Hawks game V Carlton game planning

[Saint2]

I thought the second half just exposed the slowness of our midfield, especially on the second effort and chasing.

[Saintmatt]

I thought the second half just exposed the slowness of our midfield, especially on the second effort and chasing.

I get what you're saying however, their midfield on Sunday was just as slow as ours. Cripps, Hewitt, Docherty are pretty much the same as Crouch, Steele, Owens.

You always look slower chasing ar$e

[Teflon]

FFS ppl on here make this so complicated. Nothing at all changed at half time in the coaches box. A shite missed free kick cost us momentum going into half time with a 5 goal lead. Carlton were dead and buried at that point.

During that first half - the only coaching move that I could discernibly notice was Jack Steele hard marking Cripps (and largely sacrificing his game in the process). He did a good job of that. That's it. We were not pushing an extra up to the stoppages from half back / half forward; the wings (Hill / Wood) were maintaining their width and playing box to box. That's it. At that stage, Crouch had bought his own Sherrin and had 22 disposals.

After half time? Same from the coaches box. The difference? The main thing was that they stopped fumbling everything; Cripps slowly got on top as did Hewitt/ Docherty - they won stoppages and that let the likes of Acres to get off the chain and run rampant.

I like the idea of Lyon and think he'll be ok for us in time. But he can't really polish this turd of a list. He simply cannot help it if Steele and Crouch had zero touches in the last quarter. That's on those Senior players. They weren't on the bench; they attended every centre bounce - ample opportunity to impact the result.

I really just think that our group of players got beaten by a more talented group of players. Voss didn't do anything either FWIW. Cripps > Steele; DeKoning as 2nd ruck > Hammer; Marshall = Pittonet.

My abiding thought walking out of the ground was that it was mainly our kids that had done the damage for us this year and collectively, that was probably their quietest game. NAS, Owens, Windy, Byrnes, Phillipou, Cammo , Sharman were all outpointed by their direct opponents.

The indictment is that the Senior players should have stood up and simply didn't. You can't leave it to the kids all the time and that's not necessarily the coach's direct fault

That is a cracking post - absolutely how I walked out of the game too
Too much left to kids again
Senior leaders wilting (again) under heat
Only morons pushing an anti-coaching agenda would argue otherwise…they do exist tho
Lyon has a lot of work in front of him
Compromised drafts coming up , bugger all mids this draft and a midfield that could be worse next year !
He’ll need every bit of 4 years before Owens and Co are truly the dominant core group

[nostalgicsaint]

I think we could make very quick strides with a good off-season.


Imagine adding.

2 x Free Agent midfielder (Parish and M Crouch)
1 x uncontracted midfielder (Dow)
1 x key defender (Redmond)
3 x draft picks

And possibly losing

Gresham
Bytel
Highmore
McKenzie
Campbell
Connolly
Adams

Gives a best 22 of the below.


Coffield Wilkie. Howard
Windy. Redman. Sinclair
Milera. Parish. Wood
Hill. Hammer Owens
Higgins. King. Butler

Marshall
Steele
Crouch

Clark, Dow/M Crouch, Byrnes, Billings

Sub: Phillipou

Others: Webster, Membrey, Heath, Battle, Stocker, Sharman, Stocker, Hotton, Jones, Ross, Dow/M Crouch, Keeler

[amusingname]

I think we could make very quick strides with a good off-season.


Imagine adding.

2 x Free Agent midfielder (Parish and M Crouch)
1 x uncontracted midfielder (Dow)
1 x key defender (Redmond)
3 x draft picks

And possibly losing

Gresham
Bytel
Highmore
McKenzie
Campbell
Connolly
Adams

Gives a best 22 of the below.


Coffield Wilkie. Howard
Windy. Redman. Sinclair
Milera. Parish. Wood
Hill. Hammer Owens
Higgins. King. Butler

Marshall
Steele
Crouch

Clark, Dow/M Crouch, Byrnes, Billings

Sub: Phillipou

Others: Webster, Membrey, Heath, Battle, Stocker, Sharman, Stocker, Hotton, Jones, Ross, Dow/M Crouch, Keeler

Mason Redman has already re-signed with the bombers and would be one of the last people they would consider trading.

Don't think Parish would be coming either but who knows, I think next year Owens is a 70% mid, 30% forward, Phillipou is in Owens role this year and we potentially bring in Dow and Liam Henry for midfield cover and some more run. I think the last month has shown we need ball winners above all else.

[Teflon]

Tarryn Thomas also in frame..,
I can smell a Clarke deal coming ..

[nostalgicsaint]

I think we could make very quick strides with a good off-season.


