Flag tilt 5 years away?

[bergholt]

WHY aren't Dunnell, Ross, Ledger demanding spots??

WHY did Siposs look B grade on Friday night?

This is tongue-in-cheek, right? Siposs is 20 and has played 18 games - he's not going to be consistently A-grade at this point because no-one is. Ross is 19, Ledger 21 and Dunell 23, and between them they've played 12 games. Plenty of development required before we know whether or not they'll be any good. But I know you know all this.

[Quixote]

WHY aren't Dunnell, Ross, Ledger demanding spots??

WHY did Siposs look B grade on Friday night?

This is tongue-in-cheek, right? Siposs is 20 and has played 18 games - he's not going to be consistently A-grade at this point because no-one is. Ross is 19, Ledger 21 and Dunell 23, and between them they've played 12 games. Plenty of development required before we know whether or not they'll be any good. But I know you know all this.

No mate he's actually not. Siposs has been very ordinary in his first two games, and the likes of Dunnell, Ross and Ledger - with Ross being a hard call but let's leave it in there - are seriously behind where they should be. There are plenty of other teams with younger players coming in and making big impacts. It hasn't happened at St Kilda for 10 years I reckon. Not since Grant Thomas.

Hard truths. Would Ross be playing if he were at Essendon? If yes, why is he not playing for us? If not - how is his development going? First round draft pick.

[markp]

Bottom 4 sounds awesome, at least we can go back to abusing the s*** out of any and everyone and at the same time being kind of liked for being shithouse.

That's one way to avoid mediocrity... bypass it and go straight to lamentable.

[mr six o'clock]

We can turn it around quicker !

At seasons end we should have plenty of room in our salary cap to attract some decent trades and a low ladder position will enable us to pick up some talented kids in the draft .
As the year wears on Watters will introduce more of the younger talent , so by 2015 we can be up there again!

[ShanghaiSaint]

Everyones saying give the kids time..but time is something we dont have.

Yesterday a bloke with 15 games under his belt kicked 5 goals and was BOG in one of the biggest games of the year. Seen one of our 15 gamers do that recently? Collingwood have 6-8 regular players out yet still win huge games..cos when we were recruiting Johnson, Cahill Pattinson and Heyne they were recruiting Beams Sidebottom Fasolo Jolly and Blair. Thats why they are Top 4 and we arent..to be brutal. Their depth (and Geelongs and Hawthorns) is so much better than ourt its not funny

Cool..we'll give this side til 2016 to show their wares....just as the GWS/GC kids hit their straps and dominate Top 4

What happend to our famed defenceive presser where teams were harrassed and forced into mistakes. We have the core of the back six still there and our midfield so what happend.

Was it RL?

.

Look at freo these days, like looking at the 09 saints team in a lot of ways.

[Quixote]

Bottom 4 sounds awesome, at least we can go back to abusing the s*** out of any and everyone and at the same time being kind of liked for being shithouse.

That's one way to avoid mediocrity... bypass it and go straight to lamentable.

Saints and sinners right?

[BigMart]

Would we have made the grand finals with a player under 21 in the teams?

Geelong did
Hawthorn did
Collingwood did

It could be argued a couple of our better kids Armo, Jack, Geary, Stanley... May have been better options than some of delisted junk we had in the teams.... And maybe we would of won

In GF 2010... Who would have concerned Maxwell more, a player who can offensively hurt him and have to be defended... Or a limited player trying to defend him? Nick had two poor games... Why? He had to deal with his opponent and someone else's opponent.

Why are some arguing that developing and challenging are mutually exclusive??
The key to SUSTAINED success is to do both of them concurrently...... No matter how good your list/team is, you have to continually roll over the players .... Bring quality in gradually all of the time...

Can't change a winning team my arse... If you don't, you stagnate, as soon as you do that you get overtaken!

