Given a fair playing field the money will ebb and flow amongst clubs over a longer term. If the poorer clubs were in the public eye and more attractive to new supporters (and remember how many new potential supporters arrive in this country every year) they could improve their base and compete at a more even level. Instead the afl have made it an impossibility Because they don't want short term loss. They simply want to earn more and more revenue every year.
As I said, it means it is a certainty clubs will go, and the sad thing is those clubs are deliberately being kept under heel for that very moment when they have outlived their usefulness and something newer and prettier turns up.
You seem to believe the afl is doing everything in their power to keep these clubs afloat. They are most patently not.

Please argue with the truth. The current board had nothing to do with Fitzroy going and when South went to Sydney they were stuffed as was many sides at that period. And the president of the AFL at the time was hated just like many hate AD now. And it is about the money. If you want it to be about the game follow the Ammos. And if it isnt about the money then clubs will go. Channel 7 pay huge money because they want certain games on Friday night. This does help WB and Melbourne because they get dividends from the money paid.

And the current board has done more to support clubs than any board since South went to Sydney. It is emotive to say clubs will go but baseless.

So tell me plugger, under the current system, how does a team like footscray improve? How does it attract new support?
If you had two children would you plough all your resources into the one that had more friends and did better at school and sport, and was more likely to succeed in life, figuring the money could then be used to prop up the other's welfare payments?
That's what the afl are doing. Deliberately cutting opportunities from certain clubs in order to improve the overall wealth.
Since the monopoly (the afl) we have lost a club, and if you don't believe more are going then you are sadly mistaken. It is the afl administration I have a beef with - not just the current mob. The minute they decided to turn the vfl into a national comp it was always going to be about the money, no doubt, and Melbourne clubs were always going to fold eventually.
But give those smaller clubs a chance to build. It's quite simply the old adage of teaching a man to fish, rather than giving him one. What should have happened is that the afl should have been a brand new competition. The wafl, vfl, and sanfl, could have fed into it. Right now all vfl clubs could be still playing in an even competition in Victoria - just as the other clubs are. None of them have disappeared.
In twenty years the saints won't exist as st kilda, neither will footscray, north, and a couple of others. The afl already tried their darndest to relocate north, and are now screwing them as punishment and hoping to force their hand. And of course they will. The very same welfare mentality of forcing clubs to live on handouts has been brought up again by the swans and the afl will meet with clubs to discuss the problem. It's a bit like a country choosing to give out welfare, but not giving access to training or work opportunity, then criticising those in the system for not bettering themselves. Next they simply cut the welfare.

[Batnoe]

the first 8 weeks is going to drain the sh!t out of my bank account.

what bank account

Dads

[plugger66]

the ones that managed to keep a stable competition from 1925 until the relocation of south, and made it the premier comp in the country, despite competition from sa and wa.
The new mob have a monopoly and still we have seen fitzroy die, with others on perennial life support. The big clubs are now given much greater access to money than the smaller clubs.
Imagine an organization not giving you access to markets that they happily give your rivals because that way they can make more money for themselves. To compensate they give you just enough to survive, despite the fact that they are using you to pay off their own assets. They can at any moment pull the plug based on your failure to compete with the bigger clubs - who are now disproportionately much bigger as a direct result of the organizations own discriminatory practices.

You argue it's all about the money - piffle - it's all about the game - our game. A sport. And a sport on a deliberately uneven playing field is not a sport proper - it's simply become entertainment. They are selling its soul and reaping the rewards. You are looking at it from a short term view. Given a fair playing field the money will ebb and flow amongst clubs over a longer term. If the poorer clubs were in the public eye and more attractive to new supporters (and remember how many new potential supporters arrive in this country every year) they could improve their base and compete at a more even level. Instead the afl have made it an impossibility Because they don't want short term loss. They simply want to earn more and more revenue every year.
As I said, it means it is a certainty clubs will go, and the sad thing is those clubs are deliberately being kept under heel for that very moment when they have outlived their usefulness and something newer and prettier turns up.
You seem to believe the afl is doing everything in their power to keep these clubs afloat. They are most patently not.

