The Seb Ross discussions

[The_Dud]

Dave Armitage had a solid career, at his best (2015) he was a very good inside mid. Tough as f***!

His last two seasons his back was completely stuffed!!

Good player
Would he get a game in the current team?
Yes

Peak Armo vs peak Seb, now there's another discussion!

[saynta]

Dave Armitage had a solid career, at his best (2015) he was a very good inside mid. Tough as f***!

His last two seasons his back was completely stuffed!!

Good player
Would he get a game in the current team?
Yes

Peak Armo vs peak Seb, now there's another discussion!

Oh, that right. I love Dave but how many B & F did Dave win?

[The_Dud]

Dave Armitage had a solid career, at his best (2015) he was a very good inside mid. Tough as f***!

His last two seasons his back was completely stuffed!!

Good player
Would he get a game in the current team?
Yes

Peak Armo vs peak Seb, now there's another discussion!

Oh, that right. I love Dave but how many B & F did Dave win?

Same amount as Goddard, Dal Santo and Montagna combined!

[saynta]

Dave Armitage had a solid career, at his best (2015) he was a very good inside mid. Tough as f***!

His last two seasons his back was completely stuffed!!

Good player
Would he get a game in the current team?
Yes

Peak Armo vs peak Seb, now there's another discussion!

Oh, that right. I love Dave but how many B & F did Dave win?

Same amount as Goddard, Dal Santo and Montagna combined!

Just as I thought. Nil, zero zilch...

[The_Dud]

Dave Armitage had a solid career, at his best (2015) he was a very good inside mid. Tough as f***!

His last two seasons his back was completely stuffed!!

Good player
Would he get a game in the current team?
Yes

Peak Armo vs peak Seb, now there's another discussion!

Oh, that right. I love Dave but how many B & F did Dave win?

Same amount as Goddard, Dal Santo and Montagna combined!

Just as I thought. Nil, zero zilch...

So by your logic...

Seb Ross > Goddard, Dal Santo, Montagna, Frawley, Loewe, Everitt, Ball, Fisher, Kosi, Gehrig, Baker, Jones, Milne...

Got it.

[B.M]

No

Those players have plenty of decorations

But winning a best and fairest in a team that won 11 games and average 30 possessions a game, polling 14 Brownlow Votes is a good achievement!


Spin it anyway you want, you can’t get past those facts

Dave was my favourite Saint for a number of years, loved his hardness!

His 2015 was brilliant, he average 28 possessions and was B&F runner up in a team that won 6 games. He polled 12 Brownlow Votes

In comparison not as good as Sebs 2017 where he made the AA squad. So not only was he good compared to other StK players
He was good compared to other players in the AFL

[Josh Battle]

Who was that West Coast mid that never made it into the AA team in 2014 but ended up winning the Brownlow that year ...yep

Matt Priddis

Absolute ball magnet and although the umps thought he was the best player in the League, Matts own club voted him second in their best and fairest that year.

I just think voting is subjective and doesn't prove anything. Seb Ross was a ball magnet, but you can't win games of footy just by possessing the ball and playing keepings off.

I thought Dylan Roberton had an outstanding 2017 (was better than Seb Imo) and should have won the TBM that year

[The_Dud]

No

Those players have plenty of decorations

But winning a best and fairest in a team that won 11 games and average 30 possessions a game, polling 14 Brownlow Votes is a good achievement!


Spin it anyway you want, you can’t get past those facts

Dave was my favourite Saint for a number of years, loved his hardness!

His 2015 was brilliant, he average 28 possessions and was B&F runner up in a team that won 6 games. He polled 12 Brownlow Votes

In comparison not as good as Sebs 2017 where he made the AA squad. So not only was he good compared to other StK players
He was good compared to other players in the AFL

My point was that using B&Fs to judge how good a player is is pointless.

It's a highly subjective award with no consistency across clubs or years.

And those two years you're comparing are a lot closer than you're letting on. The biggest stain on Seb is that in his best year according to you (2017) he only kicked 5 goals, while Armo kicked 11 in 2015 (with his career best being 17 in 2012). Modern midfielders need to hit the scoreboard, that is another fact you can't get past.

[To the top]

Missing from these contributions is that it is now 2021

Speculation is on which players will be running into the park in a couple of months time - for the 2021 season

Everything else is past tense and irrelevant

IF the players we now have on our List were all available in (say 2017), would we have won more games and who would have been the B&F winner?

Nothing is the same today as it was yesterday

[Joffa Burns]

Who was that West Coast mid that never made it into the AA team in 2014 but ended up winning the Brownlow that year ...yep

Matt Priddis

Absolute ball magnet and although the umps thought he was the best player in the League, Matts own club voted him second in their best and fairest that year.

I just think voting is subjective and doesn't prove anything. Seb Ross was a ball magnet, but you can't win games of footy just by possessing the ball and playing keepings off.

