Where we are at

[Otiman]

Perhaps the much maligned role Cordy was playing is more valuable than many on here realised too?

Not unless he was playing in the middle.

Conversion from F50 entries not a problem. Or at least not our primary problem.

[Sanctorum]

Where is St Kilda at???

After yesterday's disappointing effort, sitting in 5th place with a 7-4 win/loss record and in David King's words, "vulnerable".

Quite clearly that sort of result, as with the big loss to Adelaide is not simply due to one thing, it's always a combination of coaches and players.

Overall, ever since the Port Adelaide game the players have not played their best, and I'm sure that has frustrated and mystified the coaches just as much as it has supporters.

Is it a compromised game plan, does RL not have a Plan B??? There's no way of knowing, but I do recall that RL has from the outset designated his 3 assistant coaches to bear responsibility for that task, and I don't believe RL has exclusive rights to decisions about team selections either.

Like many supporters, I am really really disappointed that Marcus Windhager has been unable to get named in the best 22 this year, but I also understand that we on the outside are not in position to know the exact reason why he has been left out, there obviously are good reasons that we're not aware of...

I've been keeping records of stats this season. For example, we're all in agreement that St Kilda's midfield is pretty mediocre compared to the top teams, but despite this, apart from games against Adelaide and the Giants, St Kilda have won the clearances in all the other nine.

Where they have failed is in the delivery to the forwards, so in fact the blokes who get first or subsequent hands on the ball after a stoppage or centre bounce lack the skill/competence to find a team mate further down the ground.

This was a major issue in the 2nd half last year, and quite obviously that remains to be solved. There are still too many players, Ross and Gresham the main culprits, who get the ball and kick it sky high into the forward 50, much to the dismay of the forwards who, in Jason Dunstall's words, "stand and wait for the ball to come down the chimney"!

As I said recently, I've lowered my expectations for this season because even if they win another 7 games and play finals, they're unlikely to advance to a Prelim.....the list is still in need of at least 4 or 5 A grade players, some of who will come from the current crop of yound draftees and maybe 1 or 2 from other clubs.

And for those Sainters who feel totally shattered, spare a thought for the 'bluebaggers' - a team sparkling with genuine elite talent but playing like a bunch of amateurs!

[SaintPav]

Fair and reasonable assessment by King.

[Banger9798]

Perhaps the much maligned role Cordy was playing is more valuable than many on here realised too?

Not unless he was playing in the middle.

Conversion from F50 entries not a problem. Or at least not our primary problem.

No Cordy, No StKilda

[bigcarl]

If this is truly an exploration year…then ffs explore!
Change the midfield guard/mix now
STOP pretending this workmanlike midfield is going to get us there - it won’t

Yep, agree. Owens/Windy. Find a way to get them in there.

Btw, does anyone have any news on Hunter Clark? Serious knee or just a tweak? I like Clarke in the midfield mix as I think his vision and evasive skills in traffic offer a point of difference. It’s a blow if he is out.

[Vortex]

So it is the list???


Last year it was the coach?

I laugh at this whole BS claim that this year is an "exploration" year.

Why is 1 year needed?

So does the magic happen at the end of the season? Do we start 2024 with a list that can contend after our "exploration" year?

Just makes me laugh when I hear fans roll out the "exploration" line like a clueless and desperate nutter.

A quality list + a quality coach = premiership.

It ain't rocket surgery

Why does a year to work out who will/won’t cut the mustard mean 2024 we start the year as flag favourites?
The only nutter here is the nuff nuff who can’t get the premise that the coach (like he did in 08) will use the year to learn plenty about the list
It really isn’t that hard….if you’re not trolling of course ..,
Otherwise…troll away!

so we won't be contenders next year either? remind me again, when will this list be contending?

Another chicken that's coming home to roost is the legend that Lyon get's the best out of his player, now whilst this is a true statement for some players, for many others it is not, one only needs to look at Lyon's last failed attempt to rebuild the Freo list. Many a player just didn't come up to GF quality, some did but most didn't.

