Training

[SaintPav]

Did I totally write him off?

No, you did not nor did I mean to imply that you did...

[samoht]

Did I totally write him off?

No, you did not nor did I mean to imply that you did...

I didn't think you did either.
If Marto read your post carefully, he would have realised that too.

[Playon]

Bit of rumour mongering going on around the traps. No, Nathan did not train with the main group and hasn't for a few days. He is being managed and brought along slowly. He has felt a bit of soreness and been managed accordingly. Pretty well everything that was leaned overseas has eventuated. There is no time frame for Nathan.

So whats wrong with Brown? Thought he was doing ok

[Sainter_Dad]

Bit of rumour mongering going on around the traps. No, Nathan did not train with the main group and hasn't for a few days. He is being managed and brought along slowly. He has felt a bit of soreness and been managed accordingly. Pretty well everything that was leaned overseas has eventuated. There is no time frame for Nathan.

So whats wrong with Brown? Thought he was doing ok

Nathan Freeman - not Nathan Brown

[Playon]

Dunno maybe he meant Bourke
Should be a ban on first names and initials

But yeah I kind of got that

i heard some of the JB's are doing well, but not all the Nathans are, the JS's are doing well, but not sure which of them are back in full training. Good news, most of the jacks are promising and showing something.

[samoht]

....much ado about Nathan.

[st.byron]

Dunno maybe he meant Bourke
Should be a ban on first names and initials

But yeah I kind of got that

i heard some of the JB's are doing well, but not all the Nathans are, the JS's are doing well, but not sure which of them are back in full training. Good news, most of the jacks are promising and showing something.

I heard that amongst the JB's the Josh clique is ganging up on the Jack and the other Jacks are standing up to the Josh's.

[Playon]

Dunno maybe he meant Bourke
Should be a ban on first names and initials

But yeah I kind of got that

i heard some of the JB's are doing well, but not all the Nathans are, the JS's are doing well, but not sure which of them are back in full training. Good news, most of the jacks are promising and showing something.

I heard that amongst the JB's the Josh clique is ganging up on the Jack and the other Jacks are standing up to the Josh's.

You could be right, the Jakes may be a flash in the pan the justins are about finished but heard the next big thing will be the Jims, but hell
I could be Joshing

[st.byron]

Dunno maybe he meant Bourke
Should be a ban on first names and initials

But yeah I kind of got that

i heard some of the JB's are doing well, but not all the Nathans are, the JS's are doing well, but not sure which of them are back in full training. Good news, most of the jacks are promising and showing something.

I heard that amongst the JB's the Josh clique is ganging up on the Jack and the other Jacks are standing up to the Josh's.

You could be right, the Jakes may be a flash in the pan the justins are about finished but heard the next big thing will be the Jims, but hell
I could be Joshing

I Hird the Jakes are Jacked off with the Jim's and they'll never be big again. Jarryn is the next big thing.

[BigMart]

I'll preface this by saying hope he is ok, and it's no big drama.

TTT

Their are many experts running high performance mgt at elite organisations, and are we saying they get it right... All the time? Nathan is a valuable commodity, yes... And has cost the club plenty of money one third of the way into his contract, with no guarantees he'll play any of the second third, or that he can even play at the level.

Cricket Australia is a fairly elite organisation that has not been able to get bowlers fit to bowl, and handle the workload. Cummings, Pattinson, Siddle, Coulter Nile, Johnson, Watson, Tait, Harris... Continually broken down as a result of inability to manage their fitness and strength.

Yet in the 80's and 90's Up to 10 West Indian, 5 Aussie, 4 Pakistani, 3 SA and a NZer played year after year...County Cricket, Test Cricket, ODI and First Class cricket.

With only Bruce Reid, Ian Bishop and Shane Bond who broke down badly.

What's interesting with Freeman is he was sent to Germany after battling through a year in 2nd gear. Were they hoping he'd just come good and start getting a kick?
I remember having this same argument about professional management wrt Luke Ball in 2006, Barry Brooks in 2004, Raph Clarke in 2007, M.Maguire in 2007... All whom Ithink were mismanaged at one point. Of course Kosi was risked at least 3 times in his career, and poorly managed... To the point he didn't even want to play. Even his father was unhappy with his treatment in 02.

Nathan is in danger of losing confidence in his ability to play the game, It's happened to many a good player or talent. Injuries can have mental and physical effect. The more you 'manage' them, the more they think about it and the more it erodes the confidence in their body.

IMO
Rehab fully
Train fully
Play fully

If injured

Rehab again

If he is still modified after his Operation - which was early 2015 and his last relapse was early 2016 and he is still being managed, it's a concern.
N.Riewoldt tore his hammy off the bone in 2010 R3 - returned 16 weeks ready to for final series... But not everyone is N.Riewoldt
If he has done it to the severity of Jason Cripps (multiple), we should never have touched him

Anyways, good luck to him and hope things pan out

[Stephen Theodore]

If that's the case...

