The Fox Report - 11/8/08

[saint66au]

The Andrew Bolt of Saintsational

[St DAC]

Without the charisma ...

[Spinner]

But all your surmising and revisionism is just like someone writing a travel guide or history to a country they've never visited.

Or perhaps like someone writing on a footy forum? God forbid.

Only if this is the foxy-flog-fest-fantasy-footy-forum-f-f-sake.

Or perhaps the Saintsational Fan Forum. God forbid someone summarising and reviewing the Saints on a Saints footy forum.

As you well know there is summarising and reviewing, and there is surmising and revisionism.

There is blogging, and there is flogging.

I actually dont see a problem with it. He puts his name in the title so you dont have to read it if you dont eant to. Pretty simple really.

Not many others take the time to put their thoughts down....Weather he is right or wrong, or weather you disagree.....There is plenty of room to respond. It is a thread remember.

What is worse is scrolling through crap post after crap post of the original poster having to defend his right to start a thread, rather than to the topic on hand.

Keep the reports coming Fox.

[Mr Magic]

But all your surmising and revisionism is just like someone writing a travel guide or history to a country they've never visited.

Or perhaps like someone writing on a footy forum? God forbid.

Only if this is the foxy-flog-fest-fantasy-footy-forum-f-f-sake.

Or perhaps the Saintsational Fan Forum. God forbid someone summarising and reviewing the Saints on a Saints footy forum.

As you well know there is summarising and reviewing, and there is surmising and revisionism.

There is blogging, and there is flogging.

I actually dont see a problem with it. He puts his name in the title so you dont have to read it if you dont eant to. Pretty simple really.

Not many others take the time to put their thoughts down....Weather he is right or wrong, or weather you disagree.....There is plenty of room to respond. It is a thread remember.

What is worse is scrolling through crap post after crap post of the original poster having to defend his right to start a thread, rather than to the topic on hand.

Keep the reports coming Fox.

I would have thought that anybody who posts is actually 'putting their thoughts down'?

Including 'crap post after crap post of the original poster having to defend his right to start a thread'. Surely if you believe in free speech then you cannot argue against allowing what you consider to be a 'crap post'?

BTW, I don't believe anybody stated that rodgerfox shouldn't be allowed to start a thread. The query from me, and it would appear other posters, is in his apparent narcissistic thread title.
But then again, he's entitled to post anything he likes (within Forum rules) and I'm entitled to post anything I like in reply (within Forum rules).

[Spinner]

But all your surmising and revisionism is just like someone writing a travel guide or history to a country they've never visited.

Or perhaps like someone writing on a footy forum? God forbid.

Only if this is the foxy-flog-fest-fantasy-footy-forum-f-f-sake.

Or perhaps the Saintsational Fan Forum. God forbid someone summarising and reviewing the Saints on a Saints footy forum.

As you well know there is summarising and reviewing, and there is surmising and revisionism.

There is blogging, and there is flogging.

I actually dont see a problem with it. He puts his name in the title so you dont have to read it if you dont eant to. Pretty simple really.

Not many others take the time to put their thoughts down....Weather he is right or wrong, or weather you disagree.....There is plenty of room to respond. It is a thread remember.

What is worse is scrolling through crap post after crap post of the original poster having to defend his right to start a thread, rather than to the topic on hand.

Keep the reports coming Fox.

I would have thought that anybody who posts is actually 'putting their thoughts down'?

Including 'crap post after crap post of the original poster having to defend his right to start a thread'. Surely if you believe in free speech then you cannot argue against allowing what you consider to be a 'crap post'?

BTW, I don't believe anybody stated that rodgerfox shouldn't be allowed to start a thread. The query from me, and it would appear other posters, is in his apparent narcissistic thread title.
But then again, he's entitled to post anything he likes (within Forum rules) and I'm entitled to post anything I like in reply (within Forum rules).

How about posting about the topic....rather than complaining about the title.

If you wish to turn this into a 2 year olds forum....proceed. The lack of quality on this site is already diminishing. You'll just speed up the process.

