Trades

[saintsRrising]

I'd move whatever over-25s we can for whatever we can get and start to build around a young core including....

The problem is though that our only two over 25's with real trade currency is Bruce and Carlisle. I am not sure that either would gain very low picks. I would be happier to lose Carlisle than Bruce.

Steven unfortunately now has reduced trade value.

The others are more steak knives or maybe a second rounder or two.

One obvious trade to try and engineer is Carlisle for B King, but Carlisle is not likely to find GC that attractive a club to move to.

Given that we have no second or third now, third rounder now, assuming no B King, that then means entering the draft with Pick 5, maybe several seconds and second thirds and multiple fourths. That is not much of platform to build with and will more likely just obtain more depth players, and depth players we are already overflowing with. What we lack is not depth, what we lack are true guns. Now churning through players may find some more nuggets like Marshal, but it will be a slow process.

The other factor is that to move on all our good oldies is that that is most likely going to cause a nightmare few years of grim results. Billings has timed his contract to finish with him becoming a FA. We then run the great risk of being the new GC who just feed players to the other clubs.

Whichever we go at present, the hurdles are large and it is not an attractive future.

I would feel a lot more confident if I thought that we had good recruiters, but I don't. We have a recruitment team, including Lethlean, who like to take large punts of players coming good.

Our 4 biggest player a acquisitions last year in Hannas, King, Bytel and Kent all had known clouds over them. Boy oh boy am I hoping that all their long shots come off.

I would love a trade period for a change not so heavily based on long shots. Not confident I will get it though.

[Josh Battle]

If St Kilda keep going down this track of bringing in players older than 26 we are doomed. Forget about Hill, Tomlinson and Zak Jones ffs. If we were a top 4 team then by all means go for it. But we are nowhere near a top 4 team. We have to keep building from the bottom up. Not the other way around. We need to identify which of the older players have trade value which will get us a gun youngster. Here is what I would do.

1. Jack Steven to Geelong for Constable.
2. Jake Carlisle and pick 5 to Gold Coast for Ben King and their third round pick. (38ish).
3. Our own forth round pick (we have 2 of them), plus pick 38ish from Gold Coast to anyone for an early second round pick.
4. Take this early second round pick to the draft and grab the best possible midfielder.
5. Let Newnes walk as a FA and take the compensation draft pick to the draft.

Is that you dragit? Have you decided to return since we said goodbye to Cho?

[Josh Battle]

I still think we should be selling, not buying. If we add Hill, we're probably still on the wrong side of mediocre. I feel like, five years down the road, we're probably going to wish we'd kept the top-10 pick.

I don't see what guys like Constable, Jones and Tomlinson add to the list either. Constable slipped in the draft due to poor endurance and the way the Cats used him doesn't say to me they think he's capable of running hard two ways for four quarters. Does he really displace anybody already in our midfield group anyway? Jones couldn't get consistent mid time ahead of Sydney's older guys or their younger brigade. I think he's the exact kind of mediocre that we already have lots of.

I'd move whatever over-25s we can for whatever we can get and start to build around a young core including the likes of Battle, Clark, Coffield, Gresham and King. This list is going to need to be rebuilt eventually and I think our current list management strategy is to put that off for as long as possible. I think this road is setting up the new coach for failure, whether it's Ratten or anyone else. In a few years, we're probably right back where we are now, well outside the 8, wondering what the heck went wrong. Especially since we keep moving picks to get questionably better.

This

Or ...on second thoughts maybe you're wrong. Maybe with Kent, Hannabery, Parker, Wilkie, Jones, Tomlinson and Hill we could be a top 4 list...alright...it's late at night and I'm delusional

[vacuous space]

The other factor is that to move on all our good oldies is that that is most likely going to cause a nightmare few years of grim results.

I'm not sure we have enough good older players to doom us if we got rid of them all. Plus, there's only so much further we can go down. On top of that, there's a certain number of players that we're stuck with. I don't think anybody is taking on Hannebery's contract, for example. I'm not sure anyone's taking Carlisle either, given how immobile he looked this season.

For me, the nightmare scenario is having mediocre older players block the progress of our younger players. If we have Geary, Savage and Webster in the backline, then it's going to be hard to play all of Clark, Coffield and Paton. Gresham should probably be full-time midfielder at this stage, but numbers will probably squeeze him back forward, particularly if we have Hill on the wing, which forces Hanners inside.