[dragit]

Hey Marto, this thread was going alright until you turned it into another hindsight rave... Lyon mistakes are done, nearly everyone agrees that Polo, Gamble, Pattison etc etc were mistakes. Can't do anything about it now.

Let's talk more about what we think needs to be done to regenerate.

Who do you think we should be trying to get games into? At who's expense?

[Sobraz]

At the end of 2008 when we were belted by Hawthorn in the Prelim, I thought our chance of a flag was drying up after a successful 5/6 years of a few prelims and finals series...

Then we made back to back GF's without taking one home..

We could be back there in 24 months, with the right recruiting, development and management...

Things can turn very quickly, and 2018/9 as some have suggested in the thread is far to distant to even contemplate...

2015 back into the 8 and perhaps shake the top 4 for mine...

[plugger66]

Would we have made the grand finals with a player under 21 in the teams?

Geelong did
Hawthorn did
Collingwood did

It could be argued a couple of our better kids Armo, Jack, Geary, Stanley... May have been better options than some of delisted junk we had in the teams.... And maybe we would of won

In GF 2010... Who would have concerned Maxwell more, a player who can offensively hurt him and have to be defended... Or a limited player trying to defend him? Nick had two poor games... Why? He had to deal with his opponent and someone else's opponent.

Why are some arguing that developing and challenging are mutually exclusive??
The key to SUSTAINED success is to do both of them concurrently...... No matter how good your list/team is, you have to continually roll over the players .... Bring quality in gradually all of the time...

Can't change a winning team my arse... If you don't, you stagnate, as soon as you do that you get overtaken!

Hindsight because you didnt have any player dropped in either GF. Well you certainly didnt have Armo, Jack, geary or Stanley in your side. You love hindsight.

[bergholt]

It could be argued a couple of our better kids Armo, Jack, Geary, Stanley... May have been better options than some of delisted junk we had in the teams.... And maybe we would of won

One of the worst players in the 09 GF was Dempster, playing as an ineffective defensive forward. Was he one of those? At that point he'd basically never done anything good for the Saints, but maybe giving him games back then led to the AA Dempster we saw last year. Who f****** knows?

All we can say is that we were in contention for a premiership and I personally have no problems with the coaching team at the time doing absolutely everything they thought was necessary to try to get us there. Even if they'd said "we reckon we're going to be s*** in four years but we'll have a chance at a flag in the short-term" - I would have taken that deal in a heartbeat. And I reckon everyone else would have as well.

[BigMart]

I think the ball was absolutely dropped in 2009/2010 as funny as that sounds.and that it's a bit of too little too late, trying to draft 21-23yo's to fill a void of incomptance.

I remember getting torn to shreds by apologists for criticising selections, draft picks and development. I did say that I thought, we would eventually pay.
Now at least the mistakes are accepted.... For a while, they were defended.

What can we do now?!

Identify a core for our next premiership assault.... Identify what needs to be drafted, what needs to be traded, get games into young players.
We have an unbalanced team.... Needs to be fixed.... Eg. Why do we have 9 HBF's

Who I rate as good players going fwd
Siposs, Newnes, Armitage, Stanley, McEvoy, Geary, Wright, Milera, Gwilt
Probably good
Curran, Ross, Simpkin, Murdoch, Hickey, Saad, Minchington
Possibly Good
Ledger, White, Roberton, Markworth, Ferguson, Pierce, Saunders, Dunnell, Lee
Unlikely
Lever, Shenton, Staley, Webster

Players who won't be a part of the next team
Riewoldt, Ray, Maister, Hayes, Milne, Blake, Fisher, Dempster, Kosi, Gilbert, Schnieder, TDL, CJ.... There is a lot more talent in this group than the rest
They need to be staggered out of the team.... Starting with Kosi, Blake, CJ (as much as I like him)

Joey an Dal .... One of them could play another 5-6 years

[mad saint guy]

At the end of 2008 when we were belted by Hawthorn in the Prelim, I thought our chance of a flag was drying up after a successful 5/6 years of a few prelims and finals series...

