Beware the "total rebuild"!

[CURLY]

Nothing to be skeptical about. Both where required by there previous clubs. Very unlucky both suffered injuries thuined their careers.

[Mitch35]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

2001 AFL Draft
Picks 2, 5, 21, 37, 49
Rookie Picks 2, 18

2. Luke Ball for Chris Judd (#3)
5. Xavier Clarke for James Bartel (#8)
13. Nick Dal Santo
21. Matt Maguire
37. Leigh Montagna
49. Josh Houlihan for Dane Swan (#58)

Rookie Draft:
2. Josh Dicketts for Carrazo (#5) or Jamar (#6)
18. Ben Schwarze for Bock (#25) or Sandilands (#33)

2002 AFL Draft
Picks 1, 17, 31, 46, 61, 68, 73, 80, 85, 88.
Retain picks 6 & 31 from Brooks trade

1. Brendan Goddard
6. Brooks for Steven Salopek
22. Matthew Ferguson for Daniel Merrett (#30)
31. Brooks for Kade Simpson (#45)
46. Leigh Fisher for Adam Selwood (#53)

2003 AFL Draft
Picks 8, 55, 65, 71, 74
(23 traded for Gram, 39 for Guerra)

8. Raphael Clarke for Beau Waters (#11)
55. Sam Fisher

So Judd, Bartel, Swan, Carrazo/Jamar, Bock/Sandilands, Salopek, Merrett, Simpson, A Selwood, Waters could have all been on our list...

The point is...

SO?

Living in the past isn't going to change a thing, enjoy looking forward to our current crop of young guns coming through. It's hindsight, the players were picked based on their ability at the time, its not like we had a crystal ball...

I have faith in Team Watters to recruit players who fit our needs in performance, professionalism and that match the club culture.

[skeptic]

Sorry Mitch, I really don't understand your point nobody is living in the past of ruing missed picks.

The point is that if you go back to the 2001-03 drafts even though we didn't nail it... our overall effort is respectable... especially with our early picks... Roo, Kosi, Monty, Dal, Goddard etc and Ball were key in 04-05 (granted BJ took longer to come on) and again in 09-10 (granted Ball left for 11) - the majority of them including Ball pre injury were/are really good value for the pick

The break down for Melb, Rich etc is that they fluffed a lot of their early picks - McLean, Silvia, Watts to name a few for Melb, Morton and Tambling (though they did a bit better with Cotchin, Riewoldt and Martin hence their improvement).

The majority of the best players go early in the draft, when you get your chance you need to nail it.

For us, it wasn't the wasted picks on Will Johnson, Cahill, Smith etc that cost us it was fluffing the Lovett trade, Lynch, as well as Armitage+ McEvoy to a substantially less degree)

[gringo]

The Brookes and Watts trades where very good trades at the time. No one could have predicted the serious injuries both recieved.

they didn't get them straight away and possibly could have come on but giving away a first round pick for board members kids wants to be an AWESOME pick. brookes played plenty of poor games in the ressies.

[gringo]

Sorry Mitch, I really don't understand your point nobody is living in the past of ruing missed picks.

The point is that if you go back to the 2001-03 drafts even though we didn't nail it... our overall effort is respectable... especially with our early picks... Roo, Kosi, Monty, Dal, Goddard etc and Ball were key in 04-05 (granted BJ took longer to come on) and again in 09-10 (granted Ball left for 11) - the majority of them including Ball pre injury were/are really good value for the pick

The break down for Melb, Rich etc is that they fluffed a lot of their early picks - McLean, Silvia, Watts to name a few for Melb, Morton and Tambling (though they did a bit better with Cotchin, Riewoldt and Martin hence their improvement).

The majority of the best players go early in the draft, when you get your chance you need to nail it.

For us, it wasn't the wasted picks on Will Johnson, Cahill, Smith etc that cost us it was fluffing the Lovett trade, Lynch, as well as Armitage+ McEvoy to a substantially less degree)

I heard we were after that guy that went to Brissie and then carlton can't think of his name but Brisbane took him with the pick they were expected to get Mc Evoy with so we swapped at the last minute.

[70s sainter]

Of course we should do it well, but you've missed the point. There are significant differences in the way the successful clubs and unsuccessful clubs have operated. The successful clubs have invested heavily in player development...

i understood your point, but you've got no evidence to prove it. you're saying that melbourne didn't spend on player development, if i understand correctly. is that actually true? where is the financial data to prove it? maybe they did spend, but they did it badly. it's not exactly a panacea.

...and have actively pursued non-traditional sources for recruitment.

i'm not sure exactly what you mean by that, or what the positive effect was. I know that melbourne pushed the envelope by recruiting weetra, woneamirri and jurrah in successive seasons from fairly untapped aboriginal regions. is that the sort of thing you're talking about?

