Rendell’s rant

[Scollop]

I love it. Rendell says we would have won 3 flags under GT if he wasn’t sacked but you say that GT had the best ever team.

See the irony there? Both are opinions Joff and they are not FACTS

I’ve posted the links regarding what Lyon said about his squad in April 2011 and that he was questioning whether they were good enough or resilient enough to challenge again....What other facts do you need regarding his words and his actions? This was a coach who planted the seeds of doubt in his players minds with some very negative words which were profound in the context of our last two finals campaigns and the issues with personal stress that had affected our captain and the whole playing squad.

Do you know what the problem with Lyon was? He wasn’t in it for the benefit of the St Kilda football club. I don’t give a toss if some of his former players love him or loathe him...that’s not the point. A lot of footy players wouldn’t know what was going on or how certain acts or words were affecting them...they just need a leader to unite the group and maintain the hunger and the desire to try and achieve success for the footy club and its members.

He had no emotional attachment to the st Kilda FC and he couldn’t care less what state he left us in. His was a flawed philosophy with regard to his predictable game plan, his game day coaching, his team selection and flawed drafting and development decisions led by him which would leave us in a trough for years to come.

It’s easy to start name calling instead of looking at things rationally. Why are people so upset about Matt’s opinion?

History will record one bloke who helped create the environment and the foundations for sustained success at the football club and another bloke who came in and stuffed up the best opportunity of a lifetime. Simples

[takeaway]

I love it. Rendell says we would have won 3 flags under GT if he wasn’t sacked but you say that GT had the best ever team.

See the irony there? Both are opinions Joff and they are not FACTS

I’ve posted the links regarding what Lyon said about his squad in April 2011 and that he was questioning whether they were good enough or resilient enough to challenge again....What other facts do you need regarding his words and his actions? This was a coach who planted the seeds of doubt in his players minds with some very negative words which were profound in the context of our last two finals campaigns and the issues with personal stress that had affected our captain and the whole playing squad.

Do you know what the problem with Lyon was? He wasn’t in it for the benefit of the St Kilda football club. I don’t give a toss if some of his former players love him or loathe him...that’s not the point. A lot of footy players wouldn’t know what was going on or how certain acts or words were affecting them...they just need a leader to unite the group and maintain the hunger and the desire to try and achieve success for the footy club and its members.

He had no emotional attachment to the st Kilda FC and he couldn’t care less what state he left us in. His was a flawed philosophy with regard to his predictable game plan, his game day coaching, his team selection and flawed drafting and development decisions led by him which would leave us in a trough for years to come.

It’s easy to start name calling instead of looking at things rationally. Why are people so upset about Matt’s opinion?

History will record one bloke who helped create the environment and the foundations for sustained success at the football club and another bloke who came in and stuffed up the best opportunity of a lifetime. Simples

I don't know what's up with these AFL coaches, denigrating their team early in the season, especially after a run of years in finals. What would it do to their confidence?

https://www.afl.com.au/news/131326/blun ... f-the-road

Shame Clarko shame.

They obviously haven't read the Scolops book of coaching.

[Scollop]

How would you have gone in a debating team where you get judged on relevance and strength of content...I’ll tell you how

You would earn zero!!

Did the Hawks just play off in the 2017 and 2018 Grand Finals?

Find a quote from any coach in the history of AFL or VFL who has doubted his team ONLY 6 months after being a GF challenger. Lyon contemplated whether they had the resilience to challenge again and he wasn’t just trying to motivate his chargers. He was questioning the character of some of his players.

He was serious when he said it was the ‘end of an era’. He truly believed the team needed to rebuild because he questioned if the squad could do it and whether they were mentally tough enough. So not only was there an element of looking back in the rear view mirror and reliving how close we got, but there was this uneasy defeatist attitude which I thought was insulting for a team whose captain and most of our best players were 26/27/ or 28.

He branded them after the Elimination Final. Half the footy world believed his bulldust. I think that some of the players believed his bulldust....after all...the mantra at St Kilda was: In Lyon We Trust...wasn’t it?

[takeaway]

How would you have gone in a debating team where you get judged on relevance and strength of content...I’ll tell you how

You would earn zero!!

Did the Hawks just play off in the 2017 and 2018 Grand Finals?

Find a quote from any coach in the history of AFL or VFL who has doubted his team ONLY 6 months after being a GF challenger. Lyon contemplated whether they had the resilience or the skills to challenge again and he wasn’t just trying to motivate his chargers.

