Ben Long

[saynta]

I would like to get the thoughts of other forumites as to where they see Ben Long's develop. IMHO he is still the same player he was in 2017-8.

His stats seem to reflect this. He has averaged 11 possessions a game over his four years, with one year that number soaring to 12.

His performance in the practice match against Norf was instructive. Eight possessions against a pathetic opposition. Please correct me if that is wrong. This is fairly typical of his output. The quarterback type playmaker. The seventh defender. Not good enough IMHO.

He has been overtaken by Sinclair, Webster and God forbid, DMac. Interestingly, a mate who is a recruiter for Melbourne gave me another perspective. Melbourne was interested in the off season, but dismissed our demand of a pick on the 30s.

Essendon in their annual inquiry about Longy laughed at our demand for a pick in the 30s as well. I know that involved Dildoro was involved in that, but it shows you his market value.

I know the coach is a fan, but IMHO he is no more than a GOP. In racing parlance, prefer others. He occasionally shows a flash of skill, but then retreats into his default position for long periods of time. Mediocrity.

And he could do well to drop the pretend "hard man" act. All he's done with his tough guy schtick
is give away free kicks and get suspended. Next year, grab that pick on the 40s and run like it's stolen.

Harsh, but no thanks to the 40's pick.

[nostalgicsaint]

Re if he was traded I'd almost be disappointed if we let him go for a pick in the 30s.

We know he can play afl and has upside. Pick in the 30s has to develop and could be sub afl standard.

Rather hold the asset we have than change and hope.

[older saint]

Far from sold on him in best 22.

Improved a lot this year but very loose in defence. If you watch games last year teams targeted his opponent as the play through player to move the ball forward.
His drive and flair off HB is important and gains a lot of attention but defence needs to improve IMO.

Pressure will be up this year with hopefuly Webster back and others potentially in that role.

[The Billings Method]

The last on this from me. I really hope Ben Succeeds. It will be his 5th year, coming up to 50 games. In betting parlance, he's due. The potential has always been there and never been matched by his performance. Hopefully consistency comes with more experience.

[nostalgicsaint]

Some comparisions at the same age.

Long vs Geary
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 1=O&fid2=O

Long vs Webster
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 1=O&fid2=O

Long vs Brett Voss
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 1=O&fid2=O

Long vs Sean Dempster
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 1=O&fid2=O


I use the above comparisions as this is the sort of player I see Long as. Will first and foremost beat his opponent, then will provide little moments the other way from time to time, a big mark, a big tackle, a surprising run.

He is never going to be the 25+ possession interceptor but he is going to be a strong, reliable and agressive part of our back 6.



For those who think he can provide more offensively- one from left field...

Long vs Aussie Jones
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 1=O&fid2=O

[cwrcyn]

Still has huge scope for improvement. People rave about Coffield and yet put a big question mark on Long. Seems odd to me. I think they're pretty much on par for output and influence at this stage of their careers. One thing Long has over Coffield is hardness. Coffield is a better kick. How many games has Long played? Maybe 45? He will get better, but his ceiling is hard to measure, whereas it's easy to imagine Coffield getting to the level of Brendan Goddard at his best.
I remember Justin Beckett early in his career. It was hard to imagine him reaching the level that he did and there was nothing remarkable about the way he played. Maybe this is the issue with people's perception of Long. There is nothing remarkable about the way he plays. It doesn't mean that he won't have a long and successful career.

[The Billings Method]

It may come as a huge shock to Long's fans, but Sinclair's stat's are superior for 2017-20. JWeb as well is slightly better than Long 2017-19. Shock horror, so are DMaC's for 2017-19. The latter two didn't get a go in 2020 because of injury and for the coach's tin ear for his pet's faults and dislike for DMaC's kicking. Even if it goes at 74% efficiency.

There's nothing worse than some inconvenient facts that contradict the opinions presented as fact by self appointed itks. I just can't take that sort of post seriously.

[B.M]

Justin Peckett finished 3rd in the B&F as a 21yo

[Scollop]

It may come as a huge shock to Long's fans, but Sinclair's stat's are superior for 2017-20. JWeb as well is slightly better than Long 2017-19. Shock horror, so are DMaC's for 2017-19. The latter two didn't get a go in 2020 because of injury and for the coach's tin ear for his pet's faults and dislike for DMaC's kicking. Even if it goes at 74% efficiency.