I don't expect the club to actually go into rebuild mode. I do hope that we keep our first pick and end up with an improved draft position. I fear the club sees nine wins and thinks we're not far off it again, instead of contextualising and accepting that our record is, in part, because we played 6 games against the bottom-three teams.

[Ghost Like]

I am not convinced that moving on players over 25 for 2nd, 3rd & 4th round draft picks is a sound idea. Sounds great but is it sound?

Isn't our current list & predicament build on draft speculations from rounds 1 to 4? What's happened that guarantees we not only nail these selections but develop them properly?

I do know that if we can convince the Hills, Tomlinson, Ryder, Greenwood and Jones to come to St Kilda for 2020 that there's 6 of our best 22...a huge improvement on today's 22.

Surely we have 16 on our current list to complement them don't we? We have King & Bytel who people are very bullish about...that's now 8 of the 22.

Young guns & genuine best 22 players in Marshall, Clark & Coffield...now we have 11 of the 22.

Another pre season & with the above, our round 1 team could look like this...

B: Paton Battle Wilkie

HB: Coffield Carlisle Clark

C: B. Hill Hannerbery Billings

HF: Greenwood Bruce Jones

F: Gresham King Membrey

R: Marshall Ross Steele

I/C: Ryder Bytel Tomlinson S. Hill

Obviously we then have some depth to mix, match & trade

Clavarino I believe will be right to go next season which could allow for a Carlisle trade, he & Battle could hold the key posts if we have Tomlinson & Wilkie in the back half.

Acres could help facilitate a trade or be included in the 22 if Marshall rucks alone with assistance from Tomlinson. Tomlinson would make a world of difference to our set up.

Bottom line: Orchestrating trades for the above players makes us finals contenders at worst. Half a dozen draft picks in rounds 2 to 4, leaves us bottom 4. If that's the case, we are definitely doomed.

[saintsRrising]

The other factor is that to move on all our good oldies is that that is most likely going to cause a nightmare few years of grim results.

I'm not sure we have enough good older players to doom us if we got rid of them all. Plus, there's only so much further we can go down. On top of that, there's a certain number of players that we're stuck with. I don't think anybody is taking on Hannebery's contract, for example. I'm not sure anyone's taking Carlisle either, given how immobile he looked this season.

For me, the nightmare scenario is having mediocre older players block the progress of our younger players. If we have Geary, Savage and Webster in the backline, then it's going to be hard to play all of Clark, Coffield and Paton. Gresham should probably be full-time midfielder at this stage, but numbers will probably squeeze him back forward, particularly if we have Hill on the wing, which forces Hanners inside.

I don't expect the club to actually go into rebuild mode. I do hope that we keep our first pick and end up with an improved draft position. I fear the club sees nine wins and thinks we're not far off it again, instead of contextualising and accepting that our record is, in part, because we played 6 games against the bottom-three teams.

Yes I did not mention Hannas as his contract means that he is not going anywhere.


I have little faith in the club's direction (they do not seem to have any real plan), and in those making the decisions.

What I think they will do:
- is bring in Hill and Tomlinson (so one good player and one average one)
- trade out most that they get offers for. For most this will not be much and so we will get unders. I expect with the new coach though that they will want to clear the decks somewhat, but then they only just extended DMac for 3 years which was stunningly bad.

I am hoping desperately that they do not do really stupid things like gain Ryder. However I think egos may be at play and so they may want name players.

[Ghost Like]

Ryder would cost us nothing, we have Marshall & literally nothing. Marshall is great around the ground but would hit new heights learning from someone like Ryder.

I think if Ryder is available it's a no brainer, does not have to play every game but we would not be severely hampered if Marshall was to go down.

[saintsRrising]

Ryder would cost us nothing,

How so? He is not a FA.While not contracted Port have been said to have offered him a one year deal. So if he just walks he is not a DFA. So unless Port delist him he is a trade.

we have Marshall & literally nothing. Marshall is great around the ground but would hit new heights learning from someone like Ryder.

I think if Ryder is available it's a no brainer, does not have to play every game but we would not be severely hampered if Marshall was to go down.

If you pick up Ryder you have to play him in the 22. He will not join us to mainly play at Sandi.

So are you going to leave out Bruce or just not play Max King in 2020?

We don't need a Ryder. We need a back up ruck in case Marshall goes down. State Level ruck with some potential to get better is all we need.