[Mr Magic]

I'm sorry, I must have misread the title?
I'm sure it said THE FOX REPORT.

What's wrong with posting my thoughts about the title?

[Spinner]

I'm sorry, I must have misread the title?
I'm sure it said THE FOX REPORT.

What's wrong with posting my thoughts about the title?

Because its childish.

If you cant realize that after more than 3000 posts, well im not going to argue.

[Beej]

Is this a weekly thing? I enjoyed the read.

Agree with everything apart from us apparently being the most vulnerable of the Melbourne clubs.

Is there anything in that? Or just your opinion, Rodge?

Surely we're ahead of Melbourne and Nth Melbourne.

[rodgerfox]

Agree with everything apart from us apparently being the most vulnerable of the Melbourne clubs.

Is there anything in that? Or just your opinion, Rodge?

It's just my opinion.

[bozza1980]

I must admit I don't agree with everything Rodger puts in his weekly report, but I do enjoy reading it.

Keep it up.

[bob__71]

I dont tend to read the FOX report, cause its the same old "what is different in the last two years" being very carefult to not mention GT theme week after week....I do enjoy replying to the threads though as Rodger attempts to pretend he doesnt care about GT being sacked or any of that.....I agree it is childish....but still funny watching Mr RODGER FOX tell us all he doesnt care 2 years on when THE FOX REPORT makes it so blatently obvious that he does.

The emotions one builds a mask to hide, are the ones most obvious to all other observers

[rodgerfox]

I dont tend to read the FOX report, cause its the same old "what is different in the last two years" being very carefult to not mention GT theme week after week....I do enjoy replying to the threads though as Rodger attempts to pretend he doesnt care about GT being sacked or any of that.....I agree it is childish....but still funny watching Mr RODGER FOX tell us all he doesnt care 2 years on when THE FOX REPORT makes it so blatently obvious that he does.

The emotions one builds a mask to hide, are the ones most obvious to all other observers

I'm more concerned about where we're at right now.

Out of curiosity, do you know what my views are on 'GT and the sacking'?

Because it seems based on your posts above, that you don't. Perhaps have a read of some of my old posts about the sacking, and you'll find that you're completely off track.

[bob__71]

I would say your view is that it was a decision that prematurely ended a chance at a flag for this group. Of which most people would agree

And you have been reminding us of that mistake for two years....

As far as I see it the biggest current problem is players supporters etc are still living in the past....

and I will explain as an example. The biggest dissapointments this year as far as I'm concerned have been our top rung mid range players....those players who would have had a chance to capitan the club one day under the GT leadership model....For one game this year they all pulled their fingers out and had a go.....it was when Dal was dropped....they had to forget about the past and what they had lost...and look to the future for once to make sure they didnt stuff their own careers.

But soon enough we are back to looking in the rear view....

[rodgerfox]

I would say your view is that it was a decision that prematurely ended a chance at a flag for this group. Of which most people would agree

And you have been reminding us of that mistake for two years....

See. You're way off.


Do you feel a bit stupid now? You should. I've expressed my views about 1000 times.

[spert]

Quality players don't need leadership models, they create their own standards for other to reach and unfortunately too many of our name players haven't got that inbuilt leadership quality -somthing sadly lacking at this club for years.
I personally don't think Lyon has the goods as coach, and really, Alves is best performed coach in recent history at the club -got us into a Grand Final with a lesser team than Thomas had in 2004.

[bob__71]

On internet forums I like to be a bit silly....sure beats taking yourself ever so seriously

[Richter]

Well, we are what we are.


A very, very ordinary football side.

Yes, agree. the ladder does not lie - we are, overall, average. But it's more than that - we're inconsistent. We 've had two quarters of flag winning quality football against top 3 teams - and a quarter against Geelong when we were on top. But we've had a hell of a lot of rubbish too - but mostly our performances have been somewhere in between.

The most poorly coached team in the comp.

Don't agree here though. Jury on Lyon still out for mine.

We have to rebuild this side. The recruiting we've done since Lyon took over is horrific. We've topped up with average footballers, and are playing 'kids' with no future in a top side.