I thought Dylan Roberton had an outstanding 2017 (was better than Seb Imo) and should have won the TBM that year

I think the possess the ball go sideways & switch game plan in that period probably had a lot to do with how Seb played the game and in how many possessions he accumulated.

For me Seb is a solid B grade AFL mid and I cannot understand why or how people think he should be traded (unless we get decent compensation) or is no longer best 22.

I think he is underrated and undervalued on this site, but I doubt he is internally at the club.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Seb on one occasion and you would not come across a more humble and polite young man, seems a really genuine decent guy.

A sporting club is usually a mix of all types of characters and when these guys gel you have something special, Seb is a quality individual and you need these solid citizens in the group.

[saynta]

Who was that West Coast mid that never made it into the AA team in 2014 but ended up winning the Brownlow that year ...yep

Matt Priddis

Absolute ball magnet and although the umps thought he was the best player in the League, Matts own club voted him second in their best and fairest that year.

I just think voting is subjective and doesn't prove anything. Seb Ross was a ball magnet, but you can't win games of footy just by possessing the ball and playing keepings off.

I thought Dylan Roberton had an outstanding 2017 (was better than Seb Imo) and should have won the TBM that year

I think the possess the ball go sideways & switch game plan in that period probably had a lot to do with how Seb played the game and in how many possessions he accumulated.

For me Seb is a solid B grade AFL mid and I cannot understand why or how people think he should be traded (unless we get decent compensation) or is no longer best 22.

I think he is underrated and undervalued on this site, but I doubt he is internally at the club.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Seb on one occasion and you would not come across a more humble and polite young man, seems a really genuine decent guy.

A sporting club is usually a mix of all types of characters and when these guys gel you have something special, Seb is a quality individual and you need these solid citizens in the group.

Well said.

[B.M]

B&F awards/club champions are seen as huge honours

To be judged the best performed player out of 45 AFL listed players (by the coaches) over the course of 22 games is a huge achievement!!!

Any who thinks otherwise is being ridiculous.

Also,
If Dylan Roberton deserved the B&F in 2017... he would have won it!!!

The coaches thought otherwise
SS users thought otherwise too

[To the top]

Expectations are put on all players by the Coach and his support team

Within the Club, votes are awarded including on the basis of the expectation/s set

They do not correlate to what Umpires, media and supporters see

IIRC Ross made his mark as a “lock down” mid where he had an ability to position to deny space plus won ball himself

The ability to restrict the performance of others would have won coaches votes

The ability to match possessions with his assigned player would have won external of the Club votes

So all things are not equal

Interestingly, Steele was challenged by Brett saying he was too good to chase other players around and that he should have players chasing him around instead

That has opened up a task for others - as and if deemed a requirement

Enter the opportunity for Ross

Along with the realisation that the team maintaining possession is the not negotiable requirement at St Kilda, those chains of possession the subject of expectation

So a possession in a back pocket results in a chain that has someone running into an open goal - our goal

Because the chain is a known - nothing is by accident

That is why the likes of Clark, Coffield, Long etc are played where they are

Is the tagger in the chain?

I would expect not

But he may get Coach panel votes

[The_Dud]

B&F awards/club champions are seen as huge honours

To be judged the best performed player out of 45 AFL listed players (by the coaches) over the course of 22 games is a huge achievement!!!

Any who thinks otherwise is being ridiculous.

Also,
If Dylan Roberton deserved the B&F in 2017... he would have won it!!!

The coaches thought otherwise
SS users thought otherwise too

So are the 18 b&f winners the 18 best players on the year? Did Reilly O’Brien have a better year than Dusty?

A b&f has to be awarded every year, regardless of talent. If you have a list of C and D graders, someone has to win. Just like if you have a list of A and B graders. The wooden spooner’s b&f winner might not even crack the top 15 in the premier’s count.

Some clubs award votes to every player every game, so if you miss a few you’re out of the running regardless of how well you play. Some are more like the Brownlow.

So again, all B&Fs aren’t equal, using them as a measuring stick is pointless.

Goddard, Dal Santo, Montagna, Milne and Gehrig won none, Jack Steven won 4, ‘nuff said.

[B.M]

Did Reilly O’Brien have a poor year?

Not sure I know anyone who has won a B&F to have had a poor season?!

Although
He won his B&F (which is well done to him) was achieved in a team that had two or three wins. Wooden Spooners!

Seb won his B&Fs (2) in seasons of 11 and 9 wins. So whilst we weren’t world beaters, we were more than competitive.

Last season Dusty was good in big games and big moments, but his overall season was inconsistent.

[B.M]

Goddard, Dal Santo, Milne, Montagna were multiple All Australians

So naturally they were highly decorated players, we all know that?!

Seb is a decorated player within the club... maybe we should respect that!!!!