He was serious when he said it was the ‘end of an era’. He truly believed the team needed to rebuild because he questioned if the squad could do it and whether they were mentally tough enough. So not only was there an element of looking back in the rear view mirror and reliving how close we got, but there was this uneasy defeatist attitude which I thought was insulting for a team whose captain and most of our best players were 26/27/ or 28.

He branded them after the Elimination Final. Half the footy world believed his bulldust. I think that some of the players believed his bulldust....after all...the mantra at St Kilda was: In Lyon We Trust...wasn’t it?

No, the Hawks had just played 7 finals series over the last 8 years, including FOUR Grand finals. Not relevant?

Hypothetical - I know it will make you shudder, but what if at the end 2010/early 2011 the club had stopped dilly dallying about Ross's contract when he was asking, and offered him a decent contract based on performance since 2007, confirmed that mini rebuild was desirable, and he stayed. What would have happened in lieu of the Watters/Richo eras? I'm betting much more success. Still had some pretty good players playing then.

Would you have preferred more of Ross, who had full support of the players, or Watters/Richo?

[Joffa Burns]

How would you have gone in a debating team where you get judged on relevance and strength of content...I’ll tell you how

You would earn zero!!

Did the Hawks just play off in the 2017 and 2018 Grand Finals?

Find a quote from any coach in the history of AFL or VFL who has doubted his team ONLY 6 months after being a GF challenger. Lyon contemplated whether they had the resilience or the skills to challenge again and he wasn’t just trying to motivate his chargers.

He was serious when he said it was the ‘end of an era’. He truly believed the team needed to rebuild because he questioned if the squad could do it and whether they were mentally tough enough. So not only was there an element of looking back in the rear view mirror and reliving how close we got, but there was this uneasy defeatist attitude which I thought was insulting for a team whose captain and most of our best players were 26/27/ or 28.

He branded them after the Elimination Final. Half the footy world believed his bulldust. I think that some of the players believed his bulldust....after all...the mantra at St Kilda was: In Lyon We Trust...wasn’t it?

No, the Hawks had just played 7 finals series over the last 8 years, including FOUR Grand finals. Not relevant?

Hypothetical - I know it will make you shudder, but what if at the end 2010/early 2011 the club had stopped dilly dallying about Ross's contract when he was asking, and offered him a decent contract based on performance since 2007, confirmed that mini rebuild was desirable, and he stayed. What would have happened in lieu of the Watters/Richo eras? I'm betting much more success. Still had some pretty good players playing then.

Would you have preferred more of Ross, who had full support of the players, or Watters/Richo?

It's quite funny, posters pot Ross as a coach while bemoaning how he departed without realising the irony.

[BarryGrogan]

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive though.

Personnally, I didn't nor couldn't really care less how he left.

Footy people's personalities aren't of much interest to me. Nor are their motivations really.

But those that hang s*** on him for the way he left, aren't necessarily saying he should have stayed. What I'm hearing is that he wound down the team and the list, then walked with a steaming pile of s*** behind him.

Him leaving wasn't the issue. The issue is how he left, and the state of what he left behind.

[saynta]

How would you have gone in a debating team where you get judged on relevance and strength of content...I’ll tell you how

You would earn zero!!

Did the Hawks just play off in the 2017 and 2018 Grand Finals?

Find a quote from any coach in the history of AFL or VFL who has doubted his team ONLY 6 months after being a GF challenger. Lyon contemplated whether they had the resilience or the skills to challenge again and he wasn’t just trying to motivate his chargers.

He was serious when he said it was the ‘end of an era’. He truly believed the team needed to rebuild because he questioned if the squad could do it and whether they were mentally tough enough. So not only was there an element of looking back in the rear view mirror and reliving how close we got, but there was this uneasy defeatist attitude which I thought was insulting for a team whose captain and most of our best players were 26/27/ or 28.

He branded them after the Elimination Final. Half the footy world believed his bulldust. I think that some of the players believed his bulldust....after all...the mantra at St Kilda was: In Lyon We Trust...wasn’t it?

No, the Hawks had just played 7 finals series over the last 8 years, including FOUR Grand finals. Not relevant?

Hypothetical - I know it will make you shudder, but what if at the end 2010/early 2011 the club had stopped dilly dallying about Ross's contract when he was asking, and offered him a decent contract based on performance since 2007, confirmed that mini rebuild was desirable, and he stayed. What would have happened in lieu of the Watters/Richo eras? I'm betting much more success. Still had some pretty good players playing then.

