Scapegoats v Overrated v Whipping Boys

[Yorkeys]

And the 4 coaches. Paralysis of too many cooks. Can't stop a 5 goal run in 20 minutes of footy. Keep picking team/ mids by rote when midfield clearly failing. Mulligans!
Correlate losses with midfield starters and consider significant change. Bytel, Windhager are the future. Owens a mid. Billings a forward. Drop those having shockers or game losing clangers. Same guys that sunk Ratts will sink you guys if you stay stoically passive. They don't care about your jobs so wake up. And try Sincs as a starting mid till he absolutely proves he isn't. Cordy in too. Doesn't drop his head, doesn't lose composure.

[Saints58]

Is there a difference or do certain players get given more latitude than they genuinely deserve? Have some players credits run out? Injuries can only paper over so many cracks.

Byrnes - I tried so hard not to see his limitations but he has too many. Hard to imagine we do not have better.

Webster / Paton / Stocker - can we roll them into the one player? Finding it hard to say one deserves a spot more than the other but I know there's not 3 spots.

Battle - apparently a great bloke, just not sure he's a great footballer. The reasons he's now playing back and not forward are beginning to surface down back.

Howard - the poster boy for someone who believes they have better skills when they actually possess. Gets caught out of position, slow to find an option, let alone pick one.

Gresham - is playing himself out of a fat contract & us out of a half decent pick.

Ross - a two time B&F needs to stand up in games like this afternoon. I suspect he's out of form or confused by what the coach wants. He needs to lift dramatically or just pass the baton.

Steele - whatever is wrong with him needs to be fixed & quickly! If he is injured, rest. If he is now too light, he needs to hit Maccas. We cannot afford him playing like this & have (an out of form) Ross & Crouch in the same side.

Higgins - a howler at the end and (on its own, in isolation) cost the game but let's face it, he was building to that moment. A bit like the small defenders, I wish we could roll Higgins, Butler & Gresham into one.

The usually Whipping Boys, a.k.a. >>>

Butler - best of the small forwards, actually understands team work & selflessness.

Paton - not disgraced today but suspect will cop a caning.

Sharman - under rated & unappreciated. Will suffer from the return of Owens & Membrey but worth persisting with.

Byrnes - see above. I wish I could love him more but way too limited for such an important position that requires a skillset above his pay grade.

I really don't know how we still play Battle he is a not bad intercept mark but that's it he is not smart gets caught out to often and turns over the ball a lot for goals.
This happens each week and I don't know if the coaches notice or don't worry about it.
Should we trade Battle end of year he only wanted to sign a 2 year deal anyway when offered 3 so lets get rid of him while we can get something for him.
Now we have Cordy who is a KPD and has played over 100 games in that role and where he should be playing not up forward.
It would make us a better side with Battle out and cordy in defence.
Becuase of Battles shortcomings Dougal has to help out and puts him under more pressure , makes it hard for the rest of the backs to cover.

[Impatient Sainter]

Apart from a couple of exceptions the entire team were not mentally switched on yesterday. It started with all our leaders and the poor attitude filtered down throughout the side. 90% of the game is played above the shoulders and thats where it was lost yesterday. Its hard not to do but lets not judge players abilities on a patch of poor form, when the entire club (players & coaches) had a poor day.

[B.M]

Some players horribly out of form atm

[nobhead]

Some players horribly out of form atm

Your right but you can still give effort, apply pressure,compete,lay takles like we were doing in the first 5 weeks.

[B.M]

I’m sure they are trying

No player, at any level in any game doesn’t give effort

Form is related to confidence

There are a thousand decisions you make in a game of footy - in form and confident you generally make a lot of good decisions

When there is a shadow of doubt - you are off the pace

[Sanctorum]

We lost this game at the selection table, imhfo that is. Higgins' dropped mark didn't help either.

Higgins appeared to me to have dropped the mark due to his finger injury sustained earlier in the last quarter - and why the hell he decided to stay on
the ground when he dislocated his finger while marking the ball and subsequently kicked the ball out of bounds instead of through the big sticks, was an absolute coach killer. What was he thinking??? It obviously was painful, he was grimacing, had ample reason to go off and let someone else take the kick on goal, bloody selfish and very poor judgment!!

That said, I did see a notice on the screen during the game that Higgins and Butler are rated #2 & 3 after Charlie Cameron as this season's best small forwards....maybe Higgins saw it too and decided to add to his tally.