Then we made back to back GF's without taking one home..

We could be back there in 24 months, with the right recruiting, development and management...

Things can turn very quickly, and 2018/9 as some have suggested in the thread is far to distant to even contemplate...

2015 back into the 8 and perhaps shake the top 4 for mine...

I had the same feeling after '08, but the difference then was that we had Roo, Hayes, Goddard, Kosi, Fisher, Dal, Joey, Ball, Milne, Gram, Blake and Schneider all in or entering their prime (24-28) for 2009. Then there was support from Hudghton, Baker, Gardiner and King who were all above average in their positions.

We just don't have that core in the right age group to seriously challenge again for a long time. The players who are in their prime years currently are Ray, Maister, Gwilt, Gilbert, Milera, Armitage, TDL and Geary. Not exactly the kind of list we had in '09.

[Sobraz]

At the end of 2008 when we were belted by Hawthorn in the Prelim, I thought our chance of a flag was drying up after a successful 5/6 years of a few prelims and finals series...

Then we made back to back GF's without taking one home..

We could be back there in 24 months, with the right recruiting, development and management...

Things can turn very quickly, and 2018/9 as some have suggested in the thread is far to distant to even contemplate...

2015 back into the 8 and perhaps shake the top 4 for mine...

I had the same feeling after '08, but the difference then was that we had Roo, Hayes, Goddard, Kosi, Fisher, Dal, Joey, Ball, Milne, Gram, Blake and Schneider all in or entering their prime (24-28) for 2009. Then there was support from Hudghton, Baker, Gardiner and King who were all above average in their positions.

We just don't have that core in the right age group to seriously challenge again for a long time. The players who are in their prime years currently are Ray, Maister, Gwilt, Gilbert, Milera, Armitage, TDL and Geary. Not exactly the kind of list we had in '09.

True, but I'd hope next time around we have a more even spread, a opposed to an over-reliance on our top shelf which brought us undone in 09/10... The bottom 4-6 player will hopefully be superior in 2015 onwards to then...

In saying that, we were coming out of an era where Hamill, Gehrig, Thompson, Harves, Jones, Max etc were our core, and before we knew it they were replaced with an even better group.. It can change quickly..

[BigMart]

Weren't players just getting used to the r.lyon game plan.... We improved 5 spots on 2007.... So we were on the way up with 6 AGrade core players between 25-27.... Surely you were on us to finsh top 4? Most did.

P66
Wish you'd provide some evidence to support your claim, because atm your just sprucing I know for a fact I had Dal on a HFF taking Eddy's spot.... Must have had an 'in' for Dal..... Maybe it was cousins?

[plugger66]

Weren't players just getting used to the r.lyon game plan.... We improved 5 spots on 2007.... So we were on the way up with 6 AGrade core players between 25-27.... Surely you were on us to finsh top 4? Most did.

P66
Wish you'd provide some evidence to support your claim, because atm your just sprucing I know for a fact I had Dal on a HFF taking Eddy's spot.... Must have had an 'in' for Dal..... Maybe it was cousins?

The evidence is there for you to see. It will take a minute to see you never mentioned Armo in either GF nor Steven or Stanley. You said geary for Eddy. That was your one change in 09 and you had none in 10. Now you want 4. That is called 100% hindsight.

[tweedaletomanning]

Everyones saying give the kids time..but time is something we dont have.

Yesterday a bloke with 15 games under his belt kicked 5 goals and was BOG in one of the biggest games of the year. Seen one of our 15 gamers do that recently? Collingwood have 6-8 regular players out yet still win huge games..cos when we were recruiting Johnson, Cahill Pattinson and Heyne they were recruiting Beams Sidebottom Fasolo Jolly and Blair. Thats why they are Top 4 and we arent..to be brutal. Their depth (and Geelongs and Hawthorns) is so much better than ourt its not funny

Cool..we'll give this side til 2016 to show their wares....just as the GWS/GC kids hit their straps and dominate Top 4

+ 1

Agree Entirely, its great to have kids that MIGHT go Ok and be good. Thats all very well and nice....