Would you have preferred more of Ross, who had full support of the players, or Watters/Richo?

Grant Thomas

[Joffa Burns]

How would you have gone in a debating team where you get judged on relevance and strength of content...I’ll tell you how

You would earn zero!!

Did the Hawks just play off in the 2017 and 2018 Grand Finals?

Find a quote from any coach in the history of AFL or VFL who has doubted his team ONLY 6 months after being a GF challenger. Lyon contemplated whether they had the resilience or the skills to challenge again and he wasn’t just trying to motivate his chargers.

He was serious when he said it was the ‘end of an era’. He truly believed the team needed to rebuild because he questioned if the squad could do it and whether they were mentally tough enough. So not only was there an element of looking back in the rear view mirror and reliving how close we got, but there was this uneasy defeatist attitude which I thought was insulting for a team whose captain and most of our best players were 26/27/ or 28.

He branded them after the Elimination Final. Half the footy world believed his bulldust. I think that some of the players believed his bulldust....after all...the mantra at St Kilda was: In Lyon We Trust...wasn’t it?

No, the Hawks had just played 7 finals series over the last 8 years, including FOUR Grand finals. Not relevant?

Hypothetical - I know it will make you shudder, but what if at the end 2010/early 2011 the club had stopped dilly dallying about Ross's contract when he was asking, and offered him a decent contract based on performance since 2007, confirmed that mini rebuild was desirable, and he stayed. What would have happened in lieu of the Watters/Richo eras? I'm betting much more success. Still had some pretty good players playing then.

Would you have preferred more of Ross, who had full support of the players, or Watters/Richo?

Grant Thomas

<1 day ban for baiting>

[Harves Man]

I love it. Rendell says we would have won 3 flags under GT if he wasn’t sacked but you say that GT had the best ever team.

See the irony there? Both are opinions Joff and they are not FACTS

Very good point, Scollop - not understanding the upset here at all.

"It’s easy to start name calling instead of looking at things rationally. Why are people so upset about Matt’s opinion?"

Another great point - puzzles me as well?

[Scollop]

I love it. Rendell says we would have won 3 flags under GT if he wasn’t sacked but you say that GT had the best ever team.

See the irony there? Both are opinions Joff and they are not FACTS

Very good point, Scollop - not understanding the upset here at all.

"It’s easy to start name calling instead of looking at things rationally. Why are people so upset about Matt’s opinion?"

Another great point - puzzles me as well?

It even upset Ross Lyon. He had his back arched last night on Footy Classified on 9. Carro asked if he’d read the article and Ross went on the defensive.

So he reeled off the ‘reasons’ that he had a better record and the ‘reasons’ that under GT we weren’t in the hunt... hahaha good one Ross.

He started banging on about how ‘good’ a team Port were in 2004. What a croc. Saints were unlucky in a prelim. It was at Ports home ground and we lost a hell of a lot of momentum when the crowd ran onto the ground. They just scraped over the line in the final minutes and played a tired and worn out Lions outfit.

He talked about how ‘strong’ the Swans were in 2005...good one Ross...our injuries cost us that year. We were a great team but injuries took their toll...iirc we were up at 3 quarter time in a prelim against the eventual premiers. If Ross had 2 or 3 of his best players missing in finals in 2009/2010 how would he have gone?

What I also found intriguing was that he talked about some of the mistakes he’s made in his senior coaching and that more recently he made a big mistake in the way Fremantle had a change of captain from Matthew Pavlich to David Mundy. He said he didn’t handle that correctly and it impacted the team and perhaps he probably undermined Mundy’s captaincy. So there was more to the 0-10 result in 2016 than most of us were aware of.

Now if he admits that he made these errors in judgement when he been a senior coach for nearly 10 years then surely he can cut himself some slack about making mistakes when he first started as a senior coach with the Saints. All coaches make mistakes. Ross Lyon was just into his third year as a senior coach in 2009.

I think one day he’ll be man enough to admit that he could have done things differently with the Saints as well

[samoht]

re; the prelim vs Port, GT couldn't select Hamill as he was injured - but what was RL's excuse for not selecting Armo and Steven in the 2009 GF side?
How many errors of judgement can we overlook?

RL made another dozen or so errors of judgement with his reject recruits.

