Is Lyon mark 2 the right fit for the saints

[Scollop]

That’s my crap - don’t like it?
Don’t read it.

Sorry. You're not getting away with it

I'll continue to call it out

[Josh Battle]

Regardless not sure what those “hard hitting opinion pieces” prove

The headline in the first article says it all

‘Chaos in the front office and a toxic culture at training: Why the Dockers had to sack Ross Lyon’

….but what is equally as concerning as the toxic relationships between player and coach and support staff and coach is the fact that the fans stayed away in droves. Did you read the last paragraph about their fall in membership in 2019?

[Vortex]

RLs winning percentage in his last 4 years at Freo was 33%

Why does that statistic seem familiar?

[Impatient Sainter]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A sound response, surely people recognise that stats can be manipulated to support any arguement? I cant believe the level of doubt over a coach that was a 'toe poke' & 'bounce of the ball' from bringing us two flags. You only have to look at the great coaches around the world, most have been in their latter years after decades in the game. Have they evolved over those years absolutley. I have no doubt RTB will be an improved version of the 2009/2010 of himself.

[Vortex]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A sound response, surely people recognise that stats can be manipulated to support any arguement? I cant believe the level of doubt over a coach that was a 'toe poke' & 'bounce of the ball' from bringing us two flags. You only have to look at the great coaches around the world, most have been in their latter years after decades in the game. Have they evolved over those years absolutley. I have no doubt RTB will be an improved version of the 2009/2010 of himself.

It would seem injury numbers can also be manipulated to suit an argument, Brother Teffers has never given any of our sacked coaches sympathy or consideration for poor results but it would appear Ross gets a massive get out of jail card for a 33% win rate at Freo because of injuries...go figure.

[Impatient Sainter]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A sound response, surely people recognise that stats can be manipulated to support any arguement? I cant believe the level of doubt over a coach that was a 'toe poke' & 'bounce of the ball' from bringing us two flags. You only have to look at the great coaches around the world, most have been in their latter years after decades in the game. Have they evolved over those years absolutley. I have no doubt RTB will be an improved version of the 2009/2010 of himself.

It would seem injury numbers can also be manipulated to suit an argument, Brother Teffers has never given any of our sacked coaches sympathy or consideration for poor results but it would appear Ross gets a massive get out of jail card for a 33% win rate at Freo because of injuries...go figure.

It doesnt matter how good anyone is they need the players with ability to get the results. Freo went through a rebuilding phase and where they were playing kids probably before they were ready and exposed them to long term injuries. In the past we have done the same as injuries effect every club and you need good management and some luck. Our issue is we stick with injury prone players far too long in the hope they will all of a sudden come good. Or we bring in injured or flawed players from other clubs thinking we can turn them around.

If we can learn to cut the 'umbilical cord' while players still have some trade value we will able to forge a much stronger list.

[Vortex]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A sound response, surely people recognise that stats can be manipulated to support any arguement? I cant believe the level of doubt over a coach that was a 'toe poke' & 'bounce of the ball' from bringing us two flags. You only have to look at the great coaches around the world, most have been in their latter years after decades in the game. Have they evolved over those years absolutley. I have no doubt RTB will be an improved version of the 2009/2010 of himself.

It would seem injury numbers can also be manipulated to suit an argument, Brother Teffers has never given any of our sacked coaches sympathy or consideration for poor results but it would appear Ross gets a massive get out of jail card for a 33% win rate at Freo because of injuries...go figure.

It doesnt matter how good anyone is they need the players with ability to get the results. Freo went through a rebuilding phase and where they were playing kids probably before they were ready and exposed them to long term injuries. In the past we have done the same as injuries effect every club and you need good management and some luck. Our issue is we stick with injury prone players far too long in the hope they will all of a sudden come good. Or we bring in injured or flawed players from other clubs thinking we can turn them around.

If we can learn to cut the 'umbilical cord' while players still have some trade value we will able to forge a much stronger list.

Do you think the St Kilda faithful will give Ross 4 years if his win rate is 33% over that time, I'd suggest he won't get past year 2 with a win rate of 33%, therein lies the fundamental flaw with the administration at St Kilda over a 150 year journey.

[Sanctorum]

Do you think the St Kilda faithful with give Ross 4 years if his win rate is 33% over that time, I'd suggest he won't get past year 2 with a win rate of 33%, therein lies the fundamental flaw with the administration at St Kilda over a 150 year journey.