Please argue with the truth. The current board had nothing to do with Fitzroy going and when South went to Sydney they were stuffed as was many sides at that period. And the president of the AFL at the time was hated just like many hate AD now. And it is about the money. If you want it to be about the game follow the Ammos. And if it isnt about the money then clubs will go. Channel 7 pay huge money because they want certain games on Friday night. This does help WB and Melbourne because they get dividends from the money paid.

And the current board has done more to support clubs than any board since South went to Sydney. It is emotive to say clubs will go but baseless.

So tell me plugger, under the current system, how does a team like footscray improve? How does it attract new support?
If you had two children would you plough all your resources into the one that had more friends and did better at school and sport, and was more likely to succeed in life, figuring the money could then be used to prop up the other's welfare payments?
That's what the afl are doing. Deliberately cutting opportunities from certain clubs in order to improve the overall wealth.
Since the monopoly (the afl) we have lost a club, and if you don't believe more are going then you are sadly mistaken. It is the afl administration I have a beef with - not just the current mob. The minute they decided to turn the vfl into a national comp it was always going to be about the money, no doubt, and Melbourne clubs were always going to fold eventually.
But give those smaller clubs a chance to build. It's quite simply the old adage of teaching a man to fish, rather than giving him one. What should have happened is that the afl should have been a brand new competition. The wafl, vfl, and sanfl, could have fed into it. Right now all vfl clubs could be still playing in an even competition in Victoria - just as the other clubs are. None of them have disappeared.
In twenty years the saints won't exist as st kilda, neither will footscray, north, and a couple of others. The afl already tried their darndest to relocate north, and are now screwing them as punishment and hoping to force their hand. And of course they will. The very same welfare mentality of forcing clubs to live on handouts has been brought up again by the swans and the afl will meet with clubs to discuss the problem. It's a bit like a country choosing to give out welfare, but not giving access to training or work opportunity, then criticising those in the system for not bettering themselves. Next they simply cut the welfare.

It is harder for Footscray to improve but only because of GWS and GC concessions. Has this all of a sudden happened because 3 years agao the WB had played in 3 prelims in a row. We arent a rich club and we played in 2 GF's in a row.

Again emotive crap that we wont exist and neither will the WB. What facts do you have to suggest that will happen? I would suggest nil.

And are you joking about how the AFL should have been set up. You still want us and the pies in the VFL feeding into eastern melbourne and so on. Yep that would have really got people interested. It was set up exactly as it should have been. The VFL clubs with other sides from interstate.

I still dont get what you want. Everything to be equal. Cant happen due to 22 games. And if it isnt equal then make sure we get maximum TV rights so clubs continue to exist. You are right the Saints or WB wont exist in 20 years time if we try and have everything equal because TV rights will halve.

[desertsaint]

Yep footscray played finals and still couldn't get prime games. They have been typecast as one of the little clubs and will remain so due to the afl pandering to money interests first. We have been very successful on the field, but continue to struggle financially compared to other successful teams - hence our move to the boondocks and playing in wellington. What I want is to pander to fairness first.
We obviously see it from too different angles. You see it as the afl reaching a set of financial goals, without which they cannot support the little clubs. I see it as the very goals they have set have created the situation.
You don't think creating afl clubs for a national comp would have worked. I say look at Adelaide, Freo, and west coast. Port should join that group but for very poor implementation and branding - caused by trying to bring a sanfl club into a national comp - the same problem caused by trying to bring all vfl clubs in.
And you want to believe it is emotive crap that others will disappear, relocate, or merge. Others see it as a rational consequence. And your argument seems to be asked on what you believe is rational thinking - keep me on drip feed to keep them alive. So follow that train of thought over a generation and where does it lead? Do you really believe the afl will continue to bleed money to these clubs or will they look to expand the game further outiside Victoria. Which will require more money?

[hungry for a premiership]

The thing that pisses me off about our fixture is that we play adelaide at AAMI again with no return fixture, exactly the same as last year, and the same goes with brisbane at the GABBA. That is just crap that we have to play them away two years in a row with no home game. Then next year there'll probably be one home game each against adelaide, then the year after that it will be just one adelaide home game again. That's how we get rorted by the fixture in favour of the interstate teams over the long haul.