[saynta]

I love it. Rendell says we would have won 3 flags under GT if he wasn’t sacked but you say that GT had the best ever team.

See the irony there? Both are opinions Joff and they are not FACTS

Very good point, Scollop - not understanding the upset here at all.

"It’s easy to start name calling instead of looking at things rationally. Why are people so upset about Matt’s opinion?"

Another great point - puzzles me as well?

It even upset Ross Lyon. He had his back arched last night on Footy Classified on 9. Carro asked if he’d read the article and Ross went on the defensive.

So he reeled off the ‘reasons’ that he had a better record and the ‘reasons’ that under GT we weren’t in the hunt... hahaha good one Ross.

He started banging on about how ‘good’ a team Port were in 2004. What a croc. Saints were unlucky in a prelim. It was at Ports home ground and we lost a hell of a lot of momentum when the crowd ran onto the ground. They just scraped over the line in the final minutes and played a tired and worn out Lions outfit.

He talked about how ‘strong’ the Swans were in 2005...good one Ross...our injuries cost us that year. We were a great team but injuries took their toll...iirc we were up at 3 quarter time in a prelim against the eventual premiers. If Ross had 2 or 3 of his best players missing in finals in 2009/2010 how would he have gone?

What I also found intriguing was that he talked about some of the mistakes he’s made in his senior coaching and that more recently he made a big mistake in the way Fremantle had a change of captain from Matthew Pavlich to David Mundy. He said he didn’t handle that correctly and it impacted the team and perhaps he probably undermined Mundy’s captaincy. So there was more to the 0-10 result in 2016 than most of us were aware of.

Now if he admits that he made these errors in judgement when he been a senior coach for nearly 10 years then surely he can cut himself some slack about making mistakes when he first started as a senior coach with the Saints. All coaches make mistakes. Ross Lyon was just into his third year as a senior coach in 2009.

I think one day he’ll be man enough to admit that he could have done things differently with the Saints as well

The tosser man up? Never gunna happen.

[samoht]

I reckon we should have stuck with Ken Sheldon (then we wouldn't be talking about GT vs RL, etc..) - but we love sacking coaches.

Anyway, re: RL
I honestly think we weren't in a hurry to re-sign RL, following his history of poor judgement calls and after our rapid descent in 2011, when we finished behind Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, west Coast and Carlton on the ladder - yes, Carlton!

Carlton had won 2 more games (than we did) over the 2011 season - suddenly they were a better side than us!
Our fall from grace in 2011 was almost as bad as RL"s 0-10 start at Freo in 2016, after Freo made the GF the year prior!

The clubs around us were sustaining their success or improving and leap-frogging us - while we were going backwards!!!

Maybe our club wasn't in a hurry to make an error of judgement of their own by automatcially re-signing him - and left him to stew for a while?
It worked out in his favour at the end - he landed a better deal at Freo - but I applaud our club for taking their time.

[saynta]

re; the prelim vs Port, GT couldn't select Hamill as he was injured - but what was RL's excuse for not selecting Armo and Steven in the 2009 GF side?
How many errors of judgement can we overlook?

RL made another dozen or so errors of judgement with his reject recruits.

I just watched that merely mouthed arsewhipe on 9 now. What a f***wit.

We could have won that prelim final if another arsewipe named Guerra hadn't of panicked when he toe poked a point instead of a goal in those final minutes.

I have always blamed him and the invading crows for our loss that year.

[Joffa Burns]

Typical saints fans, make excuses for not being good enough.
Could have, should have, this player was injured, the Lions, the tough swans blah, blah, blah.

The Facts below support Grant Thomas massively under achieved and dispel the myth that GT got us to two prelims with a bunch of 19 & 20 year olds as in 06 we were the 2nd most experienced team in the comp but clearly on the decline.

Here are the facts:

2004 -
Ave games per player - 63.1 - 8th most experienced in AFL
Ave age per player - 23.4 years
FINISH - 3rd

2005 -
Ave games per player - 69 - 3rd most experienced in AFL
Ave age per player - 23.7 years
FINISH - premier

2006 - (funny how none of the GT apologists here ever mention 2006)
Ave games per player - 70 - 2nd most experienced in AFL
Ave age per player - 24 years
FINISH - 6th

Clearly a team in decline 3rd, 4th, 6th - and the second most experienced team in the AFL.
https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2005

And for those GT apologists that state players weren't finals hardened here are the Bulldogs 2016 stats:
2016 - Bulldogs
Ave games per player - 57.2 - 13th most experienced in AFL
Ave age per player - 23.6 years
FINISH - 4th

As a comparison in 2009:
2009 -
Ave games per player - 61.1 - 5th most experienced in AFL
Ave age per player - 23.3 years
FINISH - 2nd

Clearly Ross teams we in the right age/ experience mix, though not as mature as GT's teams he took a club on the decline in 2006 and turned it around.

