I'm torn...

[Teflon]

Teflon, do you want us to beat Melbourne on Sunday?

Yes or no?

Pav I don't ever want to lose to anyone ever but I do want the best possible chance to bring talent into our side so that we can compete with the best, so for me to achieve that short term we will need to drop some games. Right now the draft is still one of the best chances at doing that and it's the system that rewards a lower finish. Thems facts.
But if it is the difference between securing a top 5 pick for our club right now versus pick 6 or 7 (depending on who finished where), I'm not fussed if we drop a game or 2 along the way
If that's Melbourne so be it
I don't want that but you can't always have what you want they tell me..

Do you think a loss to Melbourne this week will set us back a decade?
If a loss to Melbourne meant dropping to pick 6 or 7 (over a top 5 pick 5) would you really care?

No but they are rhetoric questions.

They are simple questions
Would you prefer to win against Melbourne and drop 1 or 2 places with our pick or not?

Why are they the choices? It could play out any number of ways.

I'd rather beat Melbourne and end up where we're supposed to end up and to paraphrase Marcus Aurelius, we should just accept the fate which binds us...

It takes courage to say what you really think Pav but I'm a realist and understand not all are equal in the spine department so I won't hold it against you for squibbing it on this one.... but I get the feeling if we drop to the Dees by 9 pts you'll be relieved..

That aside, you'll excuse me in future for not answering any questions you might put up

[kosifantutti]

Teflon, do you want us to beat Melbourne on Sunday?

Yes or no?

He's already avoided answering that question.

Spot on Kos - spoken by the master at not answering a question (or offering an opinion...at least be a half decent mod if you can't muster a view...)

how bout Roo against them Dogs BTW?

What question have I not answered? In case you are in any doubt I want us to win this week and every game we play.

That line about Riewoldt and the dogs...... I can't begin to describe how funny that is. No doubt it fills people with admiration.

What's definitely not funny is you resorting to name calling. It seems that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a "simpleton" or part of a "pack of women".

Try to keep it civil.

Hello....playing the "mod" card are we?
I've been called things too in this thread but I don't see the same requests from you for others.... (must be a group thing... all secret hand shake like...)

Keep it impartial or don't do the job.

BTW - I did have a chuckle over the Roo /Dogs thing and glad we finally got a football opinion out of you but it does sound like someone else's just the same...

Have you been called anything, feel free to report it.

I only have to go back a few posts of yours to find "are you thick?" "Whiny assed supporters" "raving pack of women who post here" and the really classy "pop it back in your trousers" it all seems to be one way.

If you've got anything to add, try to do it without the schoolboy taunts and people might take you slightly seriously.

[plugger66]

Teflon, do you want us to beat Melbourne on Sunday?

Yes or no?

He's already avoided answering that question.

It's a simple question.

I don't want to lose to Melbourne, a club I have very little respect for. We haven't lost to them since the Elimination Final in 2006.

Not sure what the fuss is. We probably will not win more than 5-6 games anyway.

I do not want us to finish last and I do not want us to finish below Caaarrlton and the Suns; the rabble teams of the comp.

No way.

How are you suggesting we get top line talent in to the club?
Plugs reckons FAs will save us but that's proven to be dribble
Or maybe we just take the short term wins now , beat up Melbourne , Lions and co and aim for good old mid table 9th in 4 years time pretending like Richmond, Carlton, Kangaroos that we are on the way "up"??

When was that proven to be dribble. You do realise FA has only been around 4 years. What has proven to be dribble over 30 years is that getting the best possible picks over a period of time doesn't win you a flag. As St Pave he could be dead in 4 years time. I want to beat Melbourne week. You cant possibly want that to happen as you want us to get the best possible picks because of the system.

Plugs your FA theory is dead - you know it so pop it back in your trousers and be realistic (check Bergs post this thread if you need a refresher).

My turn to ask a question plugs: what will be the long term impact to the St Kilda FC if we played all kids this weekend against Melbourne, rested ageing stars and lost???