There's nothing worse than some inconvenient facts that contradict the opinions presented as fact by self appointed itks. I just can't take that sort of post seriously.

You are starting to see why the coach wants Ben in the team with facts like DE but you are still trying hard to justify your op

Long played as a small forward under Richo. I think being a forward while Roo was playing or being a forward for St Kilda in 2018, was a difficult ask. Also: You cannot compare a small forwards stats with Webster who was a half back flanker. You can however, compare Webster’s year at same age with Long’s 2020. That is why nostalgicsaint had comparisons ‘at the same age‘

Oh...and one other thing...you said prior to the above that it was going to be ‘the last on this’ from you. Let’s hope it is

The last on this from me. I really hope Ben Succeeds. It will be his 5th year, coming up to 50 games. In betting parlance, he's due. The potential has always been there and never been matched by his performance. Hopefully consistency comes with more experience.

[The Billings Method]

Couldn't stand to leave the outright ignorance go unchallenged, scollop. You are a champion at stating opinion as fact. No wonder you post the garbage you do. Give us a fact for a change, not your confirmation biased riddled opinions.

Thanks for confirming my opinion of you and your views. Any facts? No. Didn:t think so.

[nostalgicsaint]

Your OP generated some good discussion.

Try not to derail it by turning the conversation into a "I'm right, you're wrong" one.

He is young, the future is unknown. Depending on your lense he is capable of seeing out this contract and fading from memory or playing 150+ games.

Solid arguments for both.

[bangaulegend]

IMO has the ability to be in our best 22 & I back him to get there but weather he can grasp that opportunity is going to be totally up to Ben . I hope he can

[skeptic]

It may come as a huge shock to Long's fans, but Sinclair's stat's are superior for 2017-20. JWeb as well is slightly better than Long 2017-19. Shock horror, so are DMaC's for 2017-19. The latter two didn't get a go in 2020 because of injury and for the coach's tin ear for his pet's faults and dislike for DMaC's kicking. Even if it goes at 74% efficiency.

There's nothing worse than some inconvenient facts that contradict the opinions presented as fact by self appointed itks. I just can't take that sort of post seriously.

I think this is a really good, fun and interesting but I’m struggling with your reference to ITKs here. Looks to me like we’re all just stating our opinions hence am not sure what you’re getting at there.

With regards to the topic... I’m somewhat miffed at your point of comparison.

What’s the connection here between Long as more of a run with HBF that goes hard at the contest to SInclair who played as a midfielder that spent a lot of time on either flank at times as a play maker? They don’t look to me like they’re in direct competition

Likewise the most overrated player on the list IMO in Webster.
He’s been on the list for nearly 10 years at this point and all I hear is what a great player he’ll be if he’s injury free but I don’t think he’s even had one solid good year yet. Jimmy is not great in minding his opponent, frequently falls over... has the most erratic disposal and decision making we’ve seen since Raph Clarke but unlike Raph... he’s not one for prioritise the team stuff first.

That criticism aside... again, what’s the comparison here? Webster is a medium sized, intercept mark, put the ball in his hand and let him boom the ball out of defence type. He’s in competition with guys like Coffield and Wilkie as opposed to Long, Clarke and Paton.

Dmac is a much more apt comparison but how you’ve ended up with him as an almost starting 22 ahead of Long when most of us have him waiting out his contract to be cut is lost on me.
You point to possessions and DE... I point to the fact he gets burned by the faster, creative types, I don’t want the ball in his hands, and he doesn’t impact the play enough.
Paton and Geary are far preferred as stoppers
Clarke and Long you’d rather have around the contest.

100% agree with others that Long has a lot of room for improvement still with the most obvious area being the line between attacking the contest / flair and keeping the structure. Couldn’t help but feel that the back 6 of Coffield, Clark, Carlisle, Wilkie, Howard and Paton excelled at working together as a unit... knowing which plays go up in the contest, how to cover the spaces etc... Long to both positive and negative effect broke the structure and worked hard to get to the ball/contest, went for the speccy or tackle and lived and died by the results.

As has been pointed out... he needs to get a lot better at picking and choosing when to go as he periodically leaves his man open to get to a contest he can’t positively influence. The flip side of that though is his manic pressure, intensity and X-factor.

