Seb Ross, Tim Membrey, Jake Carlisle family leave.

[SaintDippa]

Caro. The Queen of unnamed sources. Haven't believed a word uttered since 1998.

[Yorkeys]

The issue causing the situation is Victoria's COVID restrictions and other States reactions, yes?

In the pre Covid world players could both pretty much be with their families and play because there was ease of transport and no quarantine rules (remember the good days). I imagine the two men put the club on notice about their reasonable family commitments and the club honoured their wishes because
1. a lot of what the players are putting up with is through their goodwill and cooperation of the Players Association to keep the seasons going, so there has to be give and take, and
2. its a sensible concession to make to a couple of genuine true servants of the club. Unless you are heartless and want them to be disgruntled.
(The way Wood started I thought we might not need Members tonight - yes rash I know), and how unlucky Clarke gets smashed and Bytel could not step up - that made Seb's absence obvious.

Caro discounting the full impacts/complexities/uncertainties of the various Covid regimes is being disingenuous. Who would have thought.
Remember when there were hypotheticals about play in a grand final or be present at a birth. The correct answer was miss the game, but that was never what would happen (I think?) - its always a case by case thingy.

[shanegrambeau]

I agree with the sentiments of the OP, though it's hard to argue against time off for the birth of a baby every now and then.

What might be called "the Finnis mindset" has taken over this club and I don't believe it's a good thing. Finnis was CEO of the Players Association and came to the club with a "player welfare first" mentality.

Add to that an admin that was eager to distance itself from the trumped-up scandals of the past (e.g. the St Kilda schoolgirl) and you have a perfect storm of wokeness.

Footy is still a supremely masculine game that requires intense discipline, courage, endurance, one-sightedness and a bit of killer instinct.

This sits very uneasily with the empathy blanket that's been thrown over the Saints.

The empathy validates emotional fluctuations and leads to an unstable, volatile mentality.

Get rid of the hippies and psychologists and bring in some men.

Thank you guys and gals? For participating and not slamming down the ol sledgehammer with blanket statements.

There are shades of grey.

Anyone who invests in the aged care business in Australia knows it too well…Aussie for all our ‘inclusiveness’ mantra treat our oldies pretty badly…

Aged care facilities here I come…if i am lucky…pension has gone to pot.

Footballers are young people parade their babies around like pendants of pride before th crowds..fair enough, while granny goes off to the care centre.

I m in no position to judge anyone as individuals….but i ask the question…how do you run a business?

Take Nathan brown.. the conversation as far as i know, goes like this.


2019

St Kilda: “Nathan Brown, we’d like to offer you a contract for 2020, wwe need a backup, we value your leadership, are you in?”
Nathan Brown: “Yep, I’m in. Sign me up!”
St Kilda: “No kidding around Nathan, we mean business, arre you sure? 2020, one year contract, OK”
Nathan Brown: “I’m in…I said I’m in. Where do I sign”
….mid-season 2020…St Kilda starts well, but is getting found out….
Nathan Brown: “Look, I’m jack of this. I’m out”
St Kilda: “Sure, Nathan. We understand that! We are inclusive. Family first always! Good on ya mate..Job well done. You can go…just forget it …spend time with your family…oh…make sure you tell Shane Savage that training’s on at 4pm and wwe are doing pinch tests OK?”
Nathan Brown: “No worries. I’ll tell him”
St Kilda: Damn, we are in a pickle …the back line is leaking like a sieve! Oh..phone call hello, yes, hello, St Kilda football club, John speaking, how can I help you?
Jake Carlisle: Hi…it’s Jake. Listen, I’m out…Mrs is expecting.
St Kilda: no worries Jake! Off ya go.. Don’t forget…family first always! Listen, if you catch up with Nathan down there…have one on us!
Jake Carlilse: Yeah…but I made my quota OK…
St Kilda: well, Jake …I don’t know about all the details…all I can tell you is that its family first. That is what St Kilda stands for. It ‘ain’t 1951. I ain’t giving with my grandma, are you?


Forgive me fellow Saints..I need to lighten it up a little.

[B.M]

Work should be a bit of Priority when you’re on half a million for 22 games!

Plenty of FIFO husbands have kids and have to go to work away from home for periods

And they have no choice, if they want to get paid!

Happy for them to take unpaid leave for the week. But it’d be a % of their wage forfeited
Same would have applied to Paddy Ryder

You can’t expect to get paid if your not working and earning that money!

[Vortex]

Work should be a bit of Priority when you’re on half a million for 22 games!