You're probably right Vortex, if Lyon fails to achieve at least the same record inherited form Brett Ratten in 2021/2022, around 50%, there will certainly be some that will say: "told you Lyon wasn't going to do any bloody good" or similar.

In fact there are a fair few "supporters" out there that are hoping like hell that he's going to fail I hope you're not one of them!

What you and others fail to understand is that simply switching from Ratten to Lyon was not the only change that's occurred at Linton Street in the last three months.

In actual fact, the decisions by Andrew Bassat and his directors to carry out a complete overhaul of the football department is probably unprecedented and quite fitting in this 150 year milestone.

The return 'home' to Moorabbin by Lenny Hayes and Robert Harvey as assistant coaches, plus Brendon Goddard, calculated to introduce a winning culture in the playing group - a strategy implemented with great effect by Geelong, among others, should not be underestimated.

Matt Finnis was replaced by Simon Lethlean as CEO.

Geoff Walsh, one of the most experienced and respected AFL aministrators in the business was lured out of retirement to become Footy Supremo. His record of success speaks for itself and he will make sure Ross Lyon is held to full account for the way the team performs.

By any measure, all of these changes are massive and have led to a vastly improved atmosphere around St Kilda which has been widely acclaimed as very positive by the footy media.

Despite all of this, there are still some 'supporters' out there that are unconvinced that things will get better

Personally I am convinced that our footy team will not go backwards in 2023 - quite the opposite, they only need to win 2 more games than they did in 2022 to secure a spot in the top 8, my money is on them doing exactly that!

[Josh Battle]

Personally I am convinced that our footy team will not go backwards in 2023 - quite the opposite, they only need to win 2 more games than they did in 2022 to secure a spot in the top 8, my money is on them doing exactly that!

If the club is serious about winning a premiership and not just trying to make up the numbers and slide into 8th spot every ten years, then they have to follow through with rebuilding and provide opportunities to our youth and be patient.

I think our drafting is contrary to a team looking for short term fixes to our list. There’s every possibility we could be sitting in 9th-12th for the next two years.

Our president sat on the fence a couple of months ago. He said we could go backwards!! Remember the press conferences?

People’s hopes need to be aligned with the club’s strategic plans and goals so that members don’t place too much expectation on our players and coaches. They’ll be hounded by the media so we don’t have to add to that pressure over the next 2 years.

We had been looking for short cuts with our recruiting of ready made players at the end of 2018/2019/2020

What we need is the club to have a long term plan. Create the environment and build the foundations so that you give yourselves every chance to compete with the very best teams. They need to constantly communicate clearly with their members during this next phase.

They need to honestly assess where our list sits compared to our competitors. They need to be honest about our chances for a quick rise up the ladder. I want to see strength and unity across all areas of our football department. I want to see a united board and I want to see a club focussed on 2025 and beyond.

[Scollop]

What can we learn from the Premiers of the last few years?

Did Geelong all of a sudden make the 8 one year ...then slip out for two years... and then all of a sudden win the flag a year later?

You can't ignore the list make up of their side, but park it aside for a moment and think about their journey from a fan perspective... and just focus on finals finishes. Geelong lost a Grand Final in 2020. They have been there abouts for five-six years

We have to build slowly and earn the right to be challengers. We have to go through the pain of a GF loss or prelim finals losses imo. The experience of playing multiple finals is what is needed as well as the ability to produce our best football at the pointy end.

I could go through the same scenarios with Richmond and also Melbourne and also West Coast in 2018. All these sides had a period of growth which led to a sustained period of finals appearances, but the key is the list make up. List management is key

We need to emulate the strategies and list build from the most recent Premiership winning teams. Everything else is a side show

[Impatient Sainter]

To suggest Lyon doesnt or didnt have a grasp on our list is just plain foolish. You only have reference some of the material he did on Footy Classified, he was fully across our lists strenghts & weaknesses and the way we moved the footy.

Im sure part of the negotation before he signed on was due to him pointing out where our list is at and what they (board) should realistically expect.

[SaintPav]

In the press conference announcing him as the new coach, he suggested he hadn’t done any list analysis when considering the role. I found that a bit hard to believe.

[Vortex]

He's admitted on more than one occasion since the press conference his core belief is not to review the skill of the list before taking a coaching job, he confirms his belief is to back the player which is central to his core coaching ethos which is effort over skill.