[B.M]

Higgins is goal hungry

There was 3 examples of selfishness from forwards

In a team first environment- that doesn’t happen

All three small forwards are selfish

[Life Long Saint]

Can't stop a 5 goal run in 20 minutes of footy.

That was the one thing that I expected to not happen this season.
Every coach since Lyon was unable to prevent a run of goals from the opposition.
We needed to slow the game and control the ball when we had it in the last quarter. We failed miserably and made a very poor team look like a genuine finals threat!

100% our worst effort all season.
I know we were smashed by the Crows, but they're a very good team at home.

[Ghost Like]

Higgins is goal hungry

There was 3 examples of selfishness from forwards

In a team first environment- that doesn’t happen

All three small forwards are selfish

Name me a small forward that isn't goal hungry, selfish. Name me one of our three that thinks about the other two and the team...that player is Butler. Higgins & Gresham are sadly about themselves first, what happens next is simply an after thought.

[Ghost Like]

Some players horribly out of form atm

& they deserve to be dropped. Pretty easy to name, they are our senior players, however I suspect that others will get shafted...we are St Kilda afterall.

How long do we put up with mediocre performances & more importantly, performers??? There's a reason why some of our "experienced" players were not chased when out of contract.

[Scollop]

Some players horribly out of form atm

& they deserve to be dropped. Pretty easy to name, they are our senior players, however I suspect that others will get shafted...we are St Kilda afterall.

How long do we put up with mediocre performances & more importantly, performers??? There's a reason why some of our "experienced" players were not chased when out of contract.

+1

Well said

[Scollop]

Higgins is goal hungry

There was 3 examples of selfishness from forwards

In a team first environment- that doesn’t happen

All three small forwards are selfish

Name me a small forward that isn't goal hungry, selfish. Name me one of our three that thinks about the other two and the team...that player is Butler. Higgins & Gresham are sadly about themselves first, what happens next is simply an after thought.

When Mitch Lewis kicked his goal it put the Hawks in front and with just 1 min 24 seconds left on the clock, the next centre bounce was going to determine the outcome and certainly the next goal

Unfortunately, through lack of cohesion, lack of talking, and lack of thinking, our midfield did not take advantage once Marshall won the tap out.

Steele made some space and put on a block for Gresham who won the ground ball and Gresh turned on his right and just dump kicked it to no one

It wasn’t a kick towards a particular target or anyone but Centre Half Forward for the Saints. And wouldn’t you know it…The guy who read the play the best was once again James Cicily. Gresh had one good option. Gresh had NWM who was free but unfortunately Jade couldn’t see him because Gresh was facing the wing when he won the ground ball

Nas was basically behind him and about 1-2 metres free from any Hawthorn player.

Gresh needed to run and get support if he was to find a player free, but most of the time our mids (as well as most mids in the competition) just want the clearance stat and the kick added to their disposals. They don’t care where it goes. I know that’s harsh and I know they don’t have much time with opponents on their tail, but occasionally it’d be nice if we could look a little cleaner with our clearances.

[1971]

Some players horribly out of form atm

& they deserve to be dropped. Pretty easy to name, they are our senior players, however I suspect that others will get shafted...we are St Kilda afterall.

How long do we put up with mediocre performances & more importantly, performers??? There's a reason why some of our "experienced" players were not chased when out of contract.

+2. So well said.

[groupie1]

Is there a difference or do certain players get given more latitude than they genuinely deserve? Have some players credits run out? Injuries can only paper over so many cracks.

Byrnes - I tried so hard not to see his limitations but he has too many. Hard to imagine we do not have better.

Webster / Paton / Stocker - can we roll them into the one player? Finding it hard to say one deserves a spot more than the other but I know there's not 3 spots.

Battle - apparently a great bloke, just not sure he's a great footballer. The reasons he's now playing back and not forward are beginning to surface down back.

Howard - the poster boy for someone who believes they have better skills when they actually possess. Gets caught out of position, slow to find an option, let alone pick one.

Gresham - is playing himself out of a fat contract & us out of a half decent pick.

Ross - a two time B&F needs to stand up in games like this afternoon. I suspect he's out of form or confused by what the coach wants. He needs to lift dramatically or just pass the baton.

Steele - whatever is wrong with him needs to be fixed & quickly! If he is injured, rest. If he is now too light, he needs to hit Maccas. We cannot afford him playing like this & have (an out of form) Ross & Crouch in the same side.

Higgins - a howler at the end and (on its own, in isolation) cost the game but let's face it, he was building to that moment. A bit like the small defenders, I wish we could roll Higgins, Butler & Gresham into one.