Same issue with this list I recon, if say the improvement Lyon can develop in a player is 5-10% but the player needs 10-15% to get up to GF quality then that is on the quality of the player which comes back to my firm belief, a belief that is well known in the AFL, and that is, a good coach is only as good as his list, the two go hand-in-hand.

This list needs a serious turn over and I believe this point was Lyon's sell to Bassett, and as such he will need every bit of his 4 year contract to rebuild the list if we are to become a GF quality list.

How we do that is going to be incredibly hard as it always is, especially for a poor bottom dwelling club like ours, hence my skepticism about Lyon and his magic trick that no other coach or club has yet to find.

Lyon is a fantastic coach, but he isn't a magician which if I think back to the hysteria from the fanboys over the pre season I could have sworn Lyon was best mates with David Copperfield.

and a footnote on how hard it is to build a list: Tasmania coming into the comp is going hurt us badly, as it did when GWS and GCSs entered the comp, arguably the new franchises have been a contributing factor to us remaining at t he bottom of the ladder since Lyon was last in charge.

If you look at the past like five years there's almost always been a period where we fall away. Even in 2020 we limped to the finals.

So the immediate challenge for Lyon is to find a way to get the side playing good footy again and get into the finals. We can turn the list over all we want but if remain inconsistent we'll achieve nothing.

We went toe to toe with Collingwood and trounced some good sides this year. We are better than what we are dishing up, this current situation has been recurring and the immediate challenge for Lyon has to be to change this situation and get some confidence into the group.

Unfortunately we went toe-to-toe with the Pies early in the season, who knows how they will be performing when it matters and so we will only know we have a GF quality side when we go toe-to-toe with a side in the final two weeks of a finals series.

That's the only reference point that should be used for measuring performances capable of winning some silverware.

And as far as confidence goes, confidence also has to be gained in that final 2 weeks for confidence to matter.

We are a fair way off GF pace.

[Otiman]

King must be doing his research here.

Also I spare no thought for Carlton, other than "suffer in ya jocks".

[Teflon]

So it is the list???


Last year it was the coach?

I laugh at this whole BS claim that this year is an "exploration" year.

Why is 1 year needed?

So does the magic happen at the end of the season? Do we start 2024 with a list that can contend after our "exploration" year?

Just makes me laugh when I hear fans roll out the "exploration" line like a clueless and desperate nutter.

A quality list + a quality coach = premiership.

It ain't rocket surgery

Why does a year to work out who will/won’t cut the mustard mean 2024 we start the year as flag favourites?
The only nutter here is the nuff nuff who can’t get the premise that the coach (like he did in 08) will use the year to learn plenty about the list
It really isn’t that hard….if you’re not trolling of course ..,
Otherwise…troll away!

so we won't be contenders next year either? remind me again, when will this list be contending?

Another chicken that's coming home to roost is the legend that Lyon get's the best out of his player, now whilst this is a true statement for some players, for many others it is not, one only needs to look at Lyon's last failed attempt to rebuild the Freo list. Many a player just didn't come up to GF quality, some did but most didn't.

Same issue with this list I recon, if say the improvement Lyon can develop in a player is 5-10% but the player needs 10-15% to get up to GF quality then that is on the quality of the player which comes back to my firm belief, a belief that is well known in the AFL, and that is, a good coach is only as good as his list, the two go hand-in-hand.

This list needs a serious turn over and I believe this point was Lyon's sell to Bassett, and as such he will need every bit of his 4 year contract to rebuild the list if we are to become a GF quality list.

How we do that is going to be incredibly hard as it always is, especially for a poor bottom dwelling club like ours, hence my skepticism about Lyon and his magic trick that no other coach or club has yet to find.

Lyon is a fantastic coach, but he isn't a magician which if I think back to the hysteria from the fanboys over the pre season I could have sworn Lyon was best mates with David Copperfield.

and a footnote on how hard it is to build a list: Tasmania coming into the comp is going hurt us badly, as it did when GWS and GCSs entered the comp, arguably the new franchises have been a contributing factor to us remaining at t he bottom of the ladder since Lyon was last in charge.