Here's a link to an interview with Gary Lyon the morning after the interview where he states it again:

[Teflon]

Regardless not sure what those “hard hitting opinion pieces” prove

The headline in the first article says it all

‘Chaos in the front office and a toxic culture at training: Why the Dockers had to sack Ross Lyon’

….but what is equally as concerning as the toxic relationships between player and coach and support staff and coach is the fact that the fans stayed away in droves. Did you read the last paragraph about their fall in membership in 2019?

Josh dear boy
The conversation is about Lyon Mk2 what he brings to the saints
The questions relevant relate to his ability to coach NOW
Can he develop a side? Will skills go backwards blah blah
It’s NOT a running dialogue of what happened at Freo and their “culture issues” which I’m sure were not all Ross Lyon’s doing
It’s as relevant as saying he was totally responsible for St Kildas culture when he left 2011
You’re spewing up dribble
How was Lyons relationship with players at Freo? Are you suggesting the entire playing list turned against him????
Or are you picking out opinion piece articles from nuff nuff journalists who wouldn’t be within a bulls roar of the inner sanctum
Better still…,why don’t you go back and find articles on how Lyon created a toxic culture (all by himself??) at Saints and how the player’s relationship with him was fractured???
I’m sure if you look hard enough you’ll find an “opinion piece” to suit the narrative your peddling but it still proves squat in terms of his coaching ability and what he brings to Saints Mk2

[Teflon]

RLs winning percentage in his last 4 years at Freo was 33%

Why does that statistic seem familiar?

Close to Brett’s last half of the season in free fall ??

[Teflon]

The criticism and the reports in the media are from those who were at the club and who knew people who worked at the club

The pressure mounted at Freo in 2019 because their results didn’t live up to expectations

The evidence is factual history not revisionist cliched history and it’s based on Lyon’s last couple of years at Fremantle (2018 and 2019)

A sound response, surely people recognise that stats can be manipulated to support any arguement? I cant believe the level of doubt over a coach that was a 'toe poke' & 'bounce of the ball' from bringing us two flags. You only have to look at the great coaches around the world, most have been in their latter years after decades in the game. Have they evolved over those years absolutley. I have no doubt RTB will be an improved version of the 2009/2010 of himself.

It would seem injury numbers can also be manipulated to suit an argument, Brother Teffers has never given any of our sacked coaches sympathy or consideration for poor results but it would appear Ross gets a massive get out of jail card for a 33% win rate at Freo because of injuries...go figure.

Lol now Brett was decimated by injuries??
I do find my skin moves when you refer to me as brother Teffers … I was more public school than catholic boarding but I get it may be hard for you to let go.

[Teflon]

Do you think the St Kilda faithful with give Ross 4 years if his win rate is 33% over that time, I'd suggest he won't get past year 2 with a win rate of 33%, therein lies the fundamental flaw with the administration at St Kilda over a 150 year journey.

You're probably right Vortex, if Lyon fails to achieve at least the same record inherited form Brett Ratten in 2021/2022, around 50%, there will certainly be some that will say: "told you Lyon wasn't going to do any bloody good" or similar.

In fact there are a fair few "supporters" out there that are hoping like hell that he's going to fail I hope you're not one of them!

What you and others fail to understand is that simply switching from Ratten to Lyon was not the only change that's occurred at Linton Street in the last three months.

In actual fact, the decisions by Andrew Bassat and his directors to carry out a complete overhaul of the football department is probably unprecedented and quite fitting in this 150 year milestone.

The return 'home' to Moorabbin by Lenny Hayes and Robert Harvey as assistant coaches, plus Brendon Goddard, calculated to introduce a winning culture in the playing group - a strategy implemented with great effect by Geelong, among others, should not be underestimated.

Matt Finnis was replaced by Simon Lethlean as CEO.

Geoff Walsh, one of the most experienced and respected AFL aministrators in the business was lured out of retirement to become Footy Supremo. His record of success speaks for itself and he will make sure Ross Lyon is held to full account for the way the team performs.

By any measure, all of these changes are massive and have led to a vastly improved atmosphere around St Kilda which has been widely acclaimed as very positive by the footy media.

Despite all of this, there are still some 'supporters' out there that are unconvinced that things will get better

Personally I am convinced that our footy team will not go backwards in 2023 - quite the opposite, they only need to win 2 more games than they did in 2022 to secure a spot in the top 8, my money is on them doing exactly that!