So much for an incident free pre season. He has been training fully, so for him to pulled out of training there has been an issue, and the club would prefer not to give it any media legs....

If it is 'awareness' in his hammies, I think he has some serious mental demons to overcome, and that will provide as much of an issue as the physical problems he has with his injuries. I watched him at Sandy last year, firstly he was not willing to explode with the footy, and looked to dish it off as soon as he got possesion, secondly he always looked to handball and preferred not to kick. This suggests that he has lost faith in his body and is thinking about getting re-injured.

Now if your fit to play, a game of any sorts, you need to be able to go 100% or you just don't play until you can... He was clearly not going at full speed in any contest, and was castigated for it a few times, and really, he barely touched the footy and struggled with the pace of the game and couldn't keep up.

This from a bloke who was an elite junior, with breakaway speed, and preferred to take the game on and kick, rather than give it off... Very similar to Jack Steven. If anything, he lacked composure, due to the speed in which he played.

His mental demons will be similar to a golfer who is thinking about outcome, rather than process... Ie/ worrying about where the ball's going, rather than concentrating on a tight swing. It happen's regularly when players lose confidence, Steve Finn lost his bowling action a few years ago and was sent home from the ashes tour, Trott lost his nerve and did the same. When a footballer loses confidence in his body, it can really effect his performance... Because a split second hesitation is the difference between winning a contest and not making a contest... And watching him last year, he was second guessing himself.

I seriously hope the boy makes it, he has some real tools... But he must let go of his baggage and just go for it... If his body fails again, so be it.. Then rehab and try again... But in elite sport, you cannot MANAGE performance, because the human element of confidence comes into play. Either he is fit (no excuses) or not fit (not playing)
There should be nothing in between IMO otherwise he will doubt himself and give himself excuses.

Yep, I agree. For Cox to come out with the statement "he may not play in 2017" is not a good sign.

[Con Gorozidis]

I am going early. This is cause for concern

[st.byron]

If that's the case...

So much for an incident free pre season. He has been training fully, so for him to pulled out of training there has been an issue, and the club would prefer not to give it any media legs....

If it is 'awareness' in his hammies, I think he has some serious mental demons to overcome, and that will provide as much of an issue as the physical problems he has with his injuries. I watched him at Sandy last year, firstly he was not willing to explode with the footy, and looked to dish it off as soon as he got possesion, secondly he always looked to handball and preferred not to kick. This suggests that he has lost faith in his body and is thinking about getting re-injured.

Now if your fit to play, a game of any sorts, you need to be able to go 100% or you just don't play until you can... He was clearly not going at full speed in any contest, and was castigated for it a few times, and really, he barely touched the footy and struggled with the pace of the game and couldn't keep up.

This from a bloke who was an elite junior, with breakaway speed, and preferred to take the game on and kick, rather than give it off... Very similar to Jack Steven. If anything, he lacked composure, due to the speed in which he played.

His mental demons will be similar to a golfer who is thinking about outcome, rather than process... Ie/ worrying about where the ball's going, rather than concentrating on a tight swing. It happen's regularly when players lose confidence, Steve Finn lost his bowling action a few years ago and was sent home from the ashes tour, Trott lost his nerve and did the same. When a footballer loses confidence in his body, it can really effect his performance... Because a split second hesitation is the difference between winning a contest and not making a contest... And watching him last year, he was second guessing himself.

I seriously hope the boy makes it, he has some real tools... But he must let go of his baggage and just go for it... If his body fails again, so be it.. Then rehab and try again... But in elite sport, you cannot MANAGE performance, because the human element of confidence comes into play. Either he is fit (no excuses) or not fit (not playing)
There should be nothing in between IMO otherwise he will doubt himself and give himself excuses.

Yep, I agree. For Cox to come out with the statement "he may not play in 2017" is not a good sign.

Yep, when Tony posted that he became aware of some soreness my first thought was he's going to be an injury bust......hope I'm wrong.