To avoid opinion and again based on fact the coaching records:
GT: G 123 W 63 L 59 D 1 Win % 51.2 Finals 6 W 2 L 4 D 0 = 33%
Ross: G 305 W 172 L 128 D 5 Win % 57.1 Finals 20 W 9 L 10 D 1 = 45%

Ross was appointed coach of St Kilda after a 10 year assistant coach apprenticeship, GT got the job after he knifed Blight in the back and was appointed by his drug addict best mate when he was clearly not experienced or qualified to do the job. The cocaine sniffer gave peanut butter and jam sandwiches the keys to the Ferrari but he couldn't drive it and by 06 it was clear he'd f***ed it up as the team was in decline.

FACTS are FACTS.

Certainly shows the stupidity of Rendells comments, the team was the 2nd most experienced in the AFL in 2006 and clearly on the decline. To suggest the wonder coach could have turned that around is laughable.

[samoht]

joffa burns - I enjoy your posts and they are well considered, in the main.

But this not a formula 1 race where each driver is driving a car that's built according to a strict formula and the same specs - where you can actually see and measure the difference each driver can make as they compete head to head with their peers - you can't compare coaches the same way.

With all due respect.

I mean, how did RL go the last 4 years at Freo - an experienced coach who would have been at the peak of his coaching ability, you'd think - what was his w/l ratio then (over the last 4 years)?

Unlike F1 races, this is never a meaningful comparison to make - the coach's respective w/l ratio - considering different lists, different times, different player development cycles, different injury concerns, etc..

I judge coaches by the mistakes they make - that they shouldn't have made, and always consider their lists, and what they got right.
It's the closest I can get to judging a coach.

Based on this, RL made plenty of mistakes - but I acknowledge that he did get our soft-tissue injuries worked out, early on, when he took over from GT.
A lot of what GT got wrong didn't relate to his coaching ability - it had more to do with the fact that he asked too much of our young players, when their bodies were not up to it - in my opinion.
It explains why we slipped badly in 2004 after winning the first 10 games!!
I mean Ball in the 2005 prelim final - was running up and down on the spot, obviously was suffering badly from OP and couldn't kick the ball more than 30 metres.
In 2004, Ball was kicking the ball 60 metres - in the first 10 rounds of the 2004 season.

In the 2005 prelim final, Maguire was an 18 year old vs Hall - who took him out of the game illegally, and was allowed to get away with it. But the important thing to note is - we had an 18 year old on a key position player and match winner.
This was a huge mismatch to start off with, that Hall was allowed to illegally exploit further.
So, it's not only the age that matters - it's the match ups, mismatches, and the physical condition of the players that matters more.
You need to drill down and look at things a bit closer - more reasonably and fairly.

[Joffa Burns]

joffa boy - I enjoy your posts and they are well considered, in the main.

But this not a formula 1 race where each driver is driving a car that's built according to a strict formula and the same specs - where you can actually see and measure the difference each driver can make as they compete head to head with their peers - you can't compare coaches the same way.

With all due respect.

I mean, how did RL go the last 4 years at Freo - an experienced coach who would have been at the peak of his coaching ability, you'd think - what was his w/l ratio then (over the last 4 years)?

Unlike F1 races, this is never a meaningful comparison to make - the w/l ratio - considering different lists, different times, different player development cycles, etc..

I judge coaches by the mistakes they make - that they shouldn't have made, and always consider their lists.
It's the closest I can get to judging a coach.

Based on this, RL made plenty of mistakes - but I acknowledge that he did get our soft-tissue injuries worked out, early on, when he took over.
A lot of what GT got wrong didn't relate to his coaching ability - it had more to do with the fact that he asked too much of our young players, when their bodies were not up to it.

Don't think I'm the illustrious joffaboy

My point samoht, and you have latched onto this somewhat, is that much is written about opinion of GT V Ross and I have decided to use some researched facts in my post.