Plenty of FIFO husbands have kids and have to go to work away from home for periods

And they have no choice, if they want to get paid!

Happy for them to take unpaid leave for the week. But it’d be a % of their wage forfeited
Same would have applied to Paddy Ryder

You can’t expect to get paid if your not working and earning that money!

It turns out there are confirmed reports of people at the club not being happy with Sebs decision.

Club is not a happy place at the moment.

[bigcarl]

Wilson is a bitch, and a known St Kilda basher. Why the f*** would you want to side with her.

I think that’s the mature response the OP was looking for.

She may well be a bitch, but she’s right IMO.

What did her thourthes thay about Riley Thilthorpe?

But yep, she is right.

Our guys are well paid for their services. They are the breadwinners providing resources for young families. Make them play.

[B.M]

I would be pissed if I was their employer

Publicly they’ll say the party line - family first blah blah

Internally it’d be a different story, players and coaches would be frustrated/annoyed with leaders choosing to go home (after a week away) in the clubs time of need and they are amongst the most valuable players - put it this way

Ryder doesn’t take 5 games off at the start of the year and Seb Ross and Membrey play Sat - we are 7-6 at worst and in contention for finals.

Jobs are on the line here and it’s a performance based industry!

Coaches, players, themselves could be in jeopardy of losing their job as a result!

It’s a multi million dollars business

It’s not missing a game of local suburban football to look after the kids!

[sunsaint]

Work should be a bit of Priority when you’re on half a million for 22 games!

Plenty of FIFO husbands have kids and have to go to work away from home for periods

And they have no choice, if they want to get paid!

Happy for them to take unpaid leave for the week. But it’d be a % of their wage forfeited
Same would have applied to Paddy Ryder

You can’t expect to get paid if your not working and earning that money!

It turns out there are confirmed reports of people at the club not being happy with Sebs decision.

Club is not a happy place at the moment.

Not only that
If the report was wrong the club would have been making an announcement denying it loud and clear TODAY
The crickets are deafening

[Vortex]

Work should be a bit of Priority when you’re on half a million for 22 games!

Plenty of FIFO husbands have kids and have to go to work away from home for periods

And they have no choice, if they want to get paid!

Happy for them to take unpaid leave for the week. But it’d be a % of their wage forfeited
Same would have applied to Paddy Ryder

You can’t expect to get paid if your not working and earning that money!

It turns out there are confirmed reports of people at the club not being happy with Sebs decision.

Club is not a happy place at the moment.

Not only that
If the report was wrong the club would have been making an announcement denying it loud and clear TODAY
The crickets are deafening

Precisely.

[markp]

Big money usually means big sacrifices are expected, or fine, go do something else.

And yeah I think the real story here (if indeed corroborated) is the level of internal frustration and division it implies.

It has seemed fairly apparent that there is more going on down there than just bad luck and poor form.

[ace]

To answer your question no you can't have a mature conversation.
Just like I can't say why without getting a ban for politics.

[The_Dud]

Work should be a bit of Priority when you’re on half a million for 22 games!

Plenty of FIFO husbands have kids and have to go to work away from home for periods

And they have no choice, if they want to get paid!

Happy for them to take unpaid leave for the week. But it’d be a % of their wage forfeited
Same would have applied to Paddy Ryder

You can’t expect to get paid if your not working and earning that money!

Pretty sure footballers aren’t FIFO workers.

Also pretty sure there are a bunch of laws employers must follow in regards to sick/carers/maternity/paternity leave.

What did we want the club to do, hold the players in Sydney/Cairns against their will??

[The_Dud]

I agree with the sentiments of the OP, though it's hard to argue against time off for the birth of a baby every now and then.

What might be called "the Finnis mindset" has taken over this club and I don't believe it's a good thing. Finnis was CEO of the Players Association and came to the club with a "player welfare first" mentality.

Add to that an admin that was eager to distance itself from the trumped-up scandals of the past (e.g. the St Kilda schoolgirl) and you have a perfect storm of wokeness.

Footy is still a supremely masculine game that requires intense discipline, courage, endurance, one-sightedness and a bit of killer instinct.

This sits very uneasily with the empathy blanket that's been thrown over the Saints.

The empathy validates emotional fluctuations and leads to an unstable, volatile mentality.

Get rid of the hippies and psychologists and bring in some men.

Oh dear…

[shanegrambeau]

To answer your question no you can't have a mature conversation.
Just like I can't say why without getting a ban for politics.