We will only rebuild well if we innovate, rather than merely follow.

nah, i still disagree. "innovation" means taking risks, and we have relatively limited money. the pies can afford to take risks. i'm not sure we can - we take risks and then we've neglected more predictably useful channels. it's a risk-reward trade off and depends on your appetite for risk.

Brilliant post by white winmar.
Re: Player development - i think its common knowledge that the sides on top of the ladder at the moment are generally the bigger clubs who have more money to spend on this. Melbourne have made a consciese effort to spend more but they prob still lag behind.

Re: Non traditional sources of recruitment - ww means tweaking our picks to pick up both milera and saad.Worked well and there may be a couple more opportunites like this next year with gold coast and gws.

Re:Innovation-To imitate another successful clubs methods merely keeps up,But to innovate can give you an advantage over the rest until they imitate you.

[saintsRrising]

Hey SRS, the 1st pick is the most important because the best players are avialable generally at the top end though you are correct in that it's better to consistetly get your draft picks right... which is i think an area we are improving in. Certainly our late and rookie picks have been pretty good,

Just to clarify my point RE early drafting... I posted this on a different thread just recently

Yes I understand your point now.

Both the Cats and Pies when they dipped own, nailed their picks...Selwood for the Cats..and Daisy for the Pies. The Pies traded for the exact players they needed (after a period of poor trades). Even the Cats who were not big traders did trade for the exact pick they needed in Ottens.


Deft drafting and trading does make a difference.

Right here and now we have had two good years of drafting and trading combined. If we can really nail it like we did last year it could be just what we need to go back up the ladder...as long asa number of existing kids progress next year.

In terms of 2013 success...nailing a FB is probably the No 1 need.

[Scollop]

...nailing a FB is probably the No 1 need.

Are we ready to challenge in 2013 for top4? I know there are some who think we miss Dawson, and Zac would do a better job on Hawkins or Cloke or Buddy..maybe he would... but I would argue all day that Tom Simpkin is a better defender and a more important contributor to the back 6 over the year than Dawson ever could be.

Tom should be able to put on a kilo or two you'd think. I have no doubt that Tom Simpkin will improve and he has so much upside.

Same height as both David Dench and Matty Scarlett. This was his breakout year and I'm confident he'll be able to do the job very well in 2013 and beyond.

[tweedaletomanning]

...nailing a FB is probably the No 1 need.

From where?

Anyway....what's wrong with Tom Simpkin? I have no doubt that he will improve and he has so much upside, we would be stupid to look elsewhere. Should be able to put on a kilo or two you'd think. Same height as both David Dench and Matty Scarlett. This was his breakout year. Imo, he'll be able to do the job very well in 2013 and beyond.

Have to agree with this. I think we just need to get the best players available, no matter what their possie.

Simpkin is a gun. Not his fault we missed out. IMHO we need more polished midfielders.

[saintsRrising]

We need someone to play on the bigger forwards..Hawkins, Cloke, Buddy..

Simpkin has for mine taken over Blake's third tall spot in the backline. He may be capable of playing FB in several years, but in 2013 I cannot see him holding such players at present..

Also do not forget that opposition often have 2 big forwards..or more. Look at WCE, or the Hawks with Buddy, Roughhead with Hale.

Scarlett ...and for that matter Dench had great attacking flair and drive and so comparing him with then is not reallya alid comparison.. I have not seen this at all from Simpkin as yer. He may develop it.

[bigcarl]

Simpkin is a future gun defender, but at 191cm may struggle on the monster forwards. In time he may be good enough to overcome the deficit.

Zac always had his detractors, but he is 195cm and quick which is a significant advantage against big key forwards.

I think the No.1 recruiting priority is for a key defender. Some ruck depth would be handy as well, plus you can never have too many good mids.

For key forwards apart from Riewoldt, Wilkes will probably get first crack at ff next season. He seems to have the knack of kicking goals so we could do worse than persevere. There's also Siposs who may be able to play that role. And Goddard if he's still around.

All in all we're not as badly placed as all that and with a bit of luck, composure and kinder umpiring, would be playing finals

[Scollop]

Zac always had his detractors, but he is 195cm and quick which is a significant advantage against big key forwards.

Zac wasn't that good one-on-one. Without the brilliance of Chips and the support of Gilbo and Blake there's no way Zac would be talked about as a good defender.

My biggest beef with Zac was that he didn't contribute enough when the ball needed to come out of our defensive 50. He didn't make good decisions in traffic and he put his teammates under pressure, where as when the foot was on the other shoe they nearly always helped make him look good.

Anyhow....McPharlin has done a hammy...lets see how fluffer goes next week against TomoHawk

[whiskers3614]

Not sure if I want Lyon & Dawson smashed next week or
say lose a prelim by a point after the siren!

[skeptic]

Not sure if I want Lyon & Dawson smashed next week or
say lose a prelim by a point after the siren!

I'd be happy with a 10goal flogging with Hawkins kicking 8