[Ghost Like]

When I say cost nothing, I mean in terms of trade, we offer 3 years and a fair salary and he's ours. At the same time we select a State ruck & an U/18 kid to develop.

sRr, you make finding a State level ruck with potential sound so easy. I give you our current ruck situation as exhibit A that it's not, remember Marshall is an accident, a freak, the best bit of draft luck we've had in 20 years.

If, depending on our opponent, you cannot find a spot in the 22 for a rejuvenated Ryder plus a developing kid in King then we are doomed to continue with a similar set up for essentially similar results.

Trying not to knock Bruce but prior to the North game his season was underwhelming, since that game he's performed to a level that's expected.

Another poster posted they only see two on our list who are untouchable, Marshall & Clark, I agree. I'd probably throw a few more in but for the right price (overs) they are all on the table.

New coach & a turnover of 8 to 12 players and 2020 may suddenly look very promising.

[prwilkinson]

When I say cost nothing, I mean in terms of trade, we offer 3 years and a fair salary and he's ours. At the same time we select a State ruck & an U/18 kid to develop.

sRr, you make finding a State level ruck with potential sound so easy. I give you our current ruck situation as exhibit A that it's not, remember Marshall is an accident, a freak, the best bit of draft luck we've had in 20 years.

If, depending on our opponent, you cannot find a spot in the 22 for a rejuvenated Ryder plus a developing kid in King then we are doomed to continue with a similar set up for essentially similar results.

Trying not to knock Bruce but prior to the North game his season was underwhelming, since that game he's performed to a level that's expected.

Another poster posted they only see two on our list who are untouchable, Marshall & Clark, I agree. I'd probably throw a few more in but for the right price (overs) they are all on the table.

New coach & a turnover of 8 to 12 players and 2020 may suddenly look very promising.

Yeah I tend to agree at this point. Maybe I’ve been blindly positive for too long but it’s time to put a line through a fair few players. They’re just a s*** team. They remind me of Richmond teams from 10-15 years ago. Kind of alright, but still s***.

[Ghost Like]

When I say cost nothing, I mean in terms of trade, we offer 3 years and a fair salary and he's ours. At the same time we select a State ruck & an U/18 kid to develop.

sRr, you make finding a State level ruck with potential sound so easy. I give you our current ruck situation as exhibit A that it's not, remember Marshall is an accident, a freak, the best bit of draft luck we've had in 20 years.

If, depending on our opponent, you cannot find a spot in the 22 for a rejuvenated Ryder plus a developing kid in King then we are doomed to continue with a similar set up for essentially similar results.

Trying not to knock Bruce but prior to the North game his season was underwhelming, since that game he's performed to a level that's expected.

Another poster posted they only see two on our list who are untouchable, Marshall & Clark, I agree. I'd probably throw a few more in but for the right price (overs) they are all on the table.

New coach & a turnover of 8 to 12 players and 2020 may suddenly look very promising.

Yeah I tend to agree at this point. Maybe I’ve been blindly positive for too long but it’s time to put a line through a fair few players. They’re just a s*** team. They remind me of Richmond teams from 10-15 years ago. Kind of alright, but still s***.

Yep, spot PRW. While we were all laughing at Richmond we were actually becoming them.

[Nick_BlueNRG]

I still think we should be selling, not buying. If we add Hill, we're probably still on the wrong side of mediocre. I feel like, five years down the road, we're probably going to wish we'd kept the top-10 pick.

I don't see what guys like Constable, Jones and Tomlinson add to the list either. Constable slipped in the draft due to poor endurance and the way the Cats used him doesn't say to me they think he's capable of running hard two ways for four quarters. Does he really displace anybody already in our midfield group anyway? Jones couldn't get consistent mid time ahead of Sydney's older guys or their younger brigade. I think he's the exact kind of mediocre that we already have lots of.

I'd move whatever over-25s we can for whatever we can get and start to build around a young core including the likes of Battle, Clark, Coffield, Gresham and King. This list is going to need to be rebuilt eventually and I think our current list management strategy is to put that off for as long as possible. I think this road is setting up the new coach for failure, whether it's Ratten or anyone else. In a few years, we're probably right back where we are now, well outside the 8, wondering what the heck went wrong. Especially since we keep moving picks to get questionably better.

Post of the year vacuous. Exactly what I am saying. We need to keep building from the bottom up. Not from the top down. There is no point bringing Hill, Tomlinson and Zak Jones because it won't propel us to finals. All it means is that we will continue to go into each year in trade deficit. And then in 5 years time back in our current position. Use the oldies as currency because they won't be around when we next challenge.