Do you think (after you keep telling us it will take Lyon 4 years to resolve list issues) that we’ll be genuinely contending next season????
What is it??? You just whingeing both ways again???
Get off the fence - when will we contend in your world Cairnsman??
I think you’d be better with this on Bigfooty …they at least know how to laugh you off there…

[Teflon]

Our losses against Hawthorn, Adelaide, and Port Adelaide were down to one thing.

Getting smashed in the midfield

Lyon has already identified our midfield's 'lack of spread', as he calls it. He's mentioned it a few times this year.

Ours is the slowest midfield on the comp. Unless everyone in it is 'on', then we get exploited.

The problem is, who at Sandy (or out injured) can give us that spread?

Bytel? No. Spread is is weakness

Windhager? Might be a marginal improvement in that area, but has not displayed that in the games he's played so far.

Owens? Maybe. But I see him more as a Patrick Cripps type.

Jones? Yes, for the handful of games he plays each year.




So that's where it sits. We have a problem that we cannot fix in the short term. I think Lyon's exploration year has already found the elephant in the room. We'll just have to battle on and start throwing Windhager and Owens through that midfield to see if they can give us more spark and give the opposition something to worry about.

We just have to hope that Ollie Hotton turns out to be that hard running, quick midfielder we desperately need

This is a really good post
Sadly I agree - there is no “quick fix” in the reserves
Billing’s Membrey Bytel ….not going to solve our inability to spread on the outside from midfield….
The ONLY thing we can do - is play with the mix of players we have to rotate through the midfield now
Who are the contenders that may give us sone inside/outside balance??

Owens
Windhager
Sinclair (staying)
??????
Gets thin real fast

Our 1 paced brigade?
Crouch
Steele
Ross
Clarke

I think even Pou won’t be that live breaking mid we desperately need
We have holes
It’s why I could care less about finals this year - I’m sone ways I’d take a year where the kids grow we don’t make the 8 as long as we can negotiate top 10 pick in a string draft plus sell off a so called big name or 3 get kids build hard now BEFORE Tassie

[Teflon]

If this is truly an exploration year…then ffs explore!
Change the midfield guard/mix now
STOP pretending this workmanlike midfield is going to get us there - it won’t

Yep, agree. Owens/Windy. Find a way to get them in there.

Btw, does anyone have any news on Hunter Clark? Serious knee or just a tweak? I like Clarke in the midfield mix as I think his vision and evasive skills in traffic offer a point of difference. It’s a blow if he is out.

Yeah big loss I agree
Clarke isn’t fast but his vision is a clear point of difference in there
He’s the Pendles we don’t have and speed of mind/foot/hand usually beats speed of feet anyway ….hope it’s minor …
Cupboard for genuine spread mids after that is bare I’m afraid

[SaintPav]

We could have been equal 3rd.

Thanks so much Missy Higgins.

Enjoy your break.

[mr six o'clock]

We could have been equal 3rd.

Thanks so much Missy Higgins.

Enjoy your break.

Yep
Could have been 3rd on the ladder
But the whole team was woeful
We're now 1 game ahead of freo , Adelaide and the druggies who are all playing much better than us and 2 games ahead of the pussies who have plenty of games left at home . So if I was a betting man I'd be backing us to miss the finals from here.

[The G Train Legacy]

So it is the list???


Last year it was the coach?

Sort of, specifically its the midfield. Back 6 is fine, despite some of the lunacy here regarding Howard and Battle. Forward half is good, we've got a fine big No.1 Ruck. Its the midfield.

[Teflon]

We could have been equal 3rd.

Thanks so much Missy Higgins.

Enjoy your break.

Yep
Could have been 3rd on the ladder
But the whole team was woeful
We're now 1 game ahead of freo , Adelaide and the druggies who are all playing much better than us and 2 games ahead of the pussies who have plenty of games left at home . So if I was a betting man I'd be backing us to miss the finals from here.

Honestly do you think we are the 3rd best side getting around??
A stolen win papers over cracks
We have cracks
I think we are settling back to our natural ladder position- we are not top 4 been sayin that for 3 years
Im personally not even worried about a false dawn finals appearance- been there done that in 2020
We have Tassie on the horizon
Hit the draft hard now - this year
If I was Lyon I’d let it be known our ladder position and finals is a bonus
Our development of our next top 4 list is priority - even if it costs a few games
This midfield ain’t taking us there it needs an overhaul

[The G Train Legacy]

So it is the list???


