The Ross Lyon Record

[Toy Saint]

Thanks Scallop, an excellent assesment of the past 10 years.

[perfectionist]

...Out of interest, what does GT's record look like if you take out the first 30 or so games... Must be closer to 60%

Removing 2001 and 2002, it is 60.46%

Grant had a better list but more injuries. Ross had a worse list but a tougher game plan. There is no point trying to prove which one was better. We all know that, with the slightest bit of luck, either one could have delivered one or possibly two flags in their tenure. In the end, it was none, and the passion on the Board in the last 24 hours is more a reflection of that than anything else. Opportunities lost and an uncertain future. But, we can only move on.

[duckduckduckgoose]

decent summation scallop.

It sounds a little strange to say it after his actions before leaving... but i genuinely think RL has been great for the culture of the Saints.

Brought a ruthless, sterile, professional win at all costs mentality which we needed a good dose of.
A modern coach.


It's up to the club now to not throw that experience in the bin... but find a balance between the GT old school passion and the RL professional approaches.

[desertsaint]

sorry, i don't think it's very professional to lie & deceive, and just look out for number one!
ross has burnt a few bridges, it'll come back to haunt him.
it's a bit like a german saying - but hitler did get our economy going again.

[Winmarvellous]

I'm not happy with the way he left, but facts are facts. He is a good coach, and Freo may well suprise many next year. They WILL play finals, quote me on that. Let's move on and get the next best available. For a real smoky, get Billy Duckworth. Coaches down at North Beach here in Perth and has won 8 of the past 11 A Grade premierships, is a Premiership player and Norm Smith Medallist, and as I know him I'll get access to the inner sanctum

[dcstkfc]

Outstanding coach, outstanding record.

The facts speak for themselves.


Our best since Jeans.

shite bloke

[Winmarvellous]

most good coaches are. You don't get into the gig to make friends. Ego and ruthlessness are prerequisites these days.

[Moorabbin Man]

Perfectionist; Legendary et en

It's difficult to sack a guy with Lyons record, and maybe it was difficult for the board to demand change from him when the team came so close with him at the helm. He's a stubborn prick and and he thinks he is the messiah...that is bs and Freo will find out soon enough...

Allan Jeans was a legend and a great teacher. Ross Lyon doesn't come within a dag covered pube length whisker of Jeansies skills in motivating and lifting his players to great heights. Our boys should be credited for their hard work and efforts over the last five years in enduring this prick's management style and coaching. All the background and foundations for the team that lying Lyon inherited was carefully constructed by those that came before him.

I'm going repaet 'meher barber's post for all to have another read; WARNING: ESSAY-LENGTH POST. NO ONE IS COMPELLED TO READ IT IF THEY DON'T WANT TO.

I never worshipped Lyon like some on here. I initially hated his style of coaching, his high-pitched, convoluted way of talking and his tendency to blame everyone other than himself when things went wrong. I wanted him to go away.

Then, as 2008 passed into 2009 and 2010 I was, like everyone else, highly impressed.

He did well, but I think many posters on here spiralled into a wish-fulfillment fanstasy in which Lyon "bled" for the club; wasn't a horrible mercenary like GT (who got the club to increase his salary and then took it to court), "In Lyon We Trust" and all that bulldust.

Lyon came as a gun for hire and left as a gun for hire. Personally, I don't really care what the coach, players and even the administrators think or feel about the club as long as they are good at what they do and give the greatest effort that they possibly can. Lyon brought those qualities to the club in spades.


* * * * * * * *


I believe that we have now reached the end of an era which began in 2000-01 when the Butterss-Thomas-Waldron regime came into power. The records of all three men are somewhat tainted in hindsight, but I still believe that collectively they were the best thing that ever happened to our club. They developed a long-term plan to make us into one of the top clubs and keep us up there. And - after a troubled start with the hiring and sacking of Blight and the strange circumstances under which GT was appointed - we saw that strategy begin to bear fruit from the 2004 streak onwards.

We were unlucky in 2004: the crowd invasion for Frasers' 100th goal, a few bounces of the ball late in the game, prevented us from making the GF. (These things happen: in the 2009 PF, our luck went the other way: a rather dodgy free kick to Riewoldt off the ball, a missed gettable shot on goal by Gia, and some enormous courage from Raph Clarke got us over the line. Then, a few similar bits of bad luck and missed opportunities robbed us of a GF win.)

In 2005, injuries - particularly those sustained by key players during the "whispers in the sky" game at Freo - killed us after a heroic effort in the QF and the first 3/4 of the PF. It appears that many on the Board interpreted the loss to the Swans differently and decided that we needed to change from our more attacking game plan to the more "scientific" defensive style developed by Eade and then Roos at the Swans.

At the end of another indifferent season with still more injury problems, they had their chance to strike and strike they did. Butterss and GT had fallen out and so our President did nothing to stop it from happening. Archie Fraser, who seems to have been a bit of a troublemaker, guided the knife to GT's back and then, a year later, into the back of Butterss as well.

