Trade King

[SaintPav]

When Plugger left, 3 years later we made a grand final.

Just saying.

No flags tho
Just sayin
Swans got some though..

How many did they get with Plugger?

My point is that if he left for the right price, it’s not the end of the world and could work in our favour.

My inclination is to keep him at this stage but we all want to see him do better.

[nostalgicsaint]

When Plugger left, 3 years later we made a grand final.

Just saying.

No flags tho
Just sayin
Swans got some though..

Hawks did okay when Franklin left.
We did okay when Hall left.

No one is saying shop him for nothing however if you could get 2 x first round picks and then use the cash to bring in a free agent then it is worth thinking about.

[Scollop]

When Plugger left, 3 years later we made a grand final.

Just saying.

No flags tho
Just sayin
Swans got some though..

How many did they get with Plugger?

My point is that if he left for the right price, it’s not the end of the world and could work in our favour.

My inclination is to keep him at this stage but we all want to see him do better.

We were fkn unlucky in 97. Not just the fact we had injuries leading up to the GF, but Winmar and Loewe played the worst games of their careers with us on that bloody day...we all know why

The point that Pav is making is valid. We traded Plugger and we became a better team.

Champion teams win flags. Good football clubs win flags. Not clubs with messiah complexes

I'd be telling King to prepare to be traded. Get the word out now. He changes his attitude or he can ship off

[BadRossco]

2x first round picks being bandied around people must be thinking of Ben King not Max be lucky to get a late first rounder for a sook that can’t kick.

[SaintPav]

When Plugger left, 3 years later we made a grand final.

Just saying.

No flags tho
Just sayin
Swans got some though..

How many did they get with Plugger?

My point is that if he left for the right price, it’s not the end of the world and could work in our favour.

My inclination is to keep him at this stage but we all want to see him do better.

We were fkn unlucky in 97. Not just the fact we had injuries leading up to the GF, but Winmar and Loewe played the worst games of their careers with us on that bloody day...we all know why

The point that Pav is making is valid. We traded Plugger and we became a better team.

Champion teams win flags. Good football clubs win flags. Not clubs with messiah complexes

I'd be telling King to prepare to be traded. Get the word out now. He changes his attitude or he can ship off

Thanks, Scollop.

Russell Morris had some interesting views on Plugger. This is from the Pluggered pod cast and it starts from his opinion on Plugger.

The whole video is excellent BTW and very funny.

[saintbob]

When Plugger left, 3 years later we made a grand final.

Just saying.

No flags tho
Just sayin
Swans got some though..

Hawks did okay when Franklin left.
We did okay when Hall left.

No one is saying shop him for nothing however if you could get 2 x first round picks and then use the cash to bring in a free agent then it is worth thinking about.

He ain’t no Plugger or Buddy, I liken him more to a Ben Brown!!

But Brown is a better kick for goal

[Scollop]

Just one last thing on Max.

Did previous management put too much pressure on him? Do current player welfare staff like Browny know what's happening in his head?

If he's not happy and if he hasn't got a steady girlfriend or interests outside footy, that could be part of the problem. What is this bloke passionate about?

We don't know what's going on in this young man's personal life outside football. I hope he can get his act together and perform to his potential

[Jacks Back]

Does anyone know the W/L stats for when King does and doesn't play? Because, it seems to me, we play better when King doesn't play but that may not be right.

EDIT - With Max not playing
2020 All games 11-8 with King 10-8 - 1 extra win without King
2021 All games 10-12 with King 8-12 - 2 extra wins without King
2022 played all games
2023 All games 13-11 with King 5-6 - 3 extra wins without King

So all up since debut we have won 6 more games without King playing

OKAY not really much more.

[Yorkeys]

Has there been a nuttier thread/suggestion?
No.

[Teflon]

When Plugger left, 3 years later we made a grand final.

Just saying.

No flags tho
Just sayin
Swans got some though..

How many did they get with Plugger?

My point is that if he left for the right price, it’s not the end of the world and could work in our favour.

My inclination is to keep him at this stage but we all want to see him do better.

That’s all “if if if”
We don’t live in that world
You could also let him go and get a dud ?
My point is he’s had 1 bad game …people are selling him off?
Funny stuff

[Teflon]

Has there been a nuttier thread/suggestion?
No.

I don’t think so …bizarre
Let’s get the pitch forks go get King…”in case” we get another Plugger type deal….
Batshyte crazy stuff …

[SaintPav]

It’s just not one bad game though. It’s been a concerning trend.

[Moods]

It’s just not one bad game though. It’s been a concerning trend.

His first 3 games were all very good. His last 2 not so. Hardly a trend

[saintkev]

Max doesn't work hard enough

Make him try to achieve a certain number of marks per game and leads per game rather than just trying to set him up to kick goals.

He either needs to play as second ruck or play higher up the ground. He doesn't have to kick multiple goals each game to be valuable team member.

He needs some tough love. At the moment he is not the star that people believe he is.

Or he believes he is.

[SaintPav]

It’s just not one bad game though. It’s been a concerning trend.

His first 3 games were all very good. His last 2 not so. Hardly a trend

Doesn’t lead.
Doesn’t work hard enough.
Misses goals regularly.

His game is very flawed and is what I’m talking about.