You are quite correct that there is rarely a like for like (apples for apples) comparison, however I stick to my point that Saintsational has a myth that GT achieved two Prelims against all odds with a bunch of kids "playing for him" when this is factually totally incorrect.

I have long argued that GT is overrated on this forum due to that myth and that he severely underachieved with the list profile and talent he had at his disposal. What cannot be argued is that direct comparison of age and games played showed GT teams in 05 & 06 were perfectly poised to win a flag from a profile perspective and had a much more talented list than the 09 version.

The last fact that is largely ignored on this forum is the declining 2006 performance.
Injuries decimated us and there appeared to be little in place to arrest the issues.
The club had generated into an infighting farce by the end of 06 and success cannot be obtained when there is friction between board, president and coach. The best was for all to go, but how St kilda was it all

I think your point (highlighted) is a direct contradiction and perpetuates the myth of GT and his young warriors, GT had the senior cattle and hard bodied mature players at his disposal, biggest issue he had (IMO) was his training services model and his autocratic style.

FWIW I think Ross was an innovator in 09 and I liken him to Wallace and Eade who at their peak were formidable but not great coaches, I don't rate GT as a coach worthy of receiving the opportunity (let's face it, he got it by default) or as a competent coach.

Ross is not the messiah but records show he craps all over GT as a coach.

[samoht]

Sorry, I meant joffa burns -

GT ran the team into the ground - asked too much of our youngsters (physically speaking) - after we started the season 10-0 in 2004.

Don't underestimat RL's autocratic style - the turnover/churn rate of our assistant coaches may be a clue to that.

re: the youngsters ---
GT had youngsters in important key positions - where mismatches can be made and where their lack of experience and their immature bodies, etc.. can be exploited - Ball in the centre, Maguire at CHB, Riewoldt at CHF ... Kosi was also a key-position player.

The key positions are where you need experienced players, especially in finals!

I'm not saying GT was a good coach, by the way - I'm just trying to be fair.

[BarryGrogan]

What cannot be argued is that direct comparison of age and games played showed GT teams in 05 & 06 were perfectly poised to win a flag from a profile perspective and had a much more talented list than the 09 version.

I disagree with that on a few levels.

The averages of games played and age don't mean anything at all for a start. That's certainly not what I would call a 'profile'.

The age/experience 'profile' I personally value is the number of players in the best 22 in each age/experience bracket.

But that's just the 'profile'. The key is in the detail - and where we lacked in 04 was around the age/experience of players in key roles.

We were way off in that regard. Less so in 05 - but it mattered little as simply too many key players were either unavailable or playing injured.


As for 06 - the injuries simply got worse. We play a 'home' elimination final at Melbourne's home ground and could barely find 18 guys to take the field in the 2nd half.

Most depressing time in my football supporting life was the 4 hours after half-time of that game. We were gone, and there was nothing anyone on or off the ground could do about it - and following the game I knew we'd not only been robbed of the 05 flag and any chance at the 06 one - but realistically as a group it was all over.

I didn't mind GT's coaching. I thought he was a good coach. But you couldn't disregard the horrendous run of both soft tissue and collision injuries that had occurred under him, and how it was ever going to change under his reign.

[skeptic]

Hey JB,

Out of interest, what quality or lack there of the coach do you believe hindered the 2004-06 team the most

[Joffa Burns]

Hey JB,

Out of interest, what quality or lack there of the coach do you believe hindered the 2004-06 team the most

Just a supporters opinion.

We were Geelong of the 90's, exciting, fast, skillful, well balanced list and the best to watch in the league but we were a shoot out team, keep the ball alive and drive it forward and outscore the opposition.

How often to totally offensive teams win a GF?

In 2004 we were 1st in points scored (1st being highest scored ) but 9th in points scored against 16th being best with fewest scored against.

The teams with better defensive records in 04 in order and their ladder finish were Port (1st), Cats (3rd), Lions (2nd), Swans (4th), Demons (5th), Dockers (9th), Eagles (7th).

The soft tissue injuries were reaching a ridiculous stage and what was being done to address this?
The 06 season ended very badly and the team was on the decline, a point which is never mentioned on here by the GT apologiots.

Just my 2cents worth.

[Scollop]

Hey JB,

Out of interest, what quality or lack there of the coach do you believe hindered the 2004-06 team the most

Just a supporters opinion.

We were Geelong of the 90's, exciting, fast, skillful, well balanced list and the best to watch in the league but we were a shoot out team, keep the ball alive and drive it forward and outscore the opposition.