I think we sort of managed to get somewhere. It is highly risky, touch and go, post to post, but we have acknowledged the grey, the subjectivity involved.

I am surprised nobody took up the prompt to look at Melbourne, and the way they managed the McDonald EBS (Expecting Baby Situation). They said he is going to Sydney. Of course it is all case-by-case and we all different, however some will forget the nuances and jump for their rifles for doctrine and demonstration purposes..

I thank all the posters who contributed to this, including you ace, because yes, we are of course drifting into mined waters if you speak anything 'off message'.

Feel sorry for Ratts too.

And again, I am flummoxed as to why people don't even question how Brown was allowed to slip his contract obligations mid-season last year. Mid-contract, and of course, when Carlisle went we needed him. Instead of asking questions about our management we said, 'Good on ya big fella, great service'. COVID will be mentioned of course...OK...so its just not an excuse to throw the book away. Again, I point to Melbourne as being strong with McDonald.

But it is not the players' fault that they have this mindset...its a cultural thing the Players Association , the managers etc., senior players like Jack Riewoldt is tough to listen to nowadays.

Anyway, great work to even have some level of dialogue instead of a witch burning fest.

[The_Dud]

To answer your question no you can't have a mature conversation.
Just like I can't say why without getting a ban for politics.

I think we sort of managed to get somewhere. It is highly risky, touch and go, post to post, but we have acknowledged the grey, the subjectivity involved.

I am surprised nobody took up the prompt to look at Melbourne, and the way they managed the McDonald EBS (Expecting Baby Situation). They said he is going to Sydney. Of course it is all case-by-case and we all different, however some will forget the nuances and jump for their rifles for doctrine and demonstration purposes..

I thank all the posters who contributed to this, including you ace, because yes, we are of course drifting into mined waters if you speak anything 'off message'.

Feel sorry for Ratts too.

And again, I am flummoxed as to why people don't even question how Brown was allowed to slip his contract obligations mid-season last year. Mid-contract, and of course, when Carlisle went we needed him. Instead of asking questions about our management we said, 'Good on ya big fella, great service'. COVID will be mentioned of course...OK...so its just not an excuse to throw the book away. Again, I point to Melbourne as being strong with McDonald.

But it is not the players' fault that they have this mindset...its a cultural thing the Players Association , the managers etc., senior players like Jack Riewoldt is tough to listen to nowadays.

Anyway, great work to even have some level of dialogue instead of a witch burning fest.

The Brown situation seems pretty simple to me.

He was faced with the prospect of spending months away from his young family in the middle of a pandemic to be a backup and not play football, in the last year of his career.

A no brainer from his end.

[freely]

Family more important than anything else, end of discussion.

Ah yes, the old Ross Lyon mantra. Think it's time for us to change our motto. How about "Strength through Mediocrity"?

[Ape_Man]

It has been interesting reading these comments. Some pretty good arguments either way.

I think the club did the right thing letting Membrey, Ross and Paddy head home for family reasons.

Family is the most important part of my life, so it is easy for me to assume it is for them too.

Although I do appreciate the argument that their decision affects the club, the supporters, sponsored etc..

Here is a thought experiment:

If a player requests leave for family time and is denied what would that mean for their future at the club?

How would you feel if such a personal request was denied?

[carn_sainter]

Wilson is a bitch, and a known St Kilda basher. Why the f*** would you want to side with her.

We might not like some of her views on the Saints, but keep your gutter language off this forum thanks.

Saynta, grow up. This is offensive, mate. Pathetic.

In regards to the OP, i kind of agree that when players sign up to play they know what they're signing up for and that when they have a family they know what they're signing up for and it looks like they expect to have their cake and eat it too.

The club does it for player retention and acquisition. Kind of caught between a rock and a hard place

[Devilhead]

So Seb is 28 and out of contract at the end of this year ....... seems family at the moment takes precedence to playing ..... so is Seb done??

[Scollop]

good for another 2-3 years imo

Steele and Crouch seem to be preferred as the inside mids with Sebby playing more as the tagger or defensive mid

He's shown that he is more than capable of filling holes in our midfield or on the wing

Seb is Durable; competitive; a role model on and off the training track; able to lift when required as he showed late last year

[Laurie]

Family comes first just ask yourself the question if you were in their position..
I support he guys in their decision.

[Vazelos]

A few long bows being drawn in the OP.

Football is a job, and family is more important than work. If I went to my employer tomorrow and said I need 2 weeks off for family reasons, they'd say "no worries, is 2 weeks enough?"