[nostalgicsaint]

Again I don't think anyone- myself included- is advocating to trade him for whatever you can get, the point is you could get immense value back and these days 1st round picks are more reliable than days gone by.

The last two weeks have been golden opportunities for King to grab a game by the scruff and show how good he is. I thought he started with great intent then fell off.

The issue is likely between the ears.

At worst he is a star so if we hold him no big deal. Speaking to my non saints mates- they think he would net us 3 x first round picks.

Imagine gaining owens, Windy, Nas again in exchange....

[Sainter_Dad]

It’s just not one bad game though. It’s been a concerning trend.

His first 3 games were all very good. His last 2 not so. Hardly a trend

Doesn’t lead.
Doesn’t work hard enough.
Misses goals regularly.

His game is very flawed and is what I’m talking about.

I wonder if he has been instructed to stay at home in the GWS to keep their best weapon closer to goal??

[Sainter_Dad]

I know that there are things that can't be counted - like would Higgins be our top goal scorer if King was not bringing them to ground - would Hammer have as many shots if King was not taking the #1 defender(s)

It takes 2 defenders most of the time to stop him - lower your eyes St Kilda and look for the better option - FFS - someone please show the team the Carlton Adelaide game from yesterday.

- Targeted kicks to space that were suddenly filled by a leading forward
- More than one avenue to goal
- Chaos kicks if all was in doubt
- Forwards taking marks on the lead on their chest at full flight

Even in our own game - how often was there an outlet kick in their forward 50 - just a little chip kick and someone was there to mark.

These are game style issues - we need to fix them.

Seriously - we have precision welders at St Kilda - but we give them matches and spoon to use.

HOWEVER - King - work on your kicking - 3 per game has to be minimum - you have the opportunity to be a superstar

[samoht]

I reckon Max Heath can play the role that King is playing at the moment, and he'd be a better shot at goal.

King is not soft ... he might just be better suited to another key position.

I'm actually thinking CHB ... as an intercept mark, spoling from behind, etc...

Some lateral thinking.

Is King more value having 3 or 4 iffy shots at goal, or at CHB where he can potentially gather 25 possessions, take 12 intercepts, etc...?
Roberton was averaging 25 possessions as a pick 49 ... I keep returning to that..
Who knows what he could do .... we can't just see him as a FF, that's all?

[Otiman]

I know that there are things that can't be counted - like would Higgins be our top goal scorer if King was not bringing them to ground - would Hammer have as many shots if King was not taking the #1 defender(s)

They can be counted, it's called Score Involvements. I'm not sure it counts spoils/taps but it's a good indication of how involved a player is in team score.

For us, average score involvements per game:
Henry - 7.5
King - 7.0
Higgins - 7.0

Top 5 key forwards in comp:
Jesse Hogan - 8.8
Charlie Curnow - 8.0
Harry McKay - 7.6
Joe Daniher - 7.4
Max King - 7.0

Not bad. But when you look at the GWS game, he had one (1) score involvement. Take that out of his average and he's looking much better.

I think rightfully King gets criticism for this weeks game, but outside of that is doing OK.

[Banger9798]

Has there been a nuttier thread/suggestion?
No.

Can't believe this thread.
He will have some bad games....so what....still a young developing forward doing a good job.

[spert]

Winning premierships is a team thing, and that includes the coach, and no one player is responsible. In thinking about Max, I think he plays like a skilled 200cm flanker and not a KPP, and that's the problem- we need a better option as a FF, maybe Membrey should be parked there full time, and that's not Max's fault as I just don't see him as a KPP.

The forward line is too slow this season, and a faster running backline can easily exploit this as we have seen so far, and the coach needs to wear this. Of course we miss Henry, and Butler as a small forward is not at the level he was in the past since returning. We do need one more zippy forward at the expense of someone slower, and we don't have much to call on, maybe Collard for few games to see how he goes?

[Otiman]

Winning premierships is a team thing, and that includes the coach, and no one player is responsible. In thinking about Max, I think he plays like a skilled 200cm flanker and not a KPP, and that's the problem- we need a better option as a FF, maybe Membrey should be parked there full time, and that's not Max's fault as I just don't see him as a KPP.

Caminiti FF, King CHF. Lock it in. Play like Hawkins/Cameron.

[Sainter_Dad]

Those comparing Ben to Max this weekend - remember who each was playing against

in the short time I have watched the Ben game - 2 frees - one for over the shoulder (soft) and one for holding - both gettable but needed to be kicked. However, he also flew for some and did not mark - and stayed down when he should have crashed the pack.

It takes a beat for these kids nowadays to re-learn the I am the gorilla and don't need to compete mentality that they learned at school. To some extent, in this area, kids like Owens have an advantage, they had to scrap to get the ball.

PS - He is not the Messiah - he is a cog in the gears of St Kilda - and at the end of the day - his line coach needs to be responsible if he is not leading etc - and maybe a spell at Sandy would help - I don't know - it is what I would do - but who knows with Cuddly Generation Zoomer.

[SaintPav]

It should be horses for courses the way they play King, but it should be team first eg:

Play close to goal against short arsed defences like Collingwood, Hawthorn etc
Play wide and as decoy against teams like Melbourne and Brisbane etc
Play further up the ground against other teams like Freo etc