Do tell

Its a pretty easy question to answer. How would anyone know. See its that simple to answer. Pop it back in your trousers. have another drink. Teffers is very good at the personal stuff. Not so good with logic or stats. believes Bergs stats over a period only 4 years but refuses to believe 30 years of stats and says they irrelevant. Got to say you are trying hard but are tailed off 20 lengths behind the second last poster.

[kosifantutti]

If he believed Bergholt's stats he would give up. They said you don't get decent free agents if you finish 13-18.

[plugger66]

There does seem to be some concrete thinking going on here

Putting things into context... There is def some words being put in mouths

There are words being put into mouths Skeptic which is a shame as it's a genuine topic worthy of discussing
The realities are the system gives reward for a lower finish - take advantage of that in the short term and if that means we lose a few games a long the way so be it - who cares? The fabric of the club won't be destroyed as the raving pack of women on here would have you believe, we will be fine and with a better draft selection/trade option to boot

Maximise every opportunity to get talent in the door right now
No one in this thread has been able to define the impact a few short term losses will have on our longer term future - they play the "you don't want us to win..." Blah blah blah card cause that's the easy option.

Yes it rewards finishing lower but when challenged about losing you don't have the courage and have 2 bob each way. If you really had the courage and wanted to be fully rewarded then surely losing every game for the rest of the year is what you want to happen. Its the only logical conclusion. But having read some of your posts on this topic, logic hasn't played a huge part. And who cares if we lose the last 13 games. lets just fast forward to next season because this one doesn't matter.

Teffers do you want the best possible pick this season? Pretty simple question. And how do you get the best possible pick this season? This one may test you because you cant quite so I hope we lose every game to get the best possible pick. At least us who want to win continue to say that. The ones who want the best possible pick wont say losing every game gets you that.

I don't believe pick 1 is our best possible pick - are you thick?
We've developed we aren't a genuine spoon side IMO so given this I think our best realistic possible pick is top 5
Outside that and IMO we've over achieved and quite possibly shot ourselves in the foot to appease whiny assed supporters who want instant gratification even if it means we miss out on top end selections and stay 9th for a decade
It really isn't that hard.... or maybe it is?
Have another drink

Another drink. Good one. Hilarious stuff. When did I mention pick one. Please read. I said the best possible pick and as the season is 10 games old I don't think we can get pick one but the only way to get the best possible pick is to lose every game left in the season. If we win games its very doubtful we get the best possible pick so logic suggests you want us to lose the last 12 games. For you to say otherwise means you lack the courage of your convictions. And now you are saying top 5 pick. I believe that has been the pick I have said all along. I think you are confusing yourself by replying to so many people who disagree with you and then you try the gang up thing. maybe they aren't ganging up, they just think your theory is madness.

[Teflon]

Teflon, do you want us to beat Melbourne on Sunday?

Yes or no?

He's already avoided answering that question.

Spot on Kos - spoken by the master at not answering a question (or offering an opinion...at least be a half decent mod if you can't muster a view...)

how bout Roo against them Dogs BTW?

What question have I not answered? In case you are in any doubt I want us to win this week and every game we play.

That line about Riewoldt and the dogs...... I can't begin to describe how funny that is. No doubt it fills people with admiration.

What's definitely not funny is you resorting to name calling. It seems that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a "simpleton" or part of a "pack of women".

Try to keep it civil.

Hello....playing the "mod" card are we?
I've been called things too in this thread but I don't see the same requests from you for others.... (must be a group thing... all secret hand shake like...)

Keep it impartial or don't do the job.

BTW - I did have a chuckle over the Roo /Dogs thing and glad we finally got a football opinion out of you but it does sound like someone else's just the same...

Have you been called anything, feel free to report it.

I only have to go back a few posts of yours to find "are you thick?" "Whiny assed supporters" "raving pack of women who post here" and the really classy "pop it back in your trousers" it all seems to be one way.