Imagine adding.

2 x Free Agent midfielder (Parish and M Crouch)
1 x uncontracted midfielder (Dow)
1 x key defender (Redmond)
3 x draft picks

And possibly losing

Gresham
Bytel
Highmore
McKenzie
Campbell
Connolly
Adams

Gives a best 22 of the below.


Coffield Wilkie. Howard
Windy. Redman. Sinclair
Milera. Parish. Wood
Hill. Hammer Owens
Higgins. King. Butler

Marshall
Steele
Crouch

Clark, Dow/M Crouch, Byrnes, Billings

Sub: Phillipou

Others: Webster, Membrey, Heath, Battle, Stocker, Sharman, Stocker, Hotton, Jones, Ross, Dow/M Crouch, Keeler

Mason Redman has already re-signed with the bombers and would be one of the last people they would consider trading.

Don't think Parish would be coming either but who knows, I think next year Owens is a 70% mid, 30% forward, Phillipou is in Owens role this year and we potentially bring in Dow and Liam Henry for midfield cover and some more run. I think the last month has shown we need ball winners above all else.

The actual specific named players is less important than the concept of how quickly you can improve a list over an off-season.

3 or 4 players +.draft picks can make a huge difference.

[Scollop]

FFS ppl on here make this so complicated. Nothing at all changed at half time in the coaches box. A shite missed free kick cost us momentum going into half time with a 5 goal lead. Carlton were dead and buried at that point.

During that first half - the only coaching move that I could discernibly notice was Jack Steele hard marking Cripps (and largely sacrificing his game in the process). He did a good job of that. That's it. We were not pushing an extra up to the stoppages from half back / half forward; the wings (Hill / Wood) were maintaining their width and playing box to box. That's it. At that stage, Crouch had bought his own Sherrin and had 22 disposals.

After half time? Same from the coaches box. The difference? The main thing was that they stopped fumbling everything; Cripps slowly got on top as did Hewitt/ Docherty - they won stoppages and that let the likes of Acres to get off the chain and run rampant.

I like the idea of Lyon and think he'll be ok for us in time. But he can't really polish this turd of a list. He simply cannot help it if Steele and Crouch had zero touches in the last quarter. That's on those Senior players. They weren't on the bench; they attended every centre bounce - ample opportunity to impact the result.

I really just think that our group of players got beaten by a more talented group of players. Voss didn't do anything either FWIW. Cripps > Steele; DeKoning as 2nd ruck > Hammer; Marshall = Pittonet.

My abiding thought walking out of the ground was that it was mainly our kids that had done the damage for us this year and collectively, that was probably their quietest game. NAS, Owens, Windy, Byrnes, Phillipou, Cammo , Sharman were all outpointed by their direct opponents.

The indictment is that the Senior players should have stood up and simply didn't. You can't leave it to the kids all the time and that's not necessarily the coach's direct fault

Really good post. I agree with nearly everything and I should have replied to you here but I added my thoughts to another thread (the 'Should Lyon get a contract extension' or whatever that thread is called)

Just a question for you regarding the section I highlighted.

If Steele and Crouch 'attended every centre bounce' as you say, then isn't that on the coach to share the workload?

If you had data on how many total minutes Steele and Crouch spent on the ground compared to previous matches and if you had precise details on the average amount of time they usually spend on the ground in the first 3 quarters of a game...do you think that might better explain whether Lyon 'simply cannot help it' if they have no touches in the last?

[Teflon]

FFS ppl on here make this so complicated. Nothing at all changed at half time in the coaches box. A shite missed free kick cost us momentum going into half time with a 5 goal lead. Carlton were dead and buried at that point.

During that first half - the only coaching move that I could discernibly notice was Jack Steele hard marking Cripps (and largely sacrificing his game in the process). He did a good job of that. That's it. We were not pushing an extra up to the stoppages from half back / half forward; the wings (Hill / Wood) were maintaining their width and playing box to box. That's it. At that stage, Crouch had bought his own Sherrin and had 22 disposals.

After half time? Same from the coaches box. The difference? The main thing was that they stopped fumbling everything; Cripps slowly got on top as did Hewitt/ Docherty - they won stoppages and that let the likes of Acres to get off the chain and run rampant.

I like the idea of Lyon and think he'll be ok for us in time. But he can't really polish this turd of a list. He simply cannot help it if Steele and Crouch had zero touches in the last quarter. That's on those Senior players. They weren't on the bench; they attended every centre bounce - ample opportunity to impact the result.

I really just think that our group of players got beaten by a more talented group of players. Voss didn't do anything either FWIW. Cripps > Steele; DeKoning as 2nd ruck > Hammer; Marshall = Pittonet.