Also forcing someone to do something they don't want isn't the best way to get optimal performance.

Yeah - do you earn between 500-800k a year? Is your work determined by 6 months of the year results? My employer would do the same for me as yours would. Yet I understand that my circumstances don't demand anything like what these guys do.

Speaking of long bows. Comparing Gary Ablett juniors situation to our players by one poster on here is ridiculous. If a member of Seb or Tim's family were critically ill or there was a problem with the health of a loved one, particularly an immediate family member, then taking time off is a no brainer. Bloody hell, Seb had already missed a game so that he could be at the birth.

We're part time footballers supported by a coach who I reckon has been massively influenced by tragic events in his life which is clouding his judgement on these things.

Family is more important than work? Yeah righto, until there is no work and your family isn't very happy with you. These guys are millionaire footballers who can afford nanny's, cleaners, cooks if they want. They live a lifestyle most of us would kill for. Partners are struggling with young children at home so they take off whilst the season is on the line and the club is cruelled with injuries. If it weren't so pathetic it would be laughable.

Such a flippant comment, 'family is more important.' As the OP states, almost impossible to argue against until you see the circumstances. Makes you sound like a good compassionate guy when you argue for it as if there's no grey. I see ppl literally tearing the club to shreds on social media for our loss on the weekend. I GUARANTEE that a good % of them would have been all for Seb and Tim going home to their partners. The irony being that if both had of played on Saturday night, we almost certainly would have won. Well if you're all for players taking off to hold their partners hand then you really have no right to squeal about the result on the weekend, especially when we lose by under a goal.

Bravo Moods brilliantly positioned argument I am support your views!!!

[Vazelos]

Wilson is a bitch, and a known St Kilda basher. Why the f*** would you want to side with her.

Any chance of you debating the subject intelligently and not being over emotional and attacking the person and calling her names?
This issue has hurt our club considerably of recent times and is a highly sensitive but important subject to debate and as members we have a right to impart our views.
It involves family but also work responsibilities and also to an army of supporters that invest time emotions and money into the organisation.

[CQ SAINT]

Seb Ross and Membrey have given years of tireless service to the club. Paddy is a respected warrior nearing retirement.
One decision each to support their family or their own mental health won't define their careers, just the way one more more loss and one more year out of finals, won't define the future of the club.
There are far greater issues on the agenda for this club other than blaming Seb, Tim or Paddy for our position.
If Ratten or Lethlean denied them, they'd be sidestepping responsibility and Caro would be arguing the opposite.
How did the decision work out for McDonald? I'm not surprised we aren't hearing about that.

[Vazelos]

A few long bows being drawn in the OP.

Football is a job, and family is more important than work. If I went to my employer tomorrow and said I need 2 weeks off for family reasons, they'd say "no worries, is 2 weeks enough?"

Also forcing someone to do something they don't want isn't the best way to get optimal performance.

Yeah - do you earn between 500-800k a year? Is your work determined by 6 months of the year results? My employer would do the same for me as yours would. Yet I understand that my circumstances don't demand anything like what these guys do.

Speaking of long bows. Comparing Gary Ablett juniors situation to our players by one poster on here is ridiculous. If a member of Seb or Tim's family were critically ill or there was a problem with the health of a loved one, particularly an immediate family member, then taking time off is a no brainer. Bloody hell, Seb had already missed a game so that he could be at the birth.

We're part time footballers supported by a coach who I reckon has been massively influenced by tragic events in his life which is clouding his judgement on these things.

Family is more important than work? Yeah righto, until there is no work and your family isn't very happy with you. These guys are millionaire footballers who can afford nanny's, cleaners, cooks if they want. They live a lifestyle most of us would kill for. Partners are struggling with young children at home so they take off whilst the season is on the line and the club is cruelled with injuries. If it weren't so pathetic it would be laughable.

Such a flippant comment, 'family is more important.' As the OP states, almost impossible to argue against until you see the circumstances. Makes you sound like a good compassionate guy when you argue for it as if there's no grey. I see ppl literally tearing the club to shreds on social media for our loss on the weekend. I GUARANTEE that a good % of them would have been all for Seb and Tim going home to their partners. The irony being that if both had of played on Saturday night, we almost certainly would have won. Well if you're all for players taking off to hold their partners hand then you really have no right to squeal about the result on the weekend, especially when we lose by under a goal.

Bravo Moods brilliantly positioned argument I support your views!!!