Top-ups - I agree

Schneider - ordinary to good, premiership player, under performed at SKFC
King - ditto, overperformed
Dempster - ditto: has actually turned out better than I had hoped
Michael G - former AA ruckman, underperformed - but little lost in trade
Charlie G - little lost, but not performed. Gone at season's end - worth a shot though given our lack of a medium sized forward.

I actually favour trading for fewer players but focussing on one really good player - see below.

Also agree re the likely talent of the kids - but you have to play 'em to find out which are the good 'uns and which aren't. Most clubs have to do this, even the ones challenging for the flag as all clubs have to turnover players year on year. The nature of an 18-man team competition dictates this.

Some very big calls need to be made......
We're in trouble on-field. And that will spell serious trouble off it.

I essentially disagree with your thesis. I think that we are an ordinary side that could break out into greatness, you see us as an ordinary team about to fall down the ladder. I base this on the fact that most of our nucleus of players - Roo, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Fisher, Gram, Goddard - have another likely 4-5 years of good footy ahead of them. Lenny probably only a couple more, G gone already, Harvey going soon and Max holding on maybe for one more season.

IMO for a decent flag tilt we're a player or two short. For mine that is another top mid and a reasonable third lead-up forward option. We should hope to cover Max's departure after next year from within.

I favour making a play for Kerr, trading perhaps X and sending our pick gained from him + our first pick to WCE; or making a big play for Cousins. The mid-CHF option - no clue.

The worst thing about the club at the moment, is that there is noone from the 'on-field' department doing anything close to generating some pride. Some spirit. Some belief.

Roo has led well this year. But it needs to come from the coach.

Again, I agree. Lenny is a great player, but for mine has not shown much in terms of on-field leadership. Bally has and we sorely missed him last Saturday. Goddard has improved in this area.

The big failure in this area? Nick Dal Santo. I'm not such a harsh critic of his play as others, but for mine he hasn't done a lot to motivate others and shown bugger all leadership quality. After he was dropped he came back and had a stormer against the Hawks..... but has done nothing again since - I really hope that it is the tonsillitis that has held him back and that he can recover some of his vim and vigour in these last 3 games of the season. He could take a look at his own final quarter vs the pies - he was at the bottom of the packs, throwing himself around - just what you need to do when other parts of your game are not going right.

I must admit I don't agree with everything Rodger puts in his weekly report, but I do enjoy reading it.

Keep it up.

I couldn't agree more.

As for narcissistic? So what, I don't know you Rodg so I'm not suggesting that you're a great (although you are a "Saintsational Legend"!) but all great men (and women) have very well developed narcissistic sides to their ego. Nothing wrong with a bit of hubris.

[saintsRrising]

I essentially disagree with your thesis. I think that we are an ordinary side that could break out into greatness, you see us as an ordinary team about to fall down the ladder. I base this on the fact that most of our nucleus of players - Roo, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Fisher, Gram, Goddard - have another likely 4-5 years of good footy ahead of them. Lenny probably only a couple more, G gone already, Harvey going soon and Max holding on maybe for one more season.

IMO for a decent flag tilt we're a player or two short. For mine that is another top mid and a reasonable third lead-up forward option. We should hope to cover Max's departure after next year from within.

.

Good post Richter and I essentially agree with most of it.

I particularly think the above extract is worth highlighting though.

We are about 3 classy players short of beinga top team team.

The midfield is the most important component of a team in todays football.....and we are short one realy classy mid that can HURT the opposition. dal on song can cut up the opposition and this is why he is the mid that opposition coaches most desire to shut down and keep quiet.

Lenny is great at winning the bal, but often fails to exploit it with damaging ball use. Ditto for ball.

There are a range of other mids at the club, and they are ok as supprt acts...but we desperately need another star mid.


After that, there area range of postions that we need strengtheinng in. Now no team is perfect and so you might not get them all....but adding at least one, preferably two of the below would get the team rocking.

* another classy mid with good footskills
* a key defender
* a medium forward with the knack of kicking goals, who is mobile and is a handy mark (A Charlie Gardiner who can actually kick oals if you will!!!!)