In Lyon, the Board got just the coach they were looking for: a scientist with a strong emphasis on defence. A couple of seasons were perhaps wasted while Lyon and the team got used to each other (we can obviously never know for sure how we would have gone if we'd stuck with GT) and then, bang, we were travelling better than ever: albeit perhaps in an overall slightly weaker comp than in 2004-06 (but then, our team was also probably slightly weaker: no Gehrig, Hamilll or Harvey; albeit BJ, Joey, Fisher and Lenny reached the peak form of their careers in 2009-10, as did Milne to some extent, and other lesser players such as Mini in 2009 and Gwilt in 2010. And Schneider and Gardi strengthened us in important areas.)

The injury situation got better: perhaps Misson helped a bit (although, like GT, I don't really believe conditioners make that much difference to the overall injury toll). However, I think the big factors were Lenny and then BJ coming back from their serious injuries. And we stopped playing guys like X, Hamill and Gehrig and - for a while - Ball and Kosi, who were never even close to fully fit. GT, whose heart clearly rules his head, too often made the mistake of letting guy swho weren't right run onto the park for big games. Lyon rarely if ever did that.


* * * * * * * *


In my view, Lyon achieved as much in 2009-10 in terms of quality of output as any coach could ever hope to achieve. Tudor and SOS were obviously also important factors: we can never be sure quite how important. But Lyon always came across as the guy in control. He's tough and shrewd and determined.

Like GT before him, Lyon had a plan and he largely stuck to it. It was a vastly different plan: some would say better than GT's. Certainly, Lyon's plan was totally in tune with what the then Board was trying to achieve when it sacked GT: ie, moving to a more scientific, defensive approach a la the Swans which they believed at the time to be best practice and therefore most likely to get us a flag. And, after all, we had only won one of the buggers in over a century, so this was obviously a more important goal for us than for many other clubs.

However, I personally remain somewhat disappointed that the club moved away from the 2000-01 vision of striving to become one of the top sides and stay there. 2004 was the first time I ever saw the club metaphorically walking with a swagger and looking the rest of the football world straight in the eye: even in the late 60s/early 70s we presented more as an underdog club that had had some success. But, in the mid-2000s, we took on the AFL establishment and got up their collective noses. We ran out on the field and utterly crushed some of the glamour clubs like the Blues, Pies and Hawks: ground them into the dirt.

We moved away from that vision in 2006 for a range of reasons: some good (wanting desperately to win a flag, GT really not being up to it technically as a coach, etc.) and some bad (the Butterss-GT feud, Archie Fraser's machinations, the AFL and football media's collective attitude towards GT).

The result was that we almost got there: as close as you can possibly get without making it. In the decade since GT took over at the end of 2001, 7 clubs have played in GFs and 6 have won one or more. We are the sole exception, and we managed to draw one. I'll never regret that and I'll always be highly complimentary to Lyon for the huge role in getting us almost all the way there. And to Butterss-Waldron-GT-Bevo and others for assembling the list and instilling the faith: it wasn't simply the case that we had enough high draft picks to inevitably get to the top: the Blues, Tigers, Freo and the Demons have had a lot of high draft picks and haven't come close yet.

* * * * * * * *

But Lyon (aided by Drain and Peake, Nettlefold and others) now leaves a legacy of too many recycled "role players", wasted draft picks, damaged morale, and style of football which is as boring as batshit to watch.


It's time for the club to try to turn the clock back to 2003-04 and, failing that, right back to 2001-02 and a total rebuild. We need to go back to the goal of long-term success as a club. Not so much to win a GF next year or the year after (although that would be great), but to strive long-term to be seen as one of the AFL's glamour clubs: the boys from the beachside who play a dynamic, attractive and winning style of football. Retain the tough defence that Lyon taught us, but bring back some of the desire to crush our opponents that GT brought to the club. Go back to recruiting the best available talent, not just players to fill "roles".

The club needs to be daring, confident and aggressive: a bit lairy, a bit Frankston, a bit Shane Warne (indeed, I'd consider trying to get Warne involved in some way).

I don't know who the right coach for that mix would be. Not Malthouse: too old now, IMO. Scott Burns or Leigh Tudor might be all right. It's a pity the Scott brothers aren't triplets. The club needs to be patient and to make sure they find the right guy. But they shouldn't try to be too safe. And certainly nobody who has had anything to do with the Swans!!

Go Saints! Onwards and upwards!!

Great stuff Scollop and uplifting, suggest that you email it to the Board. The selection of the next coach is obviously critical, don't entirely agree with you re: Malthouse, I think we need an experienced one. Anything else is a potential risk.

[bigcarl]

Only four coaches have coached St Kilda in more than 100 games. They are:

Allan Jeans: 332 games, 58.28% winning ratio, 3 GFs and 1 Premiership
Grant Thomas: 124 games, 51.63% winning ratio, no GFs
Ross Lyon: 121 games, 64.46% winning ratio, 3GFs, no flags
Stan Alves: 115 games, 48.46% winning ration, 1 GF, no flag.

