Long on playing forward

[shanegrambeau]

It’s all relative, isn’t it.

Personally, I see our match winning forward three to be Gresham, King, Butler

Then at the CHF line, Higgins (Steele?..fill in the blank…Wood?) and Membrey

Long tries hard, but so what? Really. Plenty try hard.

Tried as a forward, didn’t work well enough (obviously it sort of worked - as I suggest, all relative, who is available etc.)

Tried as a back…ditto

Tried as a forward again…???

[Sanctorum]

As I said, if you're going to focus on a few errors and start summing up a player based on those errors then we would have had to cull King and possibly even Crouch and definitely Brad Hill for his horrendous clangers

Heck, did you see how many times Skunk fumbled and dropped marks and missed his set shots?

Long makes good decisions and is quick in his delivery by hand and foot. He is very well suited to a fast attacking game when we want to get the footy deep inside 50 so that King can contest 1 on 1. Longy is one of the players who we can develop to play like a Richmond back up mid or one of the Doggies support mids. That's how I saw his game prior to Ratts arriving and I think that's how Ratts sees him in the future

His delivery by foot is better than Crouch and Ross and Dunstan

Exactly right. Ben Long's problem is that he has not been used very much as a defensive forward which is what he does best. Now that the selectors have finally woken up to this I expect him to take ownership of that position and become a integral part of St Kilda's attack and kick a lot of goals.

[asiu]

Gee a bloke named Stephen Milne used to go alright in starvation corner.

he used to make me laugh

i'm sure he thought he was a lead up forward

he marked the pill ok (from my memory)

[B.M]

Milney didn’t get a lot of the footy

He just made the most of his opportunities

His timing and goal sense was remarkable

He did play in a great side though, and the ball was coming in a lot, and quickly.

That being said, doubt I’ll see a better small forward in my time. Only Betts I would rate better in my time watching the game

[Yorkeys]

I am thinking Long has made one of the forward 6 positions his. Max has his of course. And Billings. Looks like Butler would have to proposition Pres' wife to get dropped now, so 2 positions up for grabs. Membrey will take at least 1/2 of one. Wood has inside running on one but young Sharman is looming large. Higgins may regret his inaccuracy against Swans more than he initially thought. Kent, if he had actually put McGovern out of the game would have some brownies, but he didn't, glancing blows like points from easy set shots have no currency.

[shanegrambeau]

I am thinking Long has made one of the forward 6 positions his. Max has his of course. And Billings. Looks like Butler would have to proposition Pres' wife to get dropped now, so 2 positions up for grabs. Membrey will take at least 1/2 of one. Wood has inside running on one but young Sharman is looming large. Higgins may regret his inaccuracy against Swans more than he initially thought. Kent, if he had actually put McGovern out of the game would have some brownies, but he didn't, glancing blows like points from easy set shots have no currency.

Where is Gresham in that picture? I think the opportunity cost of having him as an average mid-fielder is too high. (ditto Clarke) I think he has to be a small forward and he is easily our best small forward.

As I said, Long isn't good enough if the team wants to be top four...but he'd be handy as a utility off the bench or in the seconds. (My caveat, is I am only basing this on watching games late '19, '20 and this year)

[B.M]

Gresham is seen as a Mid

He wants to play mid

Coach thinks he’s a clearance inside mid

[shanegrambeau]

Gresham is seen as a Mid

He wants to play mid

Coach thinks he’s a clearance inside mid

Well, I say bad luck Gresham. Do as you are told. Put the team first. Be a smart small forward and maybe you can be like a classic old school 2nd rover and occasionally run on the ball, but not the usual mid-bench-mid-bench pattern that standard mids have nowadays. Our mid field is limited for sure, but we have a little gold nugget in Gresham and a forward line has been a mess.

[asiu]

Milney didn’t get a lot of the footy

He just made the most of his opportunities

His timing and goal sense was remarkable

He did play in a great side though, and the ball was coming in a lot, and quickly.

That being said, doubt I’ll see a better small forward in my time. Only Betts I would rate better in my time watching the game

(i'm not really a stats type of guy)

but he took 1000 marks over his career @3.64

thats gotta be a bit special ?

[Scollop]

As I said, Long isn't good enough if the team wants to be top four...but he'd be handy as a utility off the bench or in the seconds. (My caveat, is I am only basing this on watching games late '19, '20 and this year)

I recall that you've posted several times that you live in Japan

You have to be at the ground in my opinion to get a better idea of what a player is capable of and what a player can produce. Hopefully when this pandemic is over you and other ex-pats will get a chance to see our boys live.

Brett Ratten is not a fool. He gave Ben an opportunity last year to be a distributor from half back because he knew Ben could play.

He is down on confidence atm but you don't lose your skills or your ability. Ask yourself this; Why does a player execute a bump? Is it anything that is going to earn him a disposal or a stat? Most times No! It's an act that slows down an opposition player or gives them sore ribs that could make them less of a threat to his team. It's a team act isn't it?