[kosifantutti]

List of Saints players not guaranteed to play in 2017:

1. Tom Hickey
2. Jake Carlisle
3. Jack Steven
4. Jade Gresham
5. Shane Savage
6. Seb Ross
7. Luke Dunstan
8. Blake Acres
9. Jack Steele
10. Nathan Freeman
11. Leigh Montagna
12. Nick Riewoldt
13. Jack Lonie
14. Jarryn Geary
15. Jack Billings
16. Jack Newnes
17. Dylan Roberton
18. Billy Longer
19. Sam Gilbert
20. David Armitage
21. Ben Long
22. Nathan Brown
23. Hugh Goddard
24. Sean Dempster
25. Koby Stevens
26. Josh Battle
27. Josh Bruce
28. Tim Membrey
29. Jimmy Webster
30. Ed Phillips
31. Brandon White
32. Paddy McCartin
33. Nick O'Kearney
34. Nathan Wright
35. Jack Sinclair
36. Daniel McKenzie
37. Bailey Rice
38. Nick Coughlan
39. Darragh Joyce
40. Ray Connellan
41. Darren Minchington
42. Lewis Pierce
43. Rowan Marshall
44. Maverick Weller
45. Jason Holmes
46. Joe Baker-Thomas
47. Barclay Miller

[Stephen Theodore]

List of Saints players not guaranteed to play in 2017:

1. Tom Hickey
2. Jake Carlisle
3. Jack Steven
4. Jade Gresham
5. Shane Savage
6. Seb Ross
7. Luke Dunstan
8. Blake Acres
9. Jack Steele
10. Nathan Freeman
11. Leigh Montagna
12. Nick Riewoldt
13. Jack Lonie
14. Jarryn Geary
15. Jack Billings
16. Jack Newnes
17. Dylan Roberton
18. Billy Longer
19. Sam Gilbert
20. David Armitage
21. Ben Long
22. Nathan Brown
23. Hugh Goddard
24. Sean Dempster
25. Koby Stevens
26. Josh Battle
27. Josh Bruce
28. Tim Membrey
29. Jimmy Webster
30. Ed Phillips
31. Brandon White
32. Paddy McCartin
33. Nick O'Kearney
34. Nathan Wright
35. Jack Sinclair
36. Daniel McKenzie
37. Bailey Rice
38. Nick Coughlan
39. Darragh Joyce
40. Ray Connellan
41. Darren Minchington
42. Lewis Pierce
43. Rowan Marshall
44. Maverick Weller
45. Jason Holmes
46. Joe Baker-Thomas
47. Barclay Miller

Point taken Kosi, and I'm a glass half full person, but I'm not liking that comment by Cox.

On a brighter note, what a good list we're compiling. You really can see the quality when it's set out as above.

[To the top]

"the more you "manage" them the more they think about it and the more it erodes the confidence in their body"

Really?

And that is the case with Freeman?

So what exactly are you really implying in regards Freeman?

These days injury management is a science, with contributions global to the extent that the injuries that cruelled the careers of Barrie Robran, Greg Turbill and others would not have produced that result.

Both Turbill and Robran played on after their injuries, but were restricted to merely good players, not the Champions they were pre injury.

Jeff Hammond's back injury, on the tour of the West Indies is more problematic as backs can be due to degeneration but, at the very least, Jeff returned to Shield cricket as a medium pacer who could bat a bit.

Jeff never again bowled with the searing pace he had before injury.

Peter Crimmins diagnosis would not have been terminal today.

So you trust in the science and the advancement of science - and you monitor the results of that trust.

The days of "rip, s*** or bust" no longer exist.

[Devilhead]

So was Freeman going half chat when he racked up 46 possessions in that Sandy 2nds game?

[saintsRrising]

There are always negatives, but IMO if you look at the Saints as an overall heading in 2017 we are in much better shape that we have been for a while.

Being worried about skill level this early early is not really a concern. Having watched the Saints train over decades during many pre-seasons sharp skills are not normally what is on on offer at this stage of the season.

As a group the players are in good nick. Indeed we probably have less pre-season fitness concerns that we have often had

Jake, Stevens, Steele, Brown are all ready to play and could well all play round one. One reason why they may not is simply as there is now fierce competition to make the final 22. Rare it is that the Saints have added so much ready to play talent in the one off-season.

We have only really lost Fisher, and even then he missed a lot of 2016.

No we are in robust shape. I am not at all phased by the training of our players, but rather on how many of our young to youngish players can make the next step in their improvement.

[st.byron]

There are always negatives, but IMO if you look at the Saints as an overall heading in 2017 we are in much better shape that we have been for a while.

Being worried about skill level this early early is not really a concern. Having watched the Saints train over decades during many pre-seasons sharp skills are not normally what is on on offer at this stage of the season.

As a group the players are in good nick. Indeed we probably have less pre-season fitness concerns that we have often had

Jake, Stevens, Steele, Brown are all ready to play and could well all play round one. One reason why they may not is simply as there is now fierce competition to make the final 22. Rare it is that the Saints have added so much ready to play talent in the one off-season.

We have only really lost Fisher, and even then he missed a lot of 2016.

No we are in robust shape. I am not at all phased by the training of our players, but rather on how many of our young to youngish players can make the next step in their improvement.