Definitely respect Jack Steven (4) because even though he won them in very poor years for StK he still had to play well against other AFL mids.... week in week out... and that he did.

Jack Steven sits comfortably alongside the many great players at the club, and often played a lone hand in a depleted midfield and stood up many a time

This rubbish about B&Fs not signifying anything is complete nonsense
Still got to play well - against the same opposition as every other team.

Again
When was the last player to win a B&F and play poorly?

What a load of crap

[B.M]

Did Seb not touch the footy last season?

[Sanctorum]

Did Seb not touch the footy last season?

Your passion for Seb Ross is admirable B.M but I don't think anyone that has expressed an opposing view to yours has argued that he failed to "touch the footy last season".

My take on this discussion is that most supporters acknowledge that Seb Ross has been a good player over the years, but that he has not quite achieved elite status, as evident by his inability to become AA in the years that he was awarded St Kilda's B&F.

It is also acknowledged by most, as Joffa has attested, that Seb Ross is of exemplary character and a thoroughly decent bloke.

What has ben argued here, and I am one, is that 2021 shapes up as a critical year for Seb Ross, in that the club has made massive improvements to its midfield assets, both from within and without, so that the competition to be selected consistently in the best 22 every week is now extremely fierce.

Should Seb Ross rise to this challenge (as is the need for Jack Billing and Jake Carlisle to do likewise) then that will be fantastic as it will make St Kilda's endeavours to finish top 4 and the chance to win its 2nd premiership so much better!

[The_Dud]

You can dance around it as much as you like BM, but all B&Fs aren’t created equal, and using them as the determining factor when judging 2 players is clearly flawed.

[shanegrambeau]

Seb came in a lowly 22nd place in Saintsationaal Player of the Year 2020.

How did he place in the other years? Especially in the B&F years?

Curious. Anyone know?

[CQ SAINT]

I've watched Seb Ross play. I see all the good plays he has. They are good. He can win the ball, he wins it heaps, he is a bull and he can run really well. If that gets you Brownlow votes and B&F's thats awesome.
I also saw heaps of times when Ross created a possesion that could have influenced the game for us and he just didn't execute the correct disposal. Games we could have won if he changed that. Thats what I remember more. I believe Ratten saw it too and changed Ross's mindset from, use your brawn to use your brain. It seems I'm not the only one. If that detracts from his achievements, I can't help that and only he can change it.

[saynta]

Seb came in a lowly 22nd place in Saintsationaal Player of the Year 2020.

How did he place in the other years? Especially in the B&F years?

Curious. Anyone know?

Confirms that a fair number of SS posters don't know s*** from sugar or their arse from their elbow.

As I have been saying all along and others too, Seb is undervalued and his games under appreciated by SS posters.

No real mystery there, but thank the f*** SS posters don't pick the Saints side.

That task still falls to the coaches and they know what they are doing and who can play and who can't.

You gotta laugh at those that claim to know what the coach hs said to certain players, Seb in particular .

Maybe they can predict tattslotto numbers too.

[The_Dud]

Seb came in a lowly 22nd place in Saintsationaal Player of the Year 2020.

How did he place in the other years? Especially in the B&F years?

Curious. Anyone know?

As I have been saying all along and others too, Seb is undervalued and his games under appreciated by SS posters.

No real mystery there, but thank the f*** SS posters don't pick the Saints side.

That task still falls to the coaches and they know what they are doing and who can play and who can't.

Just like Lyon with Ball in 09 I suppose?

You can’t have it both ways, unless you’re saynta I guess

[saynta]

Seb came in a lowly 22nd place in Saintsationaal Player of the Year 2020.

How did he place in the other years? Especially in the B&F years?

Curious. Anyone know?

As I have been saying all along and others too, Seb is undervalued and his games under appreciated by SS posters.

No real mystery there, but thank the f*** SS posters don't pick the Saints side.

That task still falls to the coaches and they know what they are doing and who can play and who can't.

Just like Lyon with Ball in 09 I suppose?

You can’t have it both ways, unless you’re saynta I guess

The tosser was an aberration, a glich in an otherwise knowledgable industry. Any one with an ounce of common sense is aware of that.

[Joffa Burns]

You can dance around it as much as you like BM, but all B&Fs aren’t created equal, and using them as the determining factor when judging 2 players is clearly flawed.

I agree dud, you must play well to win a B&F but without doubt the strength of the team at the time is a massive determining factor.

If I recall correctly Michael Tuck failed to win a B&F and Brereton & Dunstan 1 each but all played in 5 premierships, Tuck perhaps 6.

Steven was IMO a B plus grade player & Seb a solid B grader, neither made an AA team in their prime.

I remain adamant Seb is underrated massively on this site, however B&F in a weak team does doesn’t devalue the award but explains some circumstance.