[saintsRrising]

When I say cost nothing, I mean in terms of trade,

So did I. He is not a FA and so port will want something.

we offer 3 years and a fair salary and he's ours. At the same time we select a State ruck & an U/18 kid to develop.

3 years is a lot for a player who is already 31 years and 5 months old. That basically means him playeing for us as 32, 33 and 34 year old.

sRr, you make finding a State level ruck with potential sound so easy. I give you our current ruck situation as exhibit A that it's not, remember Marshall is an accident, a freak, the best bit of draft luck we've had in 20 years.

Thing is you are looking fora first 22 player and I am not.

I am only seeking a back up ruck in case Marshall gets injured.

If, depending on our opponent, you cannot find a spot in the 22 for a rejuvenated Ryder plus a developing kid in King then we are doomed to continue with a similar set up for essentially similar results.

See you see it as doomed. I actually see playing only the one ruck as a good thing.

I would much rather
-in our first 22 play only Marshall as the ruck with Bruce and King in the forward line with one or two providing a chop out in the ruck. Possibly Carlisle too if he stays.

-than play all of Marshal, Ryder, King and Bruce in the one team. Too top heavy and our forward pressure would be a real Achilles Heel.

And I would much rather play Bruce than Ryder in our 22.

Trying not to knock Bruce but prior to the North game his season was underwhelming, since that game he's performed to a level that's expected.

Another poster posted they only see two on our list who are untouchable, Marshall & Clark, I agree. I'd probably throw a few more in but for the right price (overs) they are all on the table.

See there is the major flaw in your plan. You are thinking we will get overs, when the harsh reality is that we are only going to get unders for almost every player on our list including players like Billings and Gresham.

And with players like Acres, Dunstan, Steven, Lonie etc the price will be even worst.
The most likely scenario is that most players that we offer up will not even gain an trade offer. The offers we gain will be unders.

The Saints are not about to gain a big bunch of first and seconder rounders in a fire sale.

New coach & a turnover of 8 to 12 players and 2020 may suddenly look very promising.

I agree we need to turn over and list and bring new players in. But to invest the value of the players we exit for fading players like Ryder is a very short term view when we need genuine long-term thinking.

We are going to have to cut our losses and either just delist, or lose some players for minimal picks or as "steak knives".

Roos or Dunstan may get a second rounder. Carlisle possibly a good player or a good pick, but not a decent first rounder.


A daydream scenario is that we trade a a bunch of players to GC and we get King and some good picks back. But why would Carlisle, Ross and Dunstan want to go to GC?

[Ghost Like]

So what's your plan sRr? To continue with the same list, the same set up & expect a different result? That thinking is what I refer to when I use the term doomed.

A tall structure didn't hurt the Eagles against a one ruck team in Collingwood.

Ryder is the only aging player I mentioned, you conveniently left out I also believe we need to add two rucks to our list. If you remember 97, things looked great in the ruck department until we were left with Cook at the big dance.

If Port only offer a one year deal & we offer 3, Ryder goes into the draft, we would get him. Remember Ryder had a year off, 35 for a quality ruckman is nothing, we get him for his experience, size and ability to play forward, like Marshall, when not rucking or off the bench.

Between Bruce, Membrey & King, all who are very mobile we at least multiply our targets for our F50 entries. Watching St Kilda the past two weeks shows how wasted those entries are, going small with our smalls doesn't make us Richmond, just small.

That was not a flaw in my plan thinking we'd get overs, if you read that properly, I'm conceding we would not get overs so we keep our B and B+ players rather than trade them in the blind belief we will magically turn 2nd & 3rd round draft picks into A graders. Only trade them if we got overs, we won't.

Again, that's my belief and a possible way forward. Anytime we can get players to our club that are better than our current players is an improvement.

Hopefully the club has a plan, rather than blind faith or hope they magically draft better than they have for a decade.

[terry smith rules]

I do know that if we can convince the Hills, Tomlinson, Ryder, Greenwood and Jones to come to St Kilda for 2020 that there's 6 of our best 22...a huge improvement on today's 22.


Another pre season & with the above, our round 1 team could look like this...