Last year it was the coach?

I laugh at this whole BS claim that this year is an "exploration" year.

Why is 1 year needed?

So does the magic happen at the end of the season? Do we start 2024 with a list that can contend after our "exploration" year?

Just makes me laugh when I hear fans roll out the "exploration" line like a clueless and desperate nutter.

A quality list + a quality coach = premiership.

It ain't rocket surgery

Why does a year to work out who will/won’t cut the mustard mean 2024 we start the year as flag favourites?
The only nutter here is the nuff nuff who can’t get the premise that the coach (like he did in 08) will use the year to learn plenty about the list
It really isn’t that hard….if you’re not trolling of course ..,
Otherwise…troll away!

Glad you mention 2008. We finished Top 4 but were not a Top 4 team, we only won 13 games to finish 4th, some years that doesn't get you in the 8, usually it means you finish 8th.

In the Qualifying Final Geelong smashed us, if they hadn't put the cue in the rack it would've been a 100 pointer. We won the semi against Collingwood and then Hawthorn destroyed us in the Prelim. Again, if Haw hadn't put the cue in the rack after half time, that was another 100 pointer.

At the end of 08 we were at least 12 goals behind Hawthorn & Geelong, not to mention about 7 or 8 behind the Bulldogs. We bridged a chasm in 2009.

We are not that far behind the best teams at the moment.

[The G Train Legacy]

People need to stop panicking. We know and no doubt Lyon knows our weaknesses.

Hawthorn are a team going places. I was guilty of thinking that GWS were a stiffer opponent than Hawthorn would be. I was rudely surprised by how big and strong they were. They're far better than GWS, who rolled Geelong at Geelong this week.

In fact they're far better than these teams, at least when we played them: GWS, Freo, Bulldogs, Essendon, Gold Coast, Carlton and North. I also think they were harder to play against than Port even though Port are better. Only Collingwood and Adelaide were clearly superior.

Regardless of how much it matters in the long term, I think we'll play Finals and even win one. However, I think we'll need to change the midfield for that to happen.

[Annoyedsaint]

Don’t panic…
Talk of rebuilds….

How about some freeekin’ results for once.
Tired of the pathetic excuses year after year after year.

Hawks side is s*** on paper and if they are back playing finals in a year or two then what does that say?

We’ve had so many years at the bottom to bottom 6 and STILL can’t do anything decent and maintain it for half a season let alone a full season and then multiple seasons on end. It’s actually laughable.

[SaintPav]

Sue people for wanting to beat a bottom team and wanting to finish as high up the ladder as possible.

[Teflon]

People need to stop panicking. We know and no doubt Lyon knows our weaknesses.

Hawthorn are a team going places. I was guilty of thinking that GWS were a stiffer opponent than Hawthorn would be. I was rudely surprised by how big and strong they were. They're far better than GWS, who rolled Geelong at Geelong this week.

In fact they're far better than these teams, at least when we played them: GWS, Freo, Bulldogs, Essendon, Gold Coast, Carlton and North. I also think they were harder to play against than Port even though Port are better. Only Collingwood and Adelaide were clearly superior.

Regardless of how much it matters in the long term, I think we'll play Finals and even win one. However, I think we'll need to change the midfield for that to happen.

I must say Hawks size and physicality surprised me also - I felt like it was boys up against giants (not gws ones either) at times
They just physically busted through tackles and looked far more imposing
The re-match will be interesting
It’s a bloody even comp right now that’s for sure
Suns beat dogs
Freo Melb
GWS - Cats
But when a kids midfield smashes it’s more senior so called 5th best side in the comps ….it’s time to look at the midfield
Lyons mentioned the lack of spread multiple times
It’s not like he has C Judd in reserves ready to change it..