[plugger66]

Yep footscray played finals and still couldn't get prime games. They have been typecast as one of the little clubs and will remain so due to the afl pandering to money interests first. We have been very successful on the field, but continue to struggle financially compared to other successful teams - hence our move to the boondocks and playing in wellington. What I want is to pander to fairness first.
We obviously see it from too different angles. You see it as the afl reaching a set of financial goals, without which they cannot support the little clubs. I see it as the very goals they have set have created the situation.
You don't think creating afl clubs for a national comp would have worked. I say look at Adelaide, Freo, and west coast. Port should join that group but for very poor implementation and branding - caused by trying to bring a sanfl club into a national comp - the same problem caused by trying to bring all vfl clubs in.
And you want to believe it is emotive crap that others will disappear, relocate, or merge. Others see it as a rational consequence. And your argument seems to be asked on what you believe is rational thinking - keep me on drip feed to keep them alive. So follow that train of thought over a generation and where does it lead? Do you really believe the afl will continue to bleed money to these clubs or will they look to expand the game further outiside Victoria. Which will require more money?

You mention us as struggling financially. Well we have had a great run as far as Friday night footy goes for about 10 years now. We have never got over 40k members. This has nothing to do with how the AFL treat us. We are just a smaller club than the big guys. We want to be up there but our supporters keep letting us down. Wont join in huge numbers, wont got to the G because it is to cold or some rubbish like that. Yes we dont get Anzac day but lets be honest if we played North on Anzac day and we were a struggling club 40k would be the most we would get there. When both the pies and Bombers are struggling they still get 80k. We have no rival club at all. Thats just the way it is and that isnt the AFL's fault.

And yes I think the AFL will continue to support all clubs as long as their revenue is huge. I am certain they wont if it drops but we can all hold hands and say how even the comp is now.

[70s sainter]

Yep footscray played finals and still couldn't get prime games. They have been typecast as one of the little clubs and will remain so due to the afl pandering to money interests first. We have been very successful on the field, but continue to struggle financially compared to other successful teams - hence our move to the boondocks and playing in wellington. What I want is to pander to fairness first.
We obviously see it from too different angles. You see it as the afl reaching a set of financial goals, without which they cannot support the little clubs. I see it as the very goals they have set have created the situation.
You don't think creating afl clubs for a national comp would have worked. I say look at Adelaide, Freo, and west coast. Port should join that group but for very poor implementation and branding - caused by trying to bring a sanfl club into a national comp - the same problem caused by trying to bring all vfl clubs in.
And you want to believe it is emotive crap that others will disappear, relocate, or merge. Others see it as a rational consequence. And your argument seems to be asked on what you believe is rational thinking - keep me on drip feed to keep them alive. So follow that train of thought over a generation and where does it lead? Do you really believe the afl will continue to bleed money to these clubs or will they look to expand the game further outiside Victoria. Which will require more money?

I agree 100%
Exposure gives you fans and sponsorship dollars ect , which in turn creates a larger demand for more exposure eg free to air coverage.
I cant understand how some clubs get favoured so much by the afl in this regard, while they s*** in the face of other clubs.
It definately has a snowball effect. Who are schoolkids etc going to support? A team like Melb, North Melb or now the Saints who are never on TV , or a club like Carlton who they get to watch week in, week out and get to know the players etc. and the same with sponsors for that matter.
What have the saints done wrong to deserve so few games on free to air , when teams they smashed last year with great footy get given so much more (ess , carlton)

The saints arent on channel 7 for two months in the middle of the season with these crap twilight games they keep giving us and will pretty fall of the radar to alot of people.

Channel 7 games 2013 in Vic

Carl 17 (discraceful)
Geel 15
Ess ?
Coll 13
Hawks 13
Rich 11
Saints 9
N.M 9
Melb 8
Dogs 7

[saintdooley]

the first 8 weeks is going to drain the sh!t out of my bank account.

what bank account

Dads

Nah i cant use it any more we have had a few hard times and financially things were not looking good at all. Had to make a few cut backs so we've decided to sell our Vancouver house and one of the Portsea houses, and also our boat. shattered.