The usually Whipping Boys, a.k.a. >>>

Butler - best of the small forwards, actually understands team work & selflessness.

Paton - not disgraced today but suspect will cop a caning.

Sharman - under rated & unappreciated. Will suffer from the return of Owens & Membrey but worth persisting with.

Byrnes - see above. I wish I could love him more but way too limited for such an important position that requires a skillset above his pay grade.

I agree with a good chunk of this.

Specifically, I'd like to see us continue this 'year of exploration' in the following ways:

Paton/Webster/Stocker - Pick 1 and bring in Leo Connolly. Paton's kicking is killing us (slow, loopy, and often after 15 seconds of decision-making); I'd go Stocker & Connolly
Howard - bring Van Es in and accept he'll be challenged the first year or two. I would even consider Highmore to replace him. Highmore will play a more aggressive role, but reads the ball really well and actually catches it.
Steele - couldn't agree more. Whatever is wrong, needs to be fixed. (I suspect it is his knee.)
Sharman - absolutely agree. I have no problem with a monster forward line: Sharman King Butler / Membrey Caminiti Higgins and consider Hayes if he gets fit
Byrnes - replace with Windhager as soon as possible
Ross - replaced by Owens
Bytel needs a solid run at it. He gets the ball and has clean hands. We need to at least make clearances messy for the opposition if we can't win them.

I'd continue playing Gresham and Higgins and Battle.

[mad saint guy]

Here's my take on the whipping boys

Small forwards - Not perfect but doing a very good job as a group. Not concerned with their form at all

Ross - Started the year in career best form and now he's in career worst form. Has been a liability for several weeks and needs to be dropped.

Howard - Not perfect but has been pretty good. This year has been lowering the eyes and hitting short/medium kicks which is a huge improvement on his old system of roosting it as far and high as possible

Battle - Solid third tall defender who looks good when the midfield is on top but not great when we're losing the clearances. A good player but not a great one

Paton - Pre leg break I would've said he's a lock to play 250 games.He seems to have lost some athleticism and confidence. I now have no idea what his future holds. Was one of our better players against Hawthorn though with good numbers for intercepts and score involvements

Steele - I don't think he's played a good game since the injury. Looks like dropping weight was a mistake and shouldn't be playing if he is restricted by the injury. Obviously Ross isn't going to come out and say he's playing with a sore shoulder/collarbone which would invite opposition players to target it

Clark - Does more good than bad. Has been a positive overall this season

Membrey - Shouldn't play if he isn't fit. Outside of a brief patch against Carlton he's been crap

Sharman - Has skills and athleticism. We need to find out if he has the mindset and footy IQ. Keep playing him

Windy - Was in our best starting midfield by the end of last season. Play him

Crouch - Fallen away massively with the rest of the team. Puts up okay numbers without impacting. Not as dramatic a drop off as Ross though

[SaintPav]

Higgins is goal hungry

There was 3 examples of selfishness from forwards

In a team first environment- that doesn’t happen

All three small forwards are selfish

You can add Caminiti to that group.

Has the KBs about him.

[older saint]

Is there a difference or do certain players get given more latitude than they genuinely deserve? Have some players credits run out? Injuries can only paper over so many cracks.

Byrnes - I tried so hard not to see his limitations but he has too many. Hard to imagine we do not have better.

Webster / Paton / Stocker - can we roll them into the one player? Finding it hard to say one deserves a spot more than the other but I know there's not 3 spots.

Battle - apparently a great bloke, just not sure he's a great footballer. The reasons he's now playing back and not forward are beginning to surface down back.

Howard - the poster boy for someone who believes they have better skills when they actually possess. Gets caught out of position, slow to find an option, let alone pick one.

Gresham - is playing himself out of a fat contract & us out of a half decent pick.

Ross - a two time B&F needs to stand up in games like this afternoon. I suspect he's out of form or confused by what the coach wants. He needs to lift dramatically or just pass the baton.

Steele - whatever is wrong with him needs to be fixed & quickly! If he is injured, rest. If he is now too light, he needs to hit Maccas. We cannot afford him playing like this & have (an out of form) Ross & Crouch in the same side.

Higgins - a howler at the end and (on its own, in isolation) cost the game but let's face it, he was building to that moment. A bit like the small defenders, I wish we could roll Higgins, Butler & Gresham into one.

The usually Whipping Boys, a.k.a. >>>

Butler - best of the small forwards, actually understands team work & selflessness.

Paton - not disgraced today but suspect will cop a caning.

Sharman - under rated & unappreciated. Will suffer from the return of Owens & Membrey but worth persisting with.