[Teflon]

Actually just on Hawks ….think they have a decent young side coming
How’d they get it???
Took some pain
Moved on Mitchell Gunston
Got draft picks
Will get even better draft picks this year…
There’s no secret that’s the model …but we are too s*** scared to do it …
I really could not give a shyte if we make finals
Just get draft picks ffs and stockpile now this year
Trade out Gresham Membrey??? Be bold get talent as we are doing ourselves no favours staying in mediocre no man’s land again this year
Have to be bold

[The G Train Legacy]

People need to stop panicking. We know and no doubt Lyon knows our weaknesses.

Hawthorn are a team going places. I was guilty of thinking that GWS were a stiffer opponent than Hawthorn would be. I was rudely surprised by how big and strong they were. They're far better than GWS, who rolled Geelong at Geelong this week.

In fact they're far better than these teams, at least when we played them: GWS, Freo, Bulldogs, Essendon, Gold Coast, Carlton and North. I also think they were harder to play against than Port even though Port are better. Only Collingwood and Adelaide were clearly superior.

Regardless of how much it matters in the long term, I think we'll play Finals and even win one. However, I think we'll need to change the midfield for that to happen.

I must say Hawks size and physicality surprised me also - I felt like it was boys up against giants (not gws ones either) at times
They just physically busted through tackles and looked far more imposing
The re-match will be interesting
It’s a bloody even comp right now that’s for sure
Suns beat dogs
Freo Melb
GWS - Cats
But when a kids midfield smashes it’s more senior so called 5th best side in the comps ….it’s time to look at the midfield
Lyons mentioned the lack of spread multiple times
It’s not like he has C Judd in reserves ready to change it..

We have Sinclair and Owens, question is can we cover Sinclair across half back. That would improve things in the interim, any further improvements need to come from outside.

You're right about Ross, as good as he has been, he has limitations that will get exposed deep in Finals. Crouch is also a very good player, but I wonder if in addition to Steele, he makes our midfield a bit one dimensional.

I wouldn't be surprised if we trade Ross, Gresham and perhaps Crouch at seasons end.

[Teflon]

Could be a real clean out
Go back to go forwards
I’m ok with that
These past 6-9 years in no man’s land….not really contending…getting a good draw 1 year and bobbing up into 8th ….just does nothing for me
Worst possible result for us - not seriously good enough
Only get lower picks
Hawks are on right path - sure they’ll lose games but there’s sone skill there (and size!)

[meher baba]

Talk of clean outs is silly, beyond those who have been injured and who might never reach the level of fitness that Lyon is looking for.

We have few players for whom we’d get anything worthwhile in a trade, apart from those whom we don’t want to give up: King, Owens, NWM, Sinclair, Steele, Wilkie and perhaps Marshall. I am sure that most posters have a list of favourite scapegoats that they would like to trade, but most of them would have bugger all trade value.

We’ve had a big injection of highly promising new talent in the past two drafts: NWM, Windhager, Owens, Phillipou and perhaps a few of the young guys still playing at the Zebras: Van Es, Keeler, etc. Perhaps Caminiti too. It will be hard to do much more in this year’s draft given that we’re likely to finish in the top half of the table.

We’re more likely to look again for proven midfield talent through free agency or by trading draft picks. Going after De Goey was a sensible move. We desperately need one or more players of that type. Owens and Phillipou are part of the answer but Sinclair isn’t IMO: he’s far better on the half back line.

But, however you look at it, we are light on for midfield talent.The good news is that we’re ok in most other areas. Our existing young talent might even eventually solve the midfield problem, but trades could also help.

[lewdogs]

Don’t panic…
Talk of rebuilds….

How about some freeekin’ results for once.
Tired of the pathetic excuses year after year after year.

Hawks side is s*** on paper and if they are back playing finals in a year or two then what does that say?

We’ve had so many years at the bottom to bottom 6 and STILL can’t do anything decent and maintain it for half a season let alone a full season and then multiple seasons on end. It’s actually laughable.

We are fifth on the ladder in a season no one predicted us to finish in the eight, and many had us as a bottom four side.

Results wise we are performing well above expectations, with an entirely new coaching panel.

Not sure it's panic stations yet.

[SaintPav]

Pelchen traded out a few.

How did that work out?!