My abiding thought walking out of the ground was that it was mainly our kids that had done the damage for us this year and collectively, that was probably their quietest game. NAS, Owens, Windy, Byrnes, Phillipou, Cammo , Sharman were all outpointed by their direct opponents.

The indictment is that the Senior players should have stood up and simply didn't. You can't leave it to the kids all the time and that's not necessarily the coach's direct fault

Really good post. I agree with nearly everything and I should have replied to you here but I added my thoughts to another thread (the 'Should Lyon get a contract extension' or whatever that thread is called)

Just a question for you regarding the section I highlighted.

If Steele and Crouch 'attended every centre bounce' as you say, then isn't that on the coach to share the workload?

If you had data on how many total minutes Steele and Crouch spent on the ground compared to previous matches and if you had precise details on the average amount of time they usually spend on the ground in the first 3 quarters of a game...do you think that might better explain whether Lyon 'simply cannot help it' if they have no touches in the last?

Oh dear ….
Crouch had his own footy at half time
Now it’s Lyons fault cause he ran out of puff in the last
This AFTER Lyon said they’d tried several through the midfield to get a spark but got zip
I mean **** me are you trolling this board????? You can’t be that simple…

[Scollop]

There's a difference between believing everything Lyon says and actually watching the game for yourself

I suggest you try doing the latter sometimes

[Teflon]

There's a difference between believing everything Lyon says and actually watching the game for yourself

I suggest you try doing the latter sometimes

Oh so now he’s lying to you?
FMD you’ve got a pathological dislike for the guy we get
But keep it to yourself
He’s coach next 3.5 years
Suck it up

[takeaway]

There's a difference between believing everything Lyon says and actually watching the game for yourself

I suggest you try doing the latter sometimes

Based on some of your posts, assuming you watch games live, do you watch them with full concentration, or with one eye on the player heat map expansion?

[The G Train Legacy]

Tarryn Thomas also in frame..,
I can smell a Clarke deal coming ..

Tarryn Thomas is a gun. Are his legal troubles sorted? And would Clarkson let him go?

[B.M]

Tarryn Thomas = Andrew Lovett

[Teflon]

Tarryn Thomas = Andrew Lovett

Yep super call
I never liked the look of that Dusty Martin guy either…ratbag so glad we passed
Thank **** a our Saints must be “nice choirboys” as proven last qtr in Sunday…
“Come on through Mr Cripps…let us help you carry that next clearance out of here…”
FMD

[B.M]

Do you know his history

Don’t want choir boys

But do want good characters

What was wrong with Dusty? Pretty professional footballer from what I know? Is it his tatts? What are you basing your opinion on?

[Saint2]

Players and coaches all need to take a share of responsibility for losses. There is something not right when senior experienced players don't get hands on ball, especially a captain- even if you're not having the best game, it is more than unusual to barely get involved. I don't know if some of these guys are seeing eye to eye with Lyon, but Steele hasn't played with his usual relentless style this season- even in the pre season. Lyon is getting paid a huge whack of money, and at that level you wear big responsibility.

[Scollop]

Players and coaches all need to take a share of responsibility for losses.

C’mon mate. Stop being a coach hater

[Ghost Like]

I am amazed that if you lead at half time you should be guaranteed the win. I guess that means if we are ever behind at half time, we should just go home.

In terms of Hawthorn v Carlton and their respective form lines, I think we were pretty close in terms of result. We jump out of the blocks, got reigned back in but Crouch & Steele, our leaders, had zero influence in the last quarter. Is that the difference?

[Teflon]

Players and coaches all need to take a share of responsibility for losses. There is something not right when senior experienced players don't get hands on ball, especially a captain- even if you're not having the best game, it is more than unusual to barely get involved. I don't know if some of these guys are seeing eye to eye with Lyon, but Steele hasn't played with his usual relentless style this season- even in the pre season. Lyon is getting paid a huge whack of money, and at that level you wear big responsibility.

So on that theory Steele AND Crouch threw the toys out of the cot in last qtr cause Ross upset them?
I’m sorry
Steele was a non event (good the week before …does Lyon get the credit for his good game against Hawks ??)
Crouch was tagged by Hewett just had no help
I’m all for accountability…but let’s get it right

[Teflon]

Just on Twitter …seems others might have got Gawk game plan I g wrong….you can’t say RTB didn’t learn…

“Craig McRae admitted he got things wrong tactically against Hawthorn, in particular in his planning for James Sicily, who was influential across halfback.

The @CollingwoodFC coach even got some blunt feedback when he returned home!”