BUT!!!!

They HAVE to be as good or better than the Other clubs kids, or really we are not getting anywhere.

Thats a combination of DEVELOPMENT and Recruiting.

Still not convinced on Pelchen, but he's only been there 2 minutes, so got to give him a couple more years, or

AGGRESSIVELY go after the Filths or cats Recruiting guys, because they are PROVEN!!

[bigred]

5 years is a bit optimistic for mine.

None of our kids are the immediate impact type, they are all longer term options.

Ten years maybe. I think we should completely forget about free agency for a number of years.

2020 maybe. I have a feeling this could be a slower burn, without bottoming out too heavily.

[kaos theory]

I hate to say it but I think it is more to do with development than recruitment.
Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn all have the resources to take in young players and have almost personalised training programs developed for them.
What this means is that they can take a middle of the road kid and give them every opportunity to turn them into a servicable player.
We don't have those resources so middle of the road kids remain middle of the road.
Our kids are just as good as everyone elses kids.
It is no coincidence that the richer teams with better resources seem to recruit players who are ready for senior football sooner than the poorer teams can. They are not recruiting better thay are developing better.
The cream shows through regardless of the development but it is in developing the midrange players where the well resourced clubs hav a huge advantage.

Finally! someone else is on about something I've been saying for years.

To me, this is a big part of it. But its more than that: A well resourced club can improve every facet of the football department. It can be 5% or 10% better vs. a poorly/average resourced club. That 's across recruiting, player development, injury management, fitness, etc....All these add up to big differences, and give these clubs the egde and opportunity to play in more finals and win flags.

Over 2000 to 2003, we got lucky with some great DP, but that's not enough. We had major waeknesses in our footy department throughout the 2000 to 20010 period, that was masked by the on field successes.

I believe we have been doing the rights things over the last 2 years (re-structure footy dept, pelchan, new coach, etc...). I think we have a chance to get an edge, even without the cash of some of the big clubs, but it will take time to correct.

[battye]

I think Elliots game is a little overplayed (ducks for cover)

I think it more has to do with throwing a spanner into the works of the opposition coach, who probably hasn't prepared for that particular guy.

It's entirely possible that a kid not particularly starring in the VFL for us, could come in and have good impact for exactly the same reason, that nobody prepared for them.

There is also the scenario of McGuane against us the other night, not sure anyone prepared for that.

I'd like to see say Dunnel in to play down back and Gears into the midfield, not sure Sheeds would expect that.....those are the kind of scenarios that I'm talking about, a debutant that has the advantage of not having much history, or a strategic move.

Take your point..but when was the last time one of our blokes with that amount of experience snuck under the radar grabbed a game by the scruff of his neck? Luke Ball? Roo? Sure as hell noone in the last 10 years

Agree 100% saint66au. None of the current lot have excited me the way Riewoldt or Kosi or Ball or Dal Santo did 10+ years ago. You just knew early on that group had star potential.

Of the current group, the likes of Armitage, Geary, Steven even Stanley have been in the system for a couple of years and have not shown much beyond being serviceable players. It could change, but none of them are exactly knocking on the AA door. I get the feeling our next star players are not on the list yet, so I think 5 years is a reasonable, if not a little conservative, estimate before we're a genuine chance again.

I can't remember the last time a young St Kilda player grabbed a game by the throat. Gwilt? As you said, it's been a damn long time.

Jury is still out on Pelchen by the way. If Lee doesn't come good then we just threw a first round pick away on, yet another, reject from another club. Same with Hickey to a lesser degree - personally I'm not a fan of trading away first round draft picks unless you're getting real quality in return. And Lee and Hickey are, at best, known-to-be-average quantities. I'd prefer to develop talent from the draft. But it was a risk, it could yet prove to be inspired.