GT's record is pretty good ... very good, in fact, considering he spent a couple of seasons bottoming out to get us draft picks while he was building the core of this list.

We could do worse ...

[bigcarl]

Out of interest, what does GT's record look like if you take out the first 30 or so games when we were tanking? Must be closer to 60%

Good point. Very underrated as a coach was GT

[bigcarl]

...Out of interest, what does GT's record look like if you take out the first 30 or so games... Must be closer to 60%

Removing 2001 and 2002, it is 60.46%

Grant had a better list but more injuries.

What about if you remove 2003 as well? The team didn't really reach critical mass until 2004.

We could do worse

[SainterK]

The Ross Lyon Record?

The Eagles 'Can't hide your Lyon eyes'

The Evening Birds 'The Lyon sleeps tonight'

Eurythmics "Would I Lie To You"

Anything else?

[Dr Spaceman]

The Eagles 'Can't hide your Lyon eyes'

The trouble is, he did!

[Scollop]

Thanks Scallop, an excellent assesment of the past 10 years.

To Toy Saint and duckduckgoose and to all;

The author was maher baba not me.

I thought it was one of the best posts I've read here on SS ff and it deserved to be repeated. Thanks again maher for your thoughts and skills in highlighting the kingmakers and helping us deal with the current situation.

Its an anxious time for our club and the uncertainty will continue until we get a new coach. I'm confident that the team will perform again in 2012 and if we get a favourable fixture, anything can happen. Damien barret on MMM and the Friday rub team seem to think that the Freo ceo gave Demetriou a bit of a clip. Demetriou made comments about the way it was handled and Demetriou might have even questioned Ross Lyon's loyalty to St Kilda.

The Freo ceo said he should basically keep his opinion to himself if he doesn't really know how they came to their decision. And that the AFL ceo shouldn't question their club and said that it was a lawful agreement in the interests of Freo footy club. Damien Barrett reckons that people don't usually talk that way to Demetriou and their could be recriminations in the way the fixture is drawn up...In other words, Demetriou doesn't take too kindly to ceo's being dismissive towards him...suck s*** Freo

[AdelaideSainter]

I thought this thread was about Ross releasing a cover version of Denis Leary's old hit "I'm An Asshole"

[perfectionist]

...Out of interest, what does GT's record look like if you take out the first 30 or so games... Must be closer to 60%

Removing 2001 and 2002, it is 60.46%

Grant had a better list but more injuries.

What about if you remove 2003 as well? The team didn't really reach critical mass until 2004.

Yep and we could remove all the losses and he would have a 100% winning rate.

[bigcarl]

...Out of interest, what does GT's record look like if you take out the first 30 or so games... Must be closer to 60%

Removing 2001 and 2002, it is 60.46%

Grant had a better list but more injuries.

What about if you remove 2003 as well? The team didn't really reach critical mass until 2004.

Yep and we could remove all the losses and he would have a 100% winning rate.

So just out of interest?

From memory he moved Gehrig from FB to FF in about Round 16, 2003, and after that the team took off with a lot of the young guys starting to show a bit.

[Moods]

...Out of interest, what does GT's record look like if you take out the first 30 or so games... Must be closer to 60%

Removing 2001 and 2002, it is 60.46%

Grant had a better list but more injuries.

What about if you remove 2003 as well? The team didn't really reach critical mass until 2004.

We could do worse

Are you taking the piss Big Carl? Or do you genuinely want GT back? Tell me your joking.

[bigcarl]

...Out of interest, what does GT's record look like if you take out the first 30 or so games... Must be closer to 60%

Removing 2001 and 2002, it is 60.46%

Grant had a better list but more injuries.

What about if you remove 2003 as well? The team didn't really reach critical mass until 2004.

We could do worse

Are you taking the piss Big Carl? Or do you genuinely want GT back? Tell me your joking.

Had a good record. Helped assemble a fine list. Loves the club. The boys played for him. Not averse to blooding kids and taking a few risks (unlike others I could name).

What's not to like?

What's more, there's others who agree. It's not going to happen, though, so stop jumping at shadows.

[Enrico_Misso]

What if you remove all GT's losses.
How does he look then?

[Enrico_Misso]

Actualy we should appoint Allan Davis.
His record was 100%

[saintly]

Lyon is a very very good coach one that we lost, i just hope we get someone who can coach like he did.

and let us not forget that it took him over 18 months to become a good coach with us!!! you gusy remember how we were s*** in that first year, missed the finals etc.

if we go with an untried coach just remember the above.

[lennyeverywhere]

sorry, i don't think it's very professional to lie & deceive, and just look out for number one!
ross has burnt a few bridges, it'll come back to haunt him.
it's a bit like a german saying - but hitler did get our economy going again.

Not very Professional for our Management to take 6 months to sign him up!

what happened from April til now. Too many lunches.

TAKE A LONG HARD LOOK AT OURSELVES!

Thanks Ross for all your hard work