[PLUGGER14]

The thing that pisses me off about our fixture is that we play adelaide at AAMI again with no return fixture, exactly the same as last year, and the same goes with brisbane at the GABBA. That is just crap that we have to play them away two years in a row with no home game. Then next year there'll probably be one home game each against adelaide, then the year after that it will be just one adelaide home game again. That's how we get rorted by the fixture in favour of the interstate teams over the long haul.

Highlight of my year the Saints game at the Gabba! Long may we travel up for the four points now that we seem to be able to win there! Saw many many many games where we appeared not to have made the trip!!!!

[desertsaint]

Yep footscray played finals and still couldn't get prime games. They have been typecast as one of the little clubs and will remain so due to the afl pandering to money interests first. We have been very successful on the field, but continue to struggle financially compared to other successful teams - hence our move to the boondocks and playing in wellington. What I want is to pander to fairness first.
We obviously see it from too different angles. You see it as the afl reaching a set of financial goals, without which they cannot support the little clubs. I see it as the very goals they have set have created the situation.
You don't think creating afl clubs for a national comp would have worked. I say look at Adelaide, Freo, and west coast. Port should join that group but for very poor implementation and branding - caused by trying to bring a sanfl club into a national comp - the same problem caused by trying to bring all vfl clubs in.
And you want to believe it is emotive crap that others will disappear, relocate, or merge. Others see it as a rational consequence. And your argument seems to be asked on what you believe is rational thinking - keep me on drip feed to keep them alive. So follow that train of thought over a generation and where does it lead? Do you really believe the afl will continue to bleed money to these clubs or will they look to expand the game further outiside Victoria. Which will require more money?

You mention us as struggling financially. Well we have had a great run as far as Friday night footy goes for about 10 years now. We have never got over 40k members. This has nothing to do with how the AFL treat us. We are just a smaller club than the big guys.

It takes a generation plugger, you don't convert existing fans you gain new ones as they grow up. That's the point. It takes time and equity in promotion.

[plugger66]

Yep footscray played finals and still couldn't get prime games. They have been typecast as one of the little clubs and will remain so due to the afl pandering to money interests first. We have been very successful on the field, but continue to struggle financially compared to other successful teams - hence our move to the boondocks and playing in wellington. What I want is to pander to fairness first.
We obviously see it from too different angles. You see it as the afl reaching a set of financial goals, without which they cannot support the little clubs. I see it as the very goals they have set have created the situation.
You don't think creating afl clubs for a national comp would have worked. I say look at Adelaide, Freo, and west coast. Port should join that group but for very poor implementation and branding - caused by trying to bring a sanfl club into a national comp - the same problem caused by trying to bring all vfl clubs in.
And you want to believe it is emotive crap that others will disappear, relocate, or merge. Others see it as a rational consequence. And your argument seems to be asked on what you believe is rational thinking - keep me on drip feed to keep them alive. So follow that train of thought over a generation and where does it lead? Do you really believe the afl will continue to bleed money to these clubs or will they look to expand the game further outiside Victoria. Which will require more money?

You mention us as struggling financially. Well we have had a great run as far as Friday night footy goes for about 10 years now. We have never got over 40k members. This has nothing to do with how the AFL treat us. We are just a smaller club than the big guys.

It takes a generation plugger, you don't convert existing fans you gain new ones as they grow up. That's the point. It takes time and equity in promotion.

I must have missed Hawthorns growth since they nearly merged.

[saintspremiers]

For those with Foxtel HD the more Foxtel games the better.

Better commentary and analysis and full HD coverage!

As for Footsscray having NIL Friday night games that is good. They are crap to watch and a disgrace of a club at the moment.

[stinger]

They should have looked harder - we play three of the finalists from this year twice - unless Freo don't count

i'll bite, swans, freo and who else...?

[desertsaint]

I must have missed Hawthorns growth since they nearly merged.

No, you have just forgotten the time and what's happened.
It was 16 years ago, and ripped up by the hawks as they had enjoyed already one and a half decades of success and the next generation of fans from that were arriving. Still they had to get Tasmanian assistance and play home games in another state to survive. So hawthorns supporter base grew over 30 years, and still required government help.