B: Paton Battle Wilkie

HB: Coffield Carlisle Clark

C: B. Hill Hannerbery Billings

HF: Greenwood Bruce Jones

F: Gresham King Membrey

R: Marshall Ross Steele

I/C: Ryder Bytel Tomlinson S. Hill

Sorry not sure I understand all the attraction for Tomlinson and Greenwood

What has Tomlinson got that Marsh hasn't (Marsh is 3 years younger and seems like our forgotten player)
What has Greenwood got that Acres hasn't (they both don't get many disposals and they both seem to promise plenty .... but...)

If you go to afl.com.au and compare them i think you will find it interesting reading

It seems like the grass is greener

Personally do not want either trade in and I trade Acres for picks

[BarryGrogan]

If we want B King, we don't need Bruce and Carlisle.

Especially if we want a second ruckman also.

Membrey, King, King, Marshall, Goldstein/Ryder, Carlisle, Bruce, Brown. Also Joyce, Logan and McCartin.

Clearly we don't need at least 3-4 of them.


So IF we are looking at B King and the second ruckman, we'll have to move 3-4 of the above on.

Bruce and Carlisle are the only ones with currency.


I'd happily move them on plus Membrey if we could get Hill, B King and Papley in.

If Membrey was to go also, we'd need a genuine forward pocket to come in along with the Kings.


There's also Tomlinson.

[Ghost Like]

That's fine, I understand the comparisons. You don't think Greenwood and Tomlinson could improve our best 22 or list?

I would have liked to have seen more of Marsh this year but I'm not sure the Giants are wishing he was on their list instead of Tomlinson. Greenwood needs a change, is a good size and versatile as is Tomlinson.

But fair enough however, both are going to be available. I'd rather either than half the players that have pulled on a saints jumper the past two weeks.

I don't mind Acres and that is understanding his value has dipped in the past two years. I am more a devil you know kind of person, I know what Acres can offer, I'm not sure we'd get that return or break even on a draft pick.

[SMS]

We need quality.
We do not need Zjones or Tomlinson on big $$$
Langlands will be better than Jones if given half a chance.

HILL, BKING & CONSTABLE should be everything IN THIS draft for us.

Constable is a gun of the future. 19yo that dominates VFL already.

If we can take advantage of geelongs need for the now great do it.

Why arent we into Langdon from freo?
Why arent we trying to get Cerra or Tucker from freo?

Carlisle & Pick 5 for BKING
Future 1st for BHILL
Lonie, Newnes & 2nd Round for TUCKER
Steven for CONSTABLE, ABBOT



3 quality players





Must get it done.

[SMS]

We need quality.
We do not need Zjones or Tomlinson on big $$$
Langlands will be better than Jones if given half a chance.

HILL, BKING & CONSTABLE should be everything IN THIS draft for us.

Constable is a gun of the future. 19yo that dominates VFL already.

If we can take advantage of geelongs need for the now great do it.

Why arent we into Langdon from freo?
Why arent we trying to get Cerra or Tucker from freo?

Pick 5 for 12,14 GWS
-------
Pick 12 & Future 1st for BKING
Pick 14 & Lonie for BHILL
Newnes, McKenzie & 2nd Round for TUCKER
Steven for CONSTABLE, ABBOT

4 quality players

Must get it done.

[stkfc1]

Conilglio staying a Giant. Watch them all come for Hill now. If we get him its a huge get for the club now.

[chook23]

Langdon (Freo) ........to Melbourne

[degruch]

One from left field - Tom Papley. Wants to come back to Victoria; a gun.

All but signed and sealed Hawks, isn't he?

[ace]

A spicy call from me but I would package up Bruce and a future 1st round pick for Ben King

I understand the romance, but trying to play both King's in our first 22 in 2020 will hurt as both are not physically strong enough yet. We also cannot afford to be a basket case in 2020 and it will be hard not to be with:
- Blues on the rise
- Surely the Demons could not be as bad (plus they get Anderson in the draft)? Doubt they will be great though.
- Swan have a lot of good young talent despite losing a lot of good older players this year
- Only Freo look to be on the slide

You just pointed to a good reason why Gold Coast should get a priority first round pick.
If Anderson goes to Melbourne we may never prize him loose, but if he goes to Gold Coast we may get him one day.

[bigred]

Dees are looking to split picks.

I reckon its them into Bruce

[saintbob]

Conilglio staying a Giant. Watch them all come for Hill now. If we get him its a huge get for the club now.

Yeah if we can still land him it will be absolutely massive for the club, Carlton will come very hard for both Hill and Tomlinson now.