He was awesome in 2020 and he obviously overstepped the mark a couple of times with the bump, but in most instances his aggression and his bumps helped his team to victory. It also cost him a game in the semi against Richmond, but I think the injury to Ryder cost us more than the suspension to Long

He played Round 1 2021 and was very good against GWS and then was used as sub in about 4 games and couldn't get any consistency. He was dropped when we got smashed by Melbourne and Port. The shocking losses we've had earlier this year with 60 point losses and 80 and 110 point losses were not because of Ben Long.

In late 2019 in one of the last matches for Jack Steven in a Saints jumper, it was Ben Long who created the opportunity for Jack to kick a goal in the dying minutes that helped us get over the line in a memorable win against Freo. It happens in the first 15 seconds, so don't blink or you'll miss it. This isn't anything spectacular, but it's another example of his game sense



I first noticed little things in games from Ben in 2018. There were a few games where he only had 10-15 touches but they usually led to opening up the ground and freeing a player to start a scoring chain. He was also good in and under at a stoppage and could get a tap on, or if in traffic he was quick to spot someone in space with a short lightning handpass or an accurate long hard handpass.

I liked what I saw because of his decision making and the way Ben brings other players into the game. Watch his highlights reel from 2019 and pay particular attention to the way he shares the footy.

[carn_sainter]

I also like Long, but I think a valid criticism is that we need to show highlights from 2019 to justify his selection in 2021.

Unfortunately, he is not a solid, reliable, improving starting 18 player which is what he should be at this point in his career. He has had plenty of chances.

I love how gutsy he is - attacking the ball, the man and using the ball. He can be very damaging. But he also can go missing and be ineffective. Unfortunately, missing and ineffective sum up his entire 2021 season.

Unfortunately, he's being played more or less commensurate with what he is, which is a fringe player.

[Scollop]

BS

If there were 2020 highlights reels on youtube I would have posted but that's all I found

[Scollop]

People think that someone is a 'fringe' player because he gets dropped. That's not always the case

Part of a young players learning involves playing different roles for the team and I believe that it's a positive for Ben and it's part of Ratten's plan for Bens development.

He sent him to the VFL and told him he was going to play forward which was not his position and not what he trained for in preseason

He has been less ineffective than 6-7 of the starting 22, some of which have had a free ticket and a guaranteed spot (Both the COO and the coach openly declaring they won't be dropped).


Most of your first picked guys also didn't have to experience the inconvenience of being the sub 4 or 5 times and no VFL games.

[Sanctorum]

Ben Long is probably the only St Kilda player with an aggressive streak in his attack on the ball and the player in possession, and although he sometimes gets pinged, I believe his overall stats in that part of his game are very positive.

As I commented earlier, his natural position was always in attack and it's only in recent times that the coaches have woken up to this and played him there.

Like a lot of St Kilda players, he has taken longer than expected to hone his craft but in time, and providing he continues to play in the forward line, he will develop the confidence to become a a potent force in St Kilda's attack and even take the odd speccy and goal to add to his highlight reel!

[shanegrambeau]

Milney didn’t get a lot of the footy

He just made the most of his opportunities

His timing and goal sense was remarkable

He did play in a great side though, and the ball was coming in a lot, and quickly.

That being said, doubt I’ll see a better small forward in my time. Only Betts I would rate better in my time watching the game

(i'm not really a stats type of guy)

but he took 1000 marks over his career @3.64

thats gotta be a bit special ?

Go to 3:47

Miiiillllneeeeey! TiiiiiiiiiiiiIIIIIIIIIP!





About Longy, he attacks I love it, but where is the improvement going to come from? Set shots? Getting into positions? Snaps? I can’t see where a path of improvement lies. He is definitely giving it his all, and bravo for that. As I said, relative, if no one is better, then fine (better than Kent) , perhaps not as good as Hind.

[sunsaint]

fair to say im not overly a fan - especially if we are to improve the list
but I think there is one way to settle this argument once and for ever

If you had a choice between B Long and N Hind who would you choose to improve our list?
and yes I know someone is going to chime in and say they play different positions but Nick has kicked as many goals this year as Ben has
and no where else does Bens' stats come close or better unless you are talking clangers or frees against

[The Fireman]

Ben Long is probably the only St Kilda player with an aggressive streak in his attack on the ball and the player in possession, and although he sometimes gets pinged, I believe his overall stats in that part of his game are very positive.

As I commented earlier, his natural position was always in attack and it's only in recent times that the coaches have woken up to this and played him there.

Like a lot of St Kilda players, he has taken longer than expected to hone his craft but in time, and providing he continues to play in the forward line, he will develop the confidence to become a a potent force in St Kilda's attack and even take the odd speccy and goal to add to his highlight reel!

yep

[Scollop]

fair to say im not overly a fan - especially if we are to improve the list
but I think there is one way to settle this argument once and for ever

If you had a choice between B Long and N Hind who would you choose to improve our list?
and yes I know someone is going to chime in and say they play different positions but Nick has kicked as many goals this year as Ben has
and no where else does Bens' stats come close or better unless you are talking clangers or frees against

So apart from ranking Hind as a better player… you’re also saying we need a new list manager and new football operations manager for letting him go to Essendon

[shanegrambeau]

Ben Long…..he has taken longer than expected….and providing he continues…..he will develop the confidence to become a a potent force in St Kilda's attack and even take the odd speccy and goal to add to his highlight reel!

yep

Playing for premiership points or development???