Now while the OP bemoans the recruiting post-Lyons hiring, the real problem was the bleak years of GT were once the low Watson inspred picks dried up virtually no new YOUNG talent was gained or developed.

That gap in recruiting is a major problem for Lyon and has led to that "gap" of several "star" players. but not only that it also provideda huge gap in depth of "average" players that every club needs as well.

One can understand why Lyon took the tack of increasing depth at the club when depth was clearly lacking and opportunities presented to pick up "extra" players for virtually no trade cost to Schneider for 26 and Birss for 43...with the others being "free".
And at the same time Lyon went for youth as well...bottom age picks in Steven and eljay...anda young ruck in McEvoy who would be years off. 3 picks made bya coach for the clubs future without reagrd to his immediate coaching future.


Now while the OP lambasts Lyon for his trading of players from other clubs.....if they had not occurred what kids would we have instead at the club now?

2006...Pick 43...a kid with 1.5 years under the belt. The players around this mark so far have 0 to 18 games under their belts with Reimers being the pick.

2007..Pick 26..a kid with less thana year at the club. A look at the players near this shows player with 0 to only 3 games under their belts.

So say we had taken Andy Otten and Reimers instead.

Can anyone seriously believe that our year this year would have been better?

Would they have provided more of a difference that King and Dempster?

Lyon is faced with the task of repairing the damage done by an era of dismal drafting and trading before he arrived.

There is a missing era of young players NOT at the cub...players who should just now be hitting their straps.....but who are not there.

Now some seem to think that rookies and the drafted players like Armo and Steven should magically transform into these "missing" players in just a season or so.

But kids take time to ripen.

The Saints squandered our draft wealth of the preceeding 3 or 4 years through ineptitude...and are now in the process of rebuilding it.

[plugger66]

I essentially disagree with your thesis. I think that we are an ordinary side that could break out into greatness, you see us as an ordinary team about to fall down the ladder. I base this on the fact that most of our nucleus of players - Roo, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Fisher, Gram, Goddard - have another likely 4-5 years of good footy ahead of them. Lenny probably only a couple more, G gone already, Harvey going soon and Max holding on maybe for one more season.

IMO for a decent flag tilt we're a player or two short. For mine that is another top mid and a reasonable third lead-up forward option. We should hope to cover Max's departure after next year from within.

.

Good post Richter and I essentially agree with most of it.

I particularly think the above extract is worth highlighting though.

We are about 3 classy players short of beinga top team team.

The midfield is the most important component of a team in todays football.....and we are short one realy classy mid that can HURT the opposition. dal on song can cut up the opposition and this is why he is the mid that opposition coaches most desire to shut down and keep quiet.

Lenny is great at winning the bal, but often fails to exploit it with damaging ball use. Ditto for ball.

There are a range of other mids at the club, and they are ok as supprt acts...but we desperately need another star mid.


After that, there area range of postions that we need strengtheinng in. Now no team is perfect and so you might not get them all....but adding at least one, preferably two of the below would get the team rocking.

* another classy mid with good footskills
* a key defender
* a medium forward with the knack of kicking goals, who is mobile and is a handy mark (A Charlie Gardiner who can actually kick oals if you will!!!!)



Now while the OP bemoans the recruiting post-Lyons hiring, the real problem was the bleak years of GT were once the low Watson inspred picks dried up virtually no new YOUNG talent was gained or developed.

That gap in recruiting is a major problem for Lyon and has led to that "gap" of several "star" players. but not only that it also provideda huge gap in depth of "average" players that every club needs as well.

One can understand why Lyon took the tack of increasing depth at the club when depth was clearly lacking and opportunities presented to pick up "extra" players for virtually no trade cost to Schneider for 26 and Birss for 43...with the others being "free".
And at the same time Lyon went for youth as well...bottom age picks in Steven and eljay...anda young ruck in McEvoy who would be years off. 3 picks made bya coach for the clubs future without reagrd to his immediate coaching future.


Now while the OP lambasts Lyon for his trading of players from other clubs.....if they had not occurred what kids would we have instead at the club now?