Byrnes - see above. I wish I could love him more but way too limited for such an important position that requires a skillset above his pay grade.

Wow with 10 of our 22 , most of which have played between 8-11 games how are we 7-4?
Even the best teams have players with limitations you can either go with what they can't do of maximise what they are good at. Collingwood - Hill more inconsistent than our small forwards but can be explosive, Cox , doesnt defend well but can mark inside 50.. Just like Byrnes - can run all day and compete but disposal can let him down.
I don't necessarily disagree with some of above but it depends if glass half full or half empty.

[Ghost Like]

Fair call older saint but if we don't challenge our players to improve then we remain where we have been for the last 12 years. Too scared to drop / trade players "in case" they become the champion we dream of.

You mention Collingwood, a club not afraid to cast off players we would not entertain losing, their dodgy salary cap accounting forced their hand in two examples.

Sydney understand their list and have not been afraid to release players, unfortunately for us.

The side we just got embarrassed by have done it, Mitchell & O'Meara.

The only ones we have released, let go, given away were perennial whipping boys, Acres & Long (& Jack Steven)

Collingwood, Sydney & Hawthorn are very much the sum of their parts. A concept we have never really embraced, we lord Brownlows, Colemans and B&Fs.

We need to appreciate the entirety of our list and stop being seduced by individuals or more precisely, the potential of individuals. If their best isn't their new benchmark / standard then we are treading water, again!

[Teflon]

Fair call older saint but if we don't challenge our players to improve then we remain where we have been for the last 12 years. Too scared to drop / trade players "in case" they become the champion we dream of.

You mention Collingwood, a club not afraid to cast off players we would not entertain losing, their dodgy salary cap accounting forced their hand in two examples.

Sydney understand their list and have not been afraid to release players, unfortunately for us.

The side we just got embarrassed by have done it, Mitchell & O'Meara.

The only ones we have released, let go, given away were perennial whipping boys, Acres & Long (& Jack Steven)

Collingwood, Sydney & Hawthorn are very much the sum of their parts. A concept we have never really embraced, we lord Brownlows, Colemans and B&Fs.

We need to appreciate the entirety of our list and stop being seduced by individuals or more precisely, the potential of individuals. If their best isn't their new benchmark / standard then we are treading water, again!

This.
Hawks let Mitchell Omeara Gunston
We are too scared to discuss a Membrey Battle or Gresham
You have to go long term
We’ve never properly rejuvenated our list with quality
The little bit we got via Owens Pou Windy NAS has us dreaming of what could be
We need another 3-4 of these and we are in it

[lefty]

Game was lost in the midfield, as usual. We honestly need to pick a top 10 midfielder.

IMO steel isn't doing enough and needs to be rested. Gresham likewise. Crouch is really up and down which doesn't help.

The hawks midfielders simply got to the ball first, and then dished off to +1 spare every time. I guess that's youth... ?

[Teflon]

Game was lost in the midfield, as usual. We honestly need to pick a top 10 midfielder.

IMO steel isn't doing enough and needs to be rested. Gresham likewise. Crouch is really up and down which doesn't help.

The hawks midfielders simply got to the ball first, and then dished off to +1 spare every time. I guess that's youth... ?

Yeah that’s how I saw it too
Soon as they hit it outside they were gone
We chased tail
I was very disappointed we were second to the footy all day
I’m glad we got a smack in the mouth we deserved it

[B.M]

Hawks midfield is ranked 3 in the AFL for clearance work

They have some serious bodies in there - Nash 197 & 95, Worpal and Newcombe are powerful lads

They smashed us inside - too big

And Day (who is a gun!) exited stoppage with class

Helps when you have a 210cm ruckman who monstered Marshall at CB

[Teflon]

Hawks midfield is ranked 3 in the AFL for clearance work

They have some serious bodies in there - Nash 197 & 95, Worpal and Newcombe are powerful lads

They smashed us inside - too big

And Day (who is a gun!) exited stoppage with class

Helps when you have a 210cm ruckman who monstered Marshall at CB

They played Sam Mitchell copping it at start of year for a few Hawk belting’s….he argued if I keep playing Omeara Mitchell etc then kids like Newcomb and McKenzie don’t play….
Guess who did the damage on weekend???
Forget finals play kids focus on the list if we do it now in 12 months we are a genuine up coming outfit

[B.M]

Newcombe played in the midfield with O Meara and Mitchell last year

McKenzie played outside on the centre square on Sat - wasn’t that impressive

Hawthorn have won 3 games