Superb post
Bang on

[Teflon]

Personally I am convinced that our footy team will not go backwards in 2023 - quite the opposite, they only need to win 2 more games than they did in 2022 to secure a spot in the top 8, my money is on them doing exactly that!

If the club is serious about winning a premiership and not just trying to make up the numbers and slide into 8th spot every ten years, then they have to follow through with rebuilding and provide opportunities to our youth and be patient.

I think our drafting is contrary to a team looking for short term fixes to our list. There’s every possibility we could be sitting in 9th-12th for the next two years.

Our president sat on the fence a couple of months ago. He said we could go backwards!! Remember the press conferences?

People’s hopes need to be aligned with the club’s strategic plans and goals so that members don’t place too much expectation on our players and coaches. They’ll be hounded by the media so we don’t have to add to that pressure over the next 2 years.

We had been looking for short cuts with our recruiting of ready made players at the end of 2018/2019/2020

What we need is the club to have a long term plan. Create the environment and build the foundations so that you give yourselves every chance to compete with the very best teams. They need to constantly communicate clearly with their members during this next phase.

They need to honestly assess where our list sits compared to our competitors. They need to be honest about our chances for a quick rise up the ladder. I want to see strength and unity across all areas of our football department. I want to see a united board and I want to see a club focussed on 2025 and beyond.

I get the feeling the review uncovered our previous footy brains trust of Lethlean, Bassat, Ratten and co were on the wrong path and gilding the Lilly in terms of our list capability.
I suspect (too late for my liking) and the Board have been told you’re quality short and you need to hit the draft
We did last year to good effect
Have again this year and no doubt will next year
They’ve also appointed an experienced coach for 4 years
ADMITTED they may go backwards first
Appointed a respected head of footy
Should Bassat have done this earlier? Yep
I’m just glad he’s done it
You don’t think any of the above screams we have finally realised we need to take a longer term approach??????

[Teflon]

He's admitted on more than one occasion since the press conference his core belief is not to review the skill of the list before taking a coaching job, he confirms his belief is to back the player which is central to his core coaching ethos which is effort over skill.

Here's a link to an interview with Gary Lyon the morning after the interview where he states it again:

And the point of this might be…..??????
He has also indicated he’ll be out of the weeds and allow his assistants a greater hands on role in coaching (I suspect training and skill development….Goddard already been heavily involved)
He also has an expert in biomechanics in Rath at his disposal to assist in skills
I’d say with those names dedicated to game plan and skill development IF Lyon can draw consistent effort from a playing list that of late has been up/down all over the place under cuddles for effort then the mix is a good one???
Don’t see the issue at all but you’ll find one keep digging!

[Teflon]

That’s my crap - don’t like it?
Don’t read it.

Sorry. You're not getting away with it

I'll continue to call it out

Goody
Everyone should have their own pet stalker - I have you
You keep “calling me out” with your razor sharp footy intellect…but do at least try keep up and stay on topic.

[Josh Battle]

Regardless not sure what those “hard hitting opinion pieces” prove

The headline in the first article says it all

‘Chaos in the front office and a toxic culture at training: Why the Dockers had to sack Ross Lyon’

….but what is equally as concerning as the toxic relationships between player and coach and support staff and coach is the fact that the fans stayed away in droves. Did you read the last paragraph about their fall in membership in 2019?

Josh dear boy
The conversation is about Lyon Mk2 what he brings to the saints
The questions relevant relate to his ability to coach NOW
Can he develop a side? Will skills go backwards blah blah
It’s NOT a running dialogue of what happened at Freo and their “culture issues” which I’m sure were not all Ross Lyon’s doing
It’s as relevant as saying he was totally responsible for St Kildas culture when he left 2011
You’re spewing up dribble
How was Lyons relationship with players at Freo? Are you suggesting the entire playing list turned against him????
Or are you picking out opinion piece articles from nuff nuff journalists who wouldn’t be within a bulls roar of the inner sanctum
Better still…,why don’t you go back and find articles on how Lyon created a toxic culture (all by himself??) at Saints and how the player’s relationship with him was fractured???
I’m sure if you look hard enough you’ll find an “opinion piece” to suit the narrative your peddling but it still proves squat in terms of his coaching ability and what he brings to Saints Mk2

I’m probably older than you

….dear boy

Just because you pretend to be a know it all authority, doesn’t mean much when it comes to predicting football outcomes and results for us under Lyon Mk 2. We’ll see how he responds to the pressures of L’s versus W’s after a couple of years back in the fold

I’m tipping a tough first year in 2023

[Josh Battle]

Personally I am convinced that our footy team will not go backwards in 2023 - quite the opposite, they only need to win 2 more games than they did in 2022 to secure a spot in the top 8, my money is on them doing exactly that!