[Dis Believer]

Why are some arguing that developing and challenging are mutually exclusive??
The key to SUSTAINED success is to do both of them concurrently...... No matter how good your list/team is, you have to continually roll over the players .... Bring quality in gradually all of the time...

Can't change a winning team my arse... If you don't, you stagnate, as soon as you do that you get overtaken!

This is the most sensible and accurate thing you have ever posted........

Basically bringing in two or three quality players per year EVERY year, rolls your first 22 over continuously.

[saintsRrising]

Example
Riewoldts injury..... Better off playing a Pattison or Stanley.
Midfield injury....... Playing Polo or Steven
Gwilt injury....... Playing Blake or Simpkin

Since Geelong are the benckmark and youth is the only way to go:
Why are they playing Rivers?
Why did they pick up and play the Big O last year?
Why have they taken Hamish this year?
Why did they give the old J pod a crack

Personally I think it mainly boils down to most of our youth not being good enough. Pump more games into Lynch and I doubt it would have made much difference.

For many seasons we were pretty appalling at spotting young talent.

[bobmurray]

Bottom 4 sounds awesome, at least we can go back to abusing the s*** out of any and everyone and at the same time being kind of liked for being shithouse.

I don't mind calling a player a dud on here because to me it's meaningless....

I don't do it at the footy though...I leave that for all the other idiots....

[chook23]

I think Elliots game is a little overplayed (ducks for cover)

I think it more has to do with throwing a spanner into the works of the opposition coach, who probably hasn't prepared for that particular guy.

It's entirely possible that a kid not particularly starring in the VFL for us, could come in and have good impact for exactly the same reason, that nobody prepared for them.

There is also the scenario of McGuane against us the other night, not sure anyone prepared for that.

I'd like to see say Dunnel in to play down back and Gears into the midfield, not sure Sheeds would expect that.....those are the kind of scenarios that I'm talking about, a debutant that has the advantage of not having much history, or a strategic move.

Take your point..but when was the last time one of our blokes with that amount of experience snuck under the radar grabbed a game by the scruff of his neck? Luke Ball? Roo? Sure as hell noone in the last 10 years

Agree 100% saint66au. None of the current lot have excited me the way Riewoldt or Kosi or Ball or Dal Santo did 10+ years ago. You just knew early on that group had star potential.

Of the current group, the likes of Armitage, Geary, Steven even Stanley have been in the system for a couple of years and have not shown much beyond being serviceable players. It could change, but none of them are exactly knocking on the AA door. I get the feeling our next star players are not on the list yet, so I think 5 years is a reasonable, if not a little conservative, estimate before we're a genuine chance again.I can't remember the last time a young St Kilda player grabbed a game by the throat. Gwilt? As you said, it's been a damn long time.

Jury is still out on Pelchen by the way. If Lee doesn't come good then we just threw a first round pick away on, yet another, reject from another club. Same with Hickey to a lesser degree - personally I'm not a fan of trading away first round draft picks unless you're getting real quality in return. And Lee and Hickey are, at best, known-to-be-average quantities. I'd prefer to develop talent from the draft. But it was a risk, it could yet prove to be inspired.

Highlighted...to large font

My thoughts exactly.

[chook23]

I think Elliots game is a little overplayed (ducks for cover)

I think it more has to do with throwing a spanner into the works of the opposition coach, who probably hasn't prepared for that particular guy.

It's entirely possible that a kid not particularly starring in the VFL for us, could come in and have good impact for exactly the same reason, that nobody prepared for them.

There is also the scenario of McGuane against us the other night, not sure anyone prepared for that.I'd like to see say Dunnel in to play down back and Gears into the midfield, not sure Sheeds would expect that.....those are the kind of scenarios that I'm talking about, a debutant that has the advantage of not having much history, or a strategic move.

He played the exact same role in round 1 V Carlton

Surely we knew he would be the third tall.