That is the question…

…develop confidence??? I agree it’s a difficult chicken-and-egg conundrum, but where it resolves itself is firmly in the region of, ‘Are we competitive?’

No four points means a failure for the whole team, the coach, the fans and the rest of the competition takes note!!

There is no column on the ladder for ‘development of fringe players down on confidence’

If we are fair dinkum we don’t play players like that in the firsts.. they play seconds then get a crack in the right game, and if they lack confidence they go straight back to the seconds.. you cannot remain competitive by running a ‘development camp’ in the middle of games for premiership points!!

[The Fireman]

Ben Long…..he has taken longer than expected….and providing he continues…..he will develop the confidence to become a a potent force in St Kilda's attack and even take the odd speccy and goal to add to his highlight reel!

yep

Playing for premiership points or development???

That is the question…

…develop confidence??? I agree it’s a difficult chicken-and-egg conundrum, but where it resolves itself is firmly in the region of, ‘Are we competitive?’

No four points means a failure for the whole team, the coach, the fans and the rest of the competition takes note!!

There is no column on the ladder for ‘development of fringe players down on confidence’

If we are fair dinkum we don’t play players like that in the firsts.. they play seconds then get a crack in the right game, and if they lack confidence they go straight back to the seconds.. you cannot remain competitive by running a ‘development camp’ in the middle of games for premiership points!!

we aren't a complete side atm and the thought of a flag is a bit outrageous , I'm happy to improve players by game time especially Long.
Who knows, Long in the forward half may get us into the finals...or not...roll the dice.

[Scollop]

If we are fair dinkum we don’t play players like that in the firsts.. they play seconds then get a crack in the right game, and if they lack confidence they go straight back to the seconds.. you cannot remain competitive by running a ‘development camp’ in the middle of games for premiership points!!

That’s the same thing you were saying in April about King. You called for Max to be dropped didn’t you? So did I.

I think Ratts has a better plan than you or I and I think he knows a thing or two more than you and I

[shanegrambeau]

If we are fair dinkum we don’t play players like that in the firsts.. they play seconds then get a crack in the right game, and if they lack confidence they go straight back to the seconds.. you cannot remain competitive by running a ‘development camp’ in the middle of games for premiership points!!

That’s the same thing you were saying in April about King. You called for Max to be dropped didn’t you? So did I.

I think Ratts has a better plan than you or I and I think he knows a thing or two more than you and I

yep...and i still don't disagree.... Maxy kicked a bag and looked like a machine...so great. But at that time, i really believed he shouldn't be out there. he was a mess. Broken.

But with Maxy, I could see the scope. With Longy, I just don't. With Max you noticed all kinds of amazing things, finger tip touch off the deck (amazing for a big guy...balance etc., as i said earlier, I just don't see where Long's development can go...I haven't noticed anything yet. I love the effort. And as I say, it's all relative. He may well be the best we have for that slot..fair enough, play him then. but I don't see a top four team with that set -up. now with Gresh as a small forward...that is another proposition! That is class.

[B.M]

Gresh won’t play much forward

Club sees him as a mid

[Scollop]

But with Maxy, I could see the scope. With Longy, I just don't.

…etc., as i said earlier, I just don't see where Long's development can go...I haven't noticed anything yet. I love the effort. And as I say, it's all relative.

Did you watch the last quarter against West Coast? Long was probably our second most effective player after King.

You probably don’t have access to all the quarter by quarter stats and you won’t get the data the club has, but that’s ok…just watch the footy and pay attention next time

[takeaway]

But with Maxy, I could see the scope. With Longy, I just don't.

…etc., as i said earlier, I just don't see where Long's development can go...I haven't noticed anything yet. I love the effort. And as I say, it's all relative.

Did you watch the last quarter against West Coast? Long was probably our second most effective player after King.

You probably don’t have access to all the quarter by quarter stats and you won’t get the data the club has, but that’s ok…just watch the footy and pay attention next time

So Longy got quite a few of his 9 disposals in the last quarter did he? What was he doing in the first 3 quarters? He did have a total of one metre gained - was that his shot for goal from one metre out?

It's OK executing a few bone crunching tackles (as long as they are legal), but he needs to have more consistent impact for me.

He is well behind Higgins and Butler (who has improved in recent weeks) in the HF stakes, and probably ahead of Kent and Lonie, so the next month is very important for him to consolidate his position.

As we get injured players back, and add Gresham & Paton next year, it will be difficult for him to retain a spot in the best 22. I doubt that he will, but happy for him to prove me wrong.