If you've got anything to add, try to do it without the schoolboy taunts and people might take you slightly seriously.

Thanks dad but being taken seriously in 15 years on this thing hasn't really been a priority... unlike you being unpopular on the internet fazes me little

Who did I specifically call a whiny assed supporter to ? I don't recall

[Teflon]

If he believed Bergholt's stats he would give up. They said you don't get decent free agents if you finish 13-18.

He also stated not much talent in that list at all so feel free to selectively quote more often

[Teflon]

There does seem to be some concrete thinking going on here

Putting things into context... There is def some words being put in mouths

There are words being put into mouths Skeptic which is a shame as it's a genuine topic worthy of discussing
The realities are the system gives reward for a lower finish - take advantage of that in the short term and if that means we lose a few games a long the way so be it - who cares? The fabric of the club won't be destroyed as the raving pack of women on here would have you believe, we will be fine and with a better draft selection/trade option to boot

Maximise every opportunity to get talent in the door right now
No one in this thread has been able to define the impact a few short term losses will have on our longer term future - they play the "you don't want us to win..." Blah blah blah card cause that's the easy option.

Yes it rewards finishing lower but when challenged about losing you don't have the courage and have 2 bob each way. If you really had the courage and wanted to be fully rewarded then surely losing every game for the rest of the year is what you want to happen. Its the only logical conclusion. But having read some of your posts on this topic, logic hasn't played a huge part. And who cares if we lose the last 13 games. lets just fast forward to next season because this one doesn't matter.

Teffers do you want the best possible pick this season? Pretty simple question. And how do you get the best possible pick this season? This one may test you because you cant quite so I hope we lose every game to get the best possible pick. At least us who want to win continue to say that. The ones who want the best possible pick wont say losing every game gets you that.

I don't believe pick 1 is our best possible pick - are you thick?
We've developed we aren't a genuine spoon side IMO so given this I think our best realistic possible pick is top 5
Outside that and IMO we've over achieved and quite possibly shot ourselves in the foot to appease whiny assed supporters who want instant gratification even if it means we miss out on top end selections and stay 9th for a decade
It really isn't that hard.... or maybe it is?
Have another drink

Another drink. Good one. Hilarious stuff. When did I mention pick one. Please read. I said the best possible pick and as the season is 10 games old I don't think we can get pick one but the only way to get the best possible pick is to lose every game left in the season. If we win games its very doubtful we get the best possible pick so logic suggests you want us to lose the last 12 games. For you to say otherwise means you lack the courage of your convictions. And now you are saying top 5 pick. I believe that has been the pick I have said all along. I think you are confusing yourself by replying to so many people who disagree with you and then you try the gang up thing. maybe they aren't ganging up, they just think your theory is madness.

So you agree we need to land pick 5 or better - me too !!
You're my new BFF

So how does a loss this weekend to Melbourne damage our rebuild long term ..?
You talk of courage often but baulk when it's your turn to go plugs
Let's hear it: what irreparable damage will occur to St Kilda should we drop this weeks game to Melbourne EVEN if we didn't perhaps try as hard ?????

[Teflon]

Teflon, do you want us to beat Melbourne on Sunday?

Yes or no?

He's already avoided answering that question.

It's a simple question.

I don't want to lose to Melbourne, a club I have very little respect for. We haven't lost to them since the Elimination Final in 2006.

Not sure what the fuss is. We probably will not win more than 5-6 games anyway.

I do not want us to finish last and I do not want us to finish below Caaarrlton and the Suns; the rabble teams of the comp.

No way.

How are you suggesting we get top line talent in to the club?
Plugs reckons FAs will save us but that's proven to be dribble
Or maybe we just take the short term wins now , beat up Melbourne , Lions and co and aim for good old mid table 9th in 4 years time pretending like Richmond, Carlton, Kangaroos that we are on the way "up"??