How often to totally offensive teams win a GF?

In 2004 we were 1st in points scored (1st being highest scored ) but 9th in points scored against 16th being best with fewest scored against.

The teams with better defensive records in 04 in order and their ladder finish were Port (1st), Cats (3rd), Lions (2nd), Swans (4th), Demons (5th), Dockers (9th), Eagles (7th).

The soft tissue injuries were reaching a ridiculous stage and what was being done to address this?
The 06 season ended very badly and the team was on the decline, a point which is never mentioned on here by the GT apologiots.

Just my 2cents worth.

Sometimes teams have a bad run. It's happened to Collingwood over the last 3 years ( with Elliot, Reid, Moore, De Goey, Varco, Wells, and Treloar) and it happened to a fair few Melbourne players last year. You don't sack coaches for these issues.

We all know why GT was sacked. How else was Butters going to sue him without being the villain

[Scollop]

How would you have gone in a debating team where you get judged on relevance and strength of content...I’ll tell you how

You would earn zero!!

Did the Hawks just play off in the 2017 and 2018 Grand Finals?

Find a quote from any coach in the history of AFL or VFL who has doubted his team ONLY 6 months after being a GF challenger. Lyon contemplated whether they had the resilience or the skills to challenge again and he wasn’t just trying to motivate his chargers.

He was serious when he said it was the ‘end of an era’. He truly believed the team needed to rebuild because he questioned if the squad could do it and whether they were mentally tough enough. So not only was there an element of looking back in the rear view mirror and reliving how close we got, but there was this uneasy defeatist attitude which I thought was insulting for a team whose captain and most of our best players were 26/27/ or 28.

He branded them after the Elimination Final. Half the footy world believed his bulldust. I think that some of the players believed his bulldust....after all...the mantra at St Kilda was: In Lyon We Trust...wasn’t it?

No, the Hawks had just played 7 finals series over the last 8 years, including FOUR Grand finals. Not relevant?

Hypothetical - I know it will make you shudder, but what if at the end 2010/early 2011 the club had stopped dilly dallying about Ross's contract when he was asking, and offered him a decent contract based on performance since 2007, confirmed that mini rebuild was desirable, and he stayed. What would have happened in lieu of the Watters/Richo eras? I'm betting much more success. Still had some pretty good players playing then.

Would you have preferred more of Ross, who had full support of the players, or Watters/Richo?

Clarko had every right to call the Hawks mediocre in 2019. It was 3 and a half years after their last GF appearance and they definitely had an aging list. Again...your debating skills need a bit of work

With regard to that last q of yours: Can you imagine another year of recycled rejects at St.Kilda? How can anyone think that with Tosser remaining that things would have been different...We were bundled out of an elimination final in 2011 remember. With all the uncertainty and changes we were basically same result in 2012....And then there was trouble ahead with our salary cap and the fact that under Ross we mortgaged the immediate future on a handfull of players.

The following will make you shudder...

Do you know why Ross made the statements in April 2011 about rebuilding? Because that's how he convinced himself that there was nothing different that he could have done to help his charges win in 09/10. Scapegoating the players helped him to continue in his career

Ross simply put the blame on the players. It was all their fault that they couldn't kick a goal in the last quarter in 2009...they should have iced the game and been in front by so far that they could just defend. That was the game plan that worked more often than not in home and away wasn't it? It was their fault that we couldn’t beat Collingwood in week 1 of 2010.

He tainted the team with his departing 'end of an era' bs because it conveniently flowed on from those initial words in April 2011...he was convincing himself once again that he was a super coach and the St Kilda list was the problem and the reason we fell short. I mean good on him. You have to back yourself is my motto

So Mr ‘career coach’ was 'headhunted' and given a godfather offer so of course he needed to remain confident in his ability to drive and motivate his next underlings

Ross has proven through his relationships with some of his best players and his relationships with assistant coaches that he is divisive. He has a use by date. That use by date was up at St Kilda.

His time at Freo had also run its course and the club couldn't afford to keep losing good staff and good players.

[Joffa Burns]

How would you have gone in a debating team where you get judged on relevance and strength of content...I’ll tell you how

You would earn zero!!

Did the Hawks just play off in the 2017 and 2018 Grand Finals?

Find a quote from any coach in the history of AFL or VFL who has doubted his team ONLY 6 months after being a GF challenger. Lyon contemplated whether they had the resilience or the skills to challenge again and he wasn’t just trying to motivate his chargers.