Agree. Last week i was looking at the list player by player and fast forwarding in my mind to year's end. Who are the candidates for de-listing? Jumping ahead I know, but even at this stage last year it wasn't so difficult to identify who might be under the pump to hold their spot on the list. But now.......Billy Longer perhaps, unless he develops a more rounded game. Bailey Rice maybe but early days for him???? Who else? That to me is an indicator that our list is in a healthy state.
It would be some time since the list looked so lean without players with 'clog factor'.

[mad saint guy]

Last week i was looking at the list player by player and fast forwarding in my mind to year's end. Who are the candidates for de-listing? Jumping ahead I know, but even at this stage last year it wasn't so difficult to identify who might be under the pump to hold their spot on the list. But now.......Billy Longer perhaps, unless he develops a more rounded game. Bailey Rice maybe but early days for him???? Who else? That to me is an indicator that our list is in a healthy state.
It would be some time since the list looked so lean without players with 'clog factor'.

Absolutely. At the beginning of most seasons in recent memory it was easy to pick a few players who were obvious candidates for delisting and a few more who would get the chop unless they showed unexpected improvement. This year the only guy who you could fairly confidently say won't be playing on in 2018 is Dempster. Wright and Minchington both would have been under a lot of pressure though they signed 2-year deals near the end of last year. Lewis Pierce has been developing steadily and offers a degree of flexibility and skill that Longer and Holmes don't. I do expect one of our rucks to go at the end of this year, whether that is Longer or Pierce via trade or Holmes by delisting.

Poor seasons from Rice, Gilbert, Sinclair and Lonie would see them all under pressure but things would have to be pretty bad for them to be delisted. I suppose Wright and Minch could both be paid out if they are nowhere near our best team by the end of the season as well. Wouldn't surprise me to see some players traded out either; our improved depth will mean that some decent players will struggle for opportunity/tear it up in the VFL and attract interest from other clubs.

[BigMart]

Be careful trusting too many people in the sports and fitness industry too often. There is a reason methodology is always evolving and new programs are being developed and old theories get debunked... They are not, and never can be a proven success. At the end of the day, it's a bit of a guessing game (with some evidential research)

Sports scientists need an income, they need to develop different ideas and sell beliefs, some are good, some not so good.

What I'm interested in is how management of injury effects performance on a confidence level? Not necessarily a physical level.
Couple of reasons
I have suffered some major injuries (back, broken leg and ankle, and a knee) and struggled to get back belief in my body to play footy at the level I used to be, even after rehab.
And because I've seen many footballers never come back the same after injury, whilst others have returned from similar injuries just fine. Resilience has a huge part to play, and I know the more I thought about my injuries, the more it got ingrained into my psyche.

As for my skepticism of some sports science, it's actually in my field. It certainly has its place in sport (particularly at the elite level)
But I believe sport science should support sports development and programs and coaches, not control sports programs.

Ie/ I think Pat Howard has a disgusting track record, and has been detrimental for Aust Cricket

And because each athlete is different, it's impossible to ever be right, no matter the 'science' because of the intangibles

[saintsRrising]

Agree. Last week i was looking at the list player by player and fast forwarding in my mind to year's end. Who are the candidates for de-listing? Jumping ahead I know, but even at this stage last year it wasn't so difficult to identify who might be under the pump to hold their spot on the list. But now.......Billy Longer perhaps, unless he develops a more rounded game. Bailey Rice maybe but early days for him???? Who else? That to me is an indicator that our list is in a healthy state.
It would be some time since the list looked so lean without players with 'clog factor'.

Exactly,

In recent years you were really pushing to select your best 22 as you were struggling who to put into it. Whereas now it is you are struggling because it is very very hard to work out who will get left out.


Rice got hot with glandular fever and this can in many cases badly knock you about and leave you lacking energy fora long period. He looked quite good late last year at Sandi and so I think. We will see more from him this year. Though in 2017 he also has a lot more compete with.

Longer is the main question mark for me. The vibe seems to be that he just does not want to work hard enough. Let us hope that he gets swept along in the positive momentum. Though also in Longer's case Hickey just looks to be a more complete footballer and showed it last season after having at last been able to get his body right.

[White Winmar]

Pat Howard and the man who first handled Freeman, Bill Davoren, are good examples of men who are highly qualified in their fields, but seem incapable of bringing practical advantage to their workplaces. They are hardly alone in that. The best selection news at the saints in recent years was In - Hornsby, Out - Davoren. Remember our injury record under Davoren, and compare it to the past couple of years. Hornsby and his team have been another great off field appointment. We really have our s*** together at last. We are in good hands. A definite reason to be cheerful.

[saintspremiers]

I looking forward to Freeman playing 5 games for Sandy this year. Hopefully at full pace

[tony74]

I am going early. This is cause for concern

I said a bit sore. I said going to plan.
Training at full pace as we speak.