When was that proven to be dribble. You do realise FA has only been around 4 years. What has proven to be dribble over 30 years is that getting the best possible picks over a period of time doesn't win you a flag. As St Pave he could be dead in 4 years time. I want to beat Melbourne week. You cant possibly want that to happen as you want us to get the best possible picks because of the system.

Plugs your FA theory is dead - you know it so pop it back in your trousers and be realistic (check Bergs post this thread if you need a refresher).

My turn to ask a question plugs: what will be the long term impact to the St Kilda FC if we played all kids this weekend against Melbourne, rested ageing stars and lost???

Do tell

Its a pretty easy question to answer. How would anyone know. See its that simple to answer. Pop it back in your trousers. have another drink. Teffers is very good at the personal stuff. Not so good with logic or stats. believes Bergs stats over a period only 4 years but refuses to believe 30 years of stats and says they irrelevant. Got to say you are trying hard but are tailed off 20 lengths behind the second last poster.

How would anyone know???
Lol very good captain courageous but just a little weak...
Let's try another:

Is winning the most important thing for St Kilda right now?

[plugger66]

There does seem to be some concrete thinking going on here

Putting things into context... There is def some words being put in mouths

There are words being put into mouths Skeptic which is a shame as it's a genuine topic worthy of discussing
The realities are the system gives reward for a lower finish - take advantage of that in the short term and if that means we lose a few games a long the way so be it - who cares? The fabric of the club won't be destroyed as the raving pack of women on here would have you believe, we will be fine and with a better draft selection/trade option to boot

Maximise every opportunity to get talent in the door right now
No one in this thread has been able to define the impact a few short term losses will have on our longer term future - they play the "you don't want us to win..." Blah blah blah card cause that's the easy option.

Yes it rewards finishing lower but when challenged about losing you don't have the courage and have 2 bob each way. If you really had the courage and wanted to be fully rewarded then surely losing every game for the rest of the year is what you want to happen. Its the only logical conclusion. But having read some of your posts on this topic, logic hasn't played a huge part. And who cares if we lose the last 13 games. lets just fast forward to next season because this one doesn't matter.

Teffers do you want the best possible pick this season? Pretty simple question. And how do you get the best possible pick this season? This one may test you because you cant quite so I hope we lose every game to get the best possible pick. At least us who want to win continue to say that. The ones who want the best possible pick wont say losing every game gets you that.

I don't believe pick 1 is our best possible pick - are you thick?
We've developed we aren't a genuine spoon side IMO so given this I think our best realistic possible pick is top 5
Outside that and IMO we've over achieved and quite possibly shot ourselves in the foot to appease whiny assed supporters who want instant gratification even if it means we miss out on top end selections and stay 9th for a decade
It really isn't that hard.... or maybe it is?
Have another drink

Another drink. Good one. Hilarious stuff. When did I mention pick one. Please read. I said the best possible pick and as the season is 10 games old I don't think we can get pick one but the only way to get the best possible pick is to lose every game left in the season. If we win games its very doubtful we get the best possible pick so logic suggests you want us to lose the last 12 games. For you to say otherwise means you lack the courage of your convictions. And now you are saying top 5 pick. I believe that has been the pick I have said all along. I think you are confusing yourself by replying to so many people who disagree with you and then you try the gang up thing. maybe they aren't ganging up, they just think your theory is madness.

So you agree we need to land pick 5 or better - me too !!
You're my new BFF

So how does a loss this weekend to Melbourne damage our rebuild long term ..?
You talk of courage often but baulk when it's your turn to go plugs
Let's hear it: what irreparable damage will occur to St Kilda should we drop this weeks game to Melbourne EVEN if we didn't perhaps try as hard ?????

Don't know why you are excited about pick 5. Probably said it 29 times in this thread. A loss this week will have no effect at all on the club into the future. None. But as you want the best possible pick that means 13 losses in a row and I think that could have a major impact on the club on and off the field. As for the thought of not trying as hard well if the players new that I believe it could certainly impact into the future. That is guess work though because I have never been involved in a club that doesn't try and win every game they play in.