2006...Pick 43...a kid with 1.5 years under the belt. The players around this mark so far have 0 to 18 games under their belts with Reimers being the pick.

2007..Pick 26..a kid with less thana year at the club. A look at the players near this shows player with 0 to only 3 games under their belts.

So say we had taken Andy Otten and Reimers instead.

Can anyone seriously believe that our year this year would have been better?

Would they have provided more of a difference that King and Dempster?

Lyon is faced with the task of repairing the damage done by an era of dismal drafting and trading before he arrived.

There is a missing era of young players NOT at the cub...players who should just now be hitting their straps.....but who are not there.

Now some seem to think that rookies and steven should magically transform into these "missing" players is justa sesaon.

But kids take time to ripen.

The Saints squandered our draft wealth of the preceeding 3 aor 4 years through ineptitude...and are now in the process of rebuilding it.

You love blaming recruiting problems on the Gt era but fail to realise that his picks after 2004 were higher than RL have been and even though we got Watts for a first rounder it was pick 17. What were the players around that mark. not much if I remember. To blame Gt then you must also blame RL or do your rose coloured glasses only see GT as the problem. In RL first 2 years of recruiting we have picked up more recycled players than probably Gt did in 5 and there value isnt much better than any GT got.

You cannot blame GT or RL for the recruiting at the draft that is JB and Peake as are the rookies in those periods. Blame GT for trades but dont forget RL has done as many and we are further away from a flag now. At least when GT did it we thought maybe onbe good trade may have got us a flag but yes it wasnt to be.


As for the devolpment of players even though GT had a big say in things he wasnt allowed to spend the money that they allow RL to spend now and that is a fact. Having said that I reckon Dal, Goose, Joey, Chips, Rooy, Kosi and X were developing pretty well in the early 2000's.
What happens in 3 years when the lack of good recruiting now bites us on the arse even more than the recruiting in the GT era.

[saintsRrising]

You love blaming recruiting problems on the Gt era but fail to realise that his picks after 2004 ..................

Fail to realise???

Why??

I look at the picks as a totatlity. No one pick or trade shows anything.

Put them all together and then compare. With Lyon we can look at the list in 2 years time and see where it is at (even if he is gone). If Steven, Eljay, Geary, Jones, Allen etc have all fallen by the wayside then yes Lyon will have failed to. Note that is TOO..as GT failed in this regard.

What you are basically saying is that when GT had no easy low draft picks that he knew no what to do...which of course is true.

[plugger66]

You love blaming recruiting problems on the Gt era but fail to realise that his picks after 2004 ..................

Fail to realise???

Why??

I look at the picks as a totatlity. No one pick or trade shows anything.

Put them all together and then compare. With Lyon we can loo at the list in 2 years time and see where it is at. If Steven, Eljay, Geary, Jones, Allen etc have all fallen by the wayside then yes Lyon will have failed to. Note that is TOO..as GT failed in this regard.

What you are basically saying is that when GT had no easy low draft picks that he knew no what to do...which of course is true.

So you think RL recruited those players. No he didnt had nothing to do with it. He got G, Ferg, 2 gardiners, Schneider, Dempster, Clarke or do we also say Gt got Dal, Goose, X, Joey and so on. I think not. The recruiting has been poor for the last 5 years but in the Gt are we thought we could win a flag and barring injury probably would have. Not my words but words of nearly every footy reporter so Gt took a punt on a couple of older players. What is RL reason for this?

[maverick]

You love blaming recruiting problems on the Gt era but fail to realise that his picks after 2004 ..................

Fail to realise???

Why??

I look at the picks as a totatlity. No one pick or trade shows anything.

Put them all together and then compare. With Lyon we can look at the list in 2 years time and see where it is at. If Steven, Eljay, Geary, Jones, Allen etc have all fallen by the wayside then yes Lyon will have failed to. Note that is TOO..as GT failed in this regard.

What you are basically saying is that when GT had no easy low draft picks that he knew no what to do...which of course is true.

He's called you on it SRR and he's correct.
Its getting evry boring to read the same stuff in a million and one threads, especially when its BS.