He was serious when he said it was the ‘end of an era’. He truly believed the team needed to rebuild because he questioned if the squad could do it and whether they were mentally tough enough. So not only was there an element of looking back in the rear view mirror and reliving how close we got, but there was this uneasy defeatist attitude which I thought was insulting for a team whose captain and most of our best players were 26/27/ or 28.

He branded them after the Elimination Final. Half the footy world believed his bulldust. I think that some of the players believed his bulldust....after all...the mantra at St Kilda was: In Lyon We Trust...wasn’t it?

No, the Hawks had just played 7 finals series over the last 8 years, including FOUR Grand finals. Not relevant?

Hypothetical - I know it will make you shudder, but what if at the end 2010/early 2011 the club had stopped dilly dallying about Ross's contract when he was asking, and offered him a decent contract based on performance since 2007, confirmed that mini rebuild was desirable, and he stayed. What would have happened in lieu of the Watters/Richo eras? I'm betting much more success. Still had some pretty good players playing then.

Would you have preferred more of Ross, who had full support of the players, or Watters/Richo?

Clarko had every right to call the Hawks mediocre in 2019. It was 3 and a half years after their last GF appearance and they definitely had an aging list. Again...your debating skills need a bit of work

With regard to that last q of yours: Can you imagine another year of recycled rejects at St.Kilda? How can anyone think that with Tosser remaining that things would have been different...We were bundled out of an elimination final in 2011 remember. With all the uncertainty and changes we were basically same result in 2012....And then there was trouble ahead with our salary cap and the fact that under Ross we mortgaged the immediate future on a handfull of players.

The following will make you shudder...

Do you know why Ross made the statements in April 2011 about rebuilding? Because that's how he convinced himself that there was nothing different that he could have done to help his charges win in 09/10. Scapegoating the players helped him to continue in his career

Ross simply put the blame on the players. It was all their fault that they couldn't kick a goal in the last quarter in 2009...they should have iced the game and been in front by so far that they could just defend. That was the game plan that worked more often than not in home and away wasn't it? It was their fault that we couldn’t beat Collingwood in week 1 of 2010.

He tainted the team with his departing 'end of an era' bs because it conveniently flowed on from those initial words in April 2011...he was convincing himself once again that he was a super coach and the St Kilda list was the problem and the reason we fell short. I mean good on him. You have to back yourself is my motto

So Mr ‘career coach’ was 'headhunted' and given a godfather offer so of course he needed to remain confident in his ability to drive and motivate his next underlings

Ross has proven through his relationships with some of his best players and his relationships with assistant coaches that he is divisive. He has a use by date. That use by date was up at St Kilda.

His time at Freo had also run its course and the club couldn't afford to keep losing good staff and good players.

I agree with you scollop!

Ross had run his race in 2011 and it was time to leave, no doubt in my mind.
He took a team on the decline to two GF with a very regimented taxing style of play that would have been extremely difficult to maintain for any longer. He couldn't get them across the line and had run his race:
I believe in patterns:
2009 - 2nd - 20 wins GF
2010 - 2nd - 15 wins GF
2011 - 6th - 12 wins elimination final
We we clearly on the decline and Ross needed to go.

Incredible how this pattern mirrors our 2004 - 2006 period:
2004 - 3rd - 16 wins prelim
2005 - 4th - 14 wins prelim
2006 - 6th - 13 wins elimination final

The club was clearly in decline in 2006 when stats show in 2005 we had the perfect balanced list of veterans, elite middle aged talent and elite juniors. Unfortunately we had an incompetent coach who got the job through his drug addict best mate and f***ed the whole thing up.

It started when GT interferred with recruiting and stopped drafting kids and started topping up with mature aged duds:Watts, Birrs, Clarke, McGough, Ackland, Fiora etc....

[Scollop]

Probably would have been better for the drug addict to resign rather than sack the coach. The majority of the list was made up of a core of talented youngsters and emerging leaders and therefore I disagree that it was ‘clear’ that we were on the decline. Sometimes you take a step backward and learn from your mistakes

If Port had your thinking they would have dumped Choco in 2002/3. The Cats would have got rid of Thompson before 2007; The Hawks would have parted ways with Clarko in 2010/2011. The Tigers would have lost momentum by getting rid of Hardwick after their disastrous 2016...and maybe the Doggies would have dumped Beveridge in 2018