[Teflon]

There are lots of ways to not try as hard that don't involve players so that impact is zilch
I agree there are absolutely no impacts on the club in future at all from dropping this game so meh get the picks
I've never said lose all games - that's you lying again (drink does that). In fact some wins mean more eg the Dogscome from behind was worth it.... anything against Collingwood grab it.... Actually, any current top 8 side but that won't happen so we come back to reality....
What do we get from beating up lowly Brisbane??? Not much
I think wins overall short term are overrated so some fans feel better all alone on Sunday nights
I doubt you've bee involved in a club period - that involves human interaction which I'm tipping ain't a strong suit

[saintsRrising]

If he believed Bergholt's stats he would give up. They said you don't get decent free agents if you finish 13-18.

He also stated not much talent in that list at all so feel free to selectively quote more often

Did you read the conclusion at the end?

Small sample size, but the evidence so far suggests it's hard to pick up a quality FA if you don't win more than half your games. That's why we won't land an A-grader by FA.

So we need to win more to be more likely to gain a good FA.


I think it is pretty logical to assume:
* that GOOD youngish FAs/trades looking for a new club will not be driven by money alone. ie They will prefer to play in a team that wins as it is more fun and personally reawrding...and by extensiona team witha better chance of playing in finals

* that GOOD youngish FAs/trades will have a number of clubs chasing them. So you need to be desirable to join. ie Saints were chasing Caddy, as were the Cats.

If we are at the bottom, or near bottom, and our trend is to stay there for years like the OP wants, why would a young gun choose us? It is pretty logical to assume that they would be more likely to want to join a club either on the rise, or who are already competitive.

If we have a season this year where we look to be on the rise, then our recruiters will have an easier task of convincing a young gun to join us.

Also take Bruce. His form to date has been great. But it also means that his attractiveness to other clubs will have skyrocketted and he will now be considered not asa rough diamonf buta asa good and potentially very good key forward. We want Bruce to continue to see a future with us, and to not just see us asa stepping stone. He has boaght into that we are buildinga team, and he will want to see that is occuuring. Start to tank, and that vision may crumble.

[Teflon]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

[Teflon]

If he believed Bergholt's stats he would give up. They said you don't get decent free agents if you finish 13-18.

He also stated not much talent in that list at all so feel free to selectively quote more often

Did you read the conclusion at the end?

Small sample size, but the evidence so far suggests it's hard to pick up a quality FA if you don't win more than half your games. That's why we won't land an A-grader by FA.

So we need to win more to be more likely to gain a good FA.


I think it is pretty logical to assume:
* that GOOD youngish FAs/trades looking for a new club will not be driven by money alone. ie They will prefer to play in a team that wins as it is more fun and personally reawrding...and by extensiona team witha better chance of playing in finals

* that GOOD youngish FAs/trades will have a number of clubs chasing them. So you need to be desirable to join. ie Saints were chasing Caddy, as were the Cats.

If we are at the bottom, or near bottom, and our trend is to stay there for years like the OP wants, why would a young gun choose us? It is pretty logical to assume that they would be more likely to want to join a club either on the rise, or who are already competitive.

If we have a season this year where we look to be on the rise, then our recruiters will have an easier task of convincing a young gun to join us.

Also take Bruce. His form to date has been great. But it also means that his attractiveness to other clubs will have skyrocketted and he will now be considered not asa rough diamonf buta asa good and potentially very good key forward. We want Bruce to continue to see a future with us, and to not just see us asa stepping stone. He has boaght into that we are buildinga team, and he will want to see that is occuuring. Start to tank, and that vision may crumble.