The drafts of 03, 04 & 05 after the top 10 were extremely ordinary, yes we struggled, but there was very little decent at our picks or after in those drafts (excluding BJ).

Trading at the time was worth the risk IMO, the only one I violently disagree with was McGough.

[saintsRrising]

So you think RL recruited those players. No he didnt had nothing to do with it.?

No..but what I have said is that the buck for building a team stops with the coach

He got G, Ferg, 2 gardiners, Schneider, Dempster, Clarke or do we also say Gt got Dal, Goose, X, Joey and so on. I think not. The recruiting has been poor for the last 5 years but in the Gt are we thought we could win a flag and barring injury probably would have. Not my words but words of nearly every footy reporter so Gt took a punt on a couple of older players. What is RL reason for this?

What is RL's reason for this?

Well I have already stated it in the thread above.

But expanding on it....a generation of players was leaving....Hamill, Powell, Pecket, Voss, Thommo (and one can add Harvey and the GTrain) with very little to replace them....and so I imagine he was looking for extra depth as it was pretty apparent that there was not a pool of kids in the system to replace them.


Now I am not saying that Lyon's drafting/trading is perfect...and as I have posted many times in the past my personal preference is to err on the side of kids.

Thing is though even if Lyon had gone more my way and had say gone ALL kids...he would still not have hada better team as picks 26. 43....and that very valuable pick 116 odd for King would not have produced much of yet....even if you went through and picked out the best pick in hindsight with those picks...they would not be blooming yet.

[plugger66]

So you think RL recruited those players. No he didnt had nothing to do with it.?

No..but what I have said is that the buck for building a team stops with the coach

He got G, Ferg, 2 gardiners, Schneider, Dempster, Clarke or do we also say Gt got Dal, Goose, X, Joey and so on. I think not. The recruiting has been poor for the last 5 years but in the Gt are we thought we could win a flag and barring injury probably would have. Not my words but words of nearly every footy reporter so Gt took a punt on a couple of older players. What is RL reason for this?

What is RL's reason for this?

Well I have already stated it in the thread above.

But expanding on it....a generation of players was leaving....Hamill, Powell, Pecket, Voss, Thommo (and one can add Harvey and the GTrain) with very little to replace them....and so I imagine he was looking for extra depth as it was pretty apparent that there was not a pool of kids in the system to replace them.


Now I am not saying that Lyon's drafting/trading is perfect...and as I have posted many times in the past my personal preference is to err on the side of kids.

Thing is though even if Lyon had gone more my way and had say gone ALL kids...he would still not have hada better team as picks 26. 43....and that very valuable pick 116 odd for King would not have produced much of yet....even if you went through and picked out the best pick in hindsight with those picks...they would not be blooming yet.

Well if the buck stops with coach with building a team then why are we argueing. Even though Gt didnt win us a flag he built a side that made 3 finals in a row and at the moment RL has built a side that may playin one final out of 2 but isnt really going anywhere. I ask you this is the list RL has bulit going to improve next year in your opinion?

[saintsRrising]

The drafts of 03, 04 & 05 after the top 10 were extremely ordinary, yes we struggled, but there was very little decent at our picks or after in those drafts (excluding BJ).

.

So you believe that every club performed just as badly as the Saints in recruiting over those years??


YES GT topped up to win a flag...and that YES is a valid tactic.
Problem was that GT got his topping up picks wrong. His top ups did not produce any real extra talent or even true depth.

It was HIS call...and it did not pan out. ...his top-ups did not turn out.

At the end of the day whether it was just bad luck, or poor judgement his long line of trades , bar Gram, did not pan out....and that is way too low a strike rate.

Winners are grinners...

But Downers are Frowners...and GT decreased down the value of our list, he weakened it rather than strenthened it.


With Lyon....if Schneider does not pull his finger out over the remainder of the year, Lyon will cop more flak...and deservedly so for it was his call.

But the other mature picks cost squat all.



Maybe we should get Blight back .....I mean last time it delivered a pool of very good players to boost the quality of the team.