If the club is serious about winning a premiership and not just trying to make up the numbers and slide into 8th spot every ten years, then they have to follow through with rebuilding and provide opportunities to our youth and be patient.

I think our drafting is contrary to a team looking for short term fixes to our list. There’s every possibility we could be sitting in 9th-12th for the next two years.

Our president sat on the fence a couple of months ago. He said we could go backwards!! Remember the press conferences?

People’s hopes need to be aligned with the club’s strategic plans and goals so that members don’t place too much expectation on our players and coaches. They’ll be hounded by the media so we don’t have to add to that pressure over the next 2 years.

We had been looking for short cuts with our recruiting of ready made players at the end of 2018/2019/2020

What we need is the club to have a long term plan. Create the environment and build the foundations so that you give yourselves every chance to compete with the very best teams. They need to constantly communicate clearly with their members during this next phase.

They need to honestly assess where our list sits compared to our competitors. They need to be honest about our chances for a quick rise up the ladder. I want to see strength and unity across all areas of our football department. I want to see a united board and I want to see a club focussed on 2025 and beyond.

I get the feeling the review uncovered our previous footy brains trust of Lethlean, Bassat, Ratten and co were on the wrong path and gilding the Lilly in terms of our list capability.
I suspect (too late for my liking) and the Board have been told you’re quality short and you need to hit the draft
We did last year to good effect
Have again this year and no doubt will next year
They’ve also appointed an experienced coach for 4 years
ADMITTED they may go backwards first
Appointed a respected head of footy
Should Bassat have done this earlier? Yep
I’m just glad he’s done it
You don’t think any of the above screams we have finally realised we need to take a longer term approach??????

And … finally…Teflon has stumbled onto the crux of the argument.

When you read the topic headline, did you think it was a statement? It’s a bloody question isn’t it mate?!

Let me ask one simple question: Does Ross Lyon have a reputation for taking the long term approach? I posted those articles about Freo because Ross couldn’t help himself during their rebuild and before they were ready as a team to challenge for finals he was looking to import ready made players.

You obviously think we chose the right guy with Ross Lyon. I don’t.

In my personal opinion (and I’m allowed to have this opinion) I reckon every decision made has been good for our club except the decision to change the head coach

I know you think your multiple question marks provide emphasis and makes you think your allegiance to the club is asserted more strongly than other posters…but it doesn’t.

[Josh Battle]

I know that it’s super important for the players to unite and for the club to unite and move forward, but that doesn’t mean I have to be a sheep.

I’ll continue to support the club and I hope Lyon Mk 2 is a different beast to the bloke who once stated he was a ‘career coach’ who didn’t feel the need to bear any allegiance to the St Kilda FC

We’ll see after a couple of years if he reverts back to a short-term-selfish-career saving approach instead of the longer term what’s-best-for-St Kilda approach

[Scollop]

That’s my crap - don’t like it?
Don’t read it.

Sorry. You're not getting away with it

I'll continue to call it out

Goody
Everyone should have their own pet stalker - I have you
You keep “calling me out” with your razor sharp footy intellect…but do at least try keep up and stay on topic.

You make me laugh
How is it that you keep responding to my posts but somehow I'm the stalker

Go back a couple of pages on this thread mate. Once again YOU are the one who starts the tit for tat.

What did you say earlier? 'don't like it... don't read it!' Why don't you follow your own advice

Happy to match plebs like you on footy but the main reason I respond to your posts is because my bs detector goes haywire

[WellardSaint]

To suggest Lyon doesnt or didnt have a grasp on our list is just plain foolish. You only have reference some of the material he did on Footy Classified, he was fully across our lists strenghts & weaknesses and the way we moved the footy.

Im sure part of the negotation before he signed on was due to him pointing out where our list is at and what they (board) should realistically expect.

Agree with you on this.
He was all over our list, its pros and cons, during his media stint.
I imagine during down time, while others might play golf etc, he was thinking about what he'd be doing if he was coach.
Who would he try to recruit? Who would he drop?
What strategies on match day?
He says he didn't really think about our list
Of course he did.
It's like how some folk wonder about their ex-partners. Our club was never far from his mind.
It's why he jumped at the chance to return