The BIG take out from that SMALL SAMPLE size is how underwhelming in talent that FA list is
Put all your eggs in that basket we may as we'll fold now
IF we land a top puck we have 2 options:

1. Go to the draft - select
2. Use a stronger trading position in any developed gun player deal

As has been agreed here - the short term impacts from dropping an extra game or 2 in 2015 are zip come 2020

Let me ask you SR:

Is winning St Kildas highest priority right now????

[saintspremiers]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

I'll also be happy with 6 wins percentage in the 80's and whatever picks we end up with

[Teflon]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

I'll also be happy with 6 wins percentage in the 80's and whatever picks we end up with

Just add to that.... Pick inside top 5.... And I'm with you

Look I'm not greedy but I'm thinking we desperately need some mid guns - this years draft supposedly has some...

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

[SaintPav]

You're dogmatic, I'll give you that.

Thanks

LOL...I wasn't going to say anything, but...

[SaintPav]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

I'll also be happy with 6 wins percentage in the 80's and whatever picks we end up with

Just add to that.... Pick inside top 5.... And I'm with you

Look I'm not greedy but I'm thinking we desperately need some mid guns - this years draft supposedly has some...

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

Utterly profound Teflon.

I think you should email Tony Elshaug.

[Teflon]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

I'll also be happy with 6 wins percentage in the 80's and whatever picks we end up with

Just add to that.... Pick inside top 5.... And I'm with you

Look I'm not greedy but I'm thinking we desperately need some mid guns - this years draft supposedly has some...

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

Utterly profound Teflon.

I think you should email Tony Elshaug.

Thanks Pav - just takes a little courage to step out and have a view..... bit by bit I urge you to take that next step..

All jokes aside, I realise you are dying in 4 years so I do appreciate you getting back to me

Cheers

[Teflon]

You're dogmatic, I'll give you that.

Thanks

LOL...I wasn't going to say anything, but...

I'm of the firm view being dogmatic is a Christian virtue.... hang with me brother I have much to teach you
Next stop: courage and conviction....

[SaintPav]

You're dogmatic, I'll give you that.

Thanks

LOL...I wasn't going to say anything, but...

I'm of the firm view being dogmatic is a Christian virtue.... hang with me brother I have much to teach you
Next stop: courage and conviction....

That's interesting.

Are cheating and dishonesty Christian virtues too?

[matrix]

what irreparable damage will occur to St Kilda should we drop this weeks game to Melbourne EVEN if we didn't perhaps try as hard ?????

none

Is winning the most important thing for St Kilda right now?

nope

[saintsRrising]

Let me ask you SR:

Is winning St Kildas highest priority right now????

You have a short memory.

As I have posted earlier in the thread the the most important thing now, and always, is to build a culture of winning.

That is how you improve and build success. Build the right culture and the lesser lights grow and bloom.

Tanking builds a culture of losing, of embracing failure.


None of the recent premiership teams have been built on a raft of early draft picks. None (Though GWS may be the first). They have all however had in a common a culture of success.

And if you are lusting after emulating GWS, then dream on as the Saints will never be able to stockpile the same number of earl;y picks that GWS were given, and then magnified with more trades. Trying to ape their strategy is doomed to failure.

[saintsRrising]

.

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

You do realise that the GT Mantra back then was 100% effort 100% of the time?

ie a culture of winning.

Those draft picks were but part of the reason for the rise up the ladder. The final nudge came under Lyon with better coaching and a cast of role players and rejects from other clubs.

The Blues by contrast had more No1 picks, and brought in a superstar in Judd, but were a lot less successful. They tanked, everyone new they tanked and a culture of half hearted players was endorsed.

[saintsRrising]

Well Roo is launching the charity to #FightLike Maddy this week.

So who gets to look him in the eyes this week to to tell him instread to #GiveUpAndTank against the Dees?

Who gets to tell the big fella to not do his best?

Does anyone on this forum believe that a player like Roo would do anything but try his best to win? I mean anyone?

To the Tankers I suggest you read some of the articles being written this this week, and then consider whether you really want a team based on throwing in the towel. I know I don't.