Anyway that’s my 2 cents on the question

[The Billings Method]

I was stating statistical facts. You and another condescending, self-appointed itk are stating opinion as fact. That is the difference. That is all.

[Scollop]

Couldn't stand to leave the outright ignorance go unchallenged, scollop. You are a champion at stating opinion as fact. No wonder you post the garbage you do. Give us a fact for a change, not your confirmation biased riddled opinions.

Thanks for confirming my opinion of you and your views. Any facts? No. Didn:t think so.

I was going to report you but I won’t.

I’ll just point out how ridiculous it is to read someone ask a question of a poster and then without the opportunity to answer your question you conclude that you know my response and you answer your own question. That’s gold.

Nostalgicsaint had stats that are relevant and seem like comparing apples with apples. Your stats are not a fair comparison. You’re trying to discredit me by implying that I generally post a lot of garbage. You attack me as a poster instead of discussing the topic or addressing any points raised in my prior post.

I’ll ask you a couple of questions; How long before you retire your current nic and I wonder what your new one will be?

[The Billings Method]

Typically condescending response. Pot, Kettle, Black. I find narcissistic self-appointed experts tend to do this when their opinions (which we mere mortals dare challenge) are questioned. That's all I did. As for the change of nic, can you offer further advice?

Next time I change my mind on something, I'll be sure to ask for your permission. Good grief. The arrogance is staggering. And I wasn't referring to you as an itk. You're anything but, nor is the poster I was referring to. I'm not an itk, but I do have a couple of mates who are. I just want the Saints to succeed. Unfortunately, I have obviously struck a nerve. Good.

[Vortex]

I'm hoping Jimmy W. can get back to his best form from a couple of years ago because if he can he is arguably ahead of Long in terms of reliability.

We actually need JW more than he needs us this season.

Longy has some work to do to convince most Pundits he can be trusted but there is no doubt he's full of potential...delivery time Benny.

[skeptic]

I was stating statistical facts. You and another condescending, self-appointed itk are stating opinion as fact. That is the difference. That is all.

You’re interpreting statistics to shape you’re argument. The implication your making is numbers and DE suggest that performances of those respective players is superior
As these aren’t definitive one way or another... like me what you’re doing is sharing an opinion.

Agree or disagree... I don’t think the distinction needs to be made that that’s what we’re all doing.

It’s clearly a contentious topic

[The Billings Method]

I think we're in furious agreement about that, Skeptic. BTW, I wasn't referring to you as the self appointed ITK. I was referring to someone else. I should've been more careful about the use of the quote button.

[skeptic]

I think we're in furious agreement about that, Skeptic. BTW, I wasn't referring to you as the self appointed ITK. I was referring to someone else. I should've been more careful about the use of the quote button.

I gathered that but appreciate the touch base

Really good OP that has generated interesting discussion

It’s interesting because personally previously I’ve all but written both Webster and Dmac off...
But both are fit
Hungry
And are likely under no illusions that without improvement they may be on the way out.

That makes them dangerous IMO. Dmac in particular has some very nice attributes in terms of running game and aerial work. Will be interesting to watch

[The Billings Method]

The best part is, all of them are as hard as cats' heads. The kicking is the query. With Paton gone, it's good to know we have three maniacs available to replace him. Sinclair appears to be a lock for round one, if the coach's utterances are to be believed. Long is the favourite to fill the last hole, but no certainty. Tonight will be fascinating.

[vacuous space]

Long led the team in intercept possessions per game and led all our defenders in contested possessions per game and defensive half pressure acts. If anything, he's not getting enough outside ball. It would be nice to see him bring more run and carry to the attack. Still, given the areas he's doing well, I'd say the odds of him getting dropped are long.

[Scollop]

Guys like Long won’t be treating this as a test of his position in the side. Tonight is a practice game.

Different plan of attack for different teams and I reckon Ratts will experiment somewhat and keep demanding flexibility from his players. We don’t have to play our best footy in March or be at our absolute fittest in March.

For Teague and his players it is about showing members and sponsors that they can beat teams around them on the ladder. They are under pressure to make finals in 2021 and they have to show their fans they are serious about winning

[The Fireman]

Guys like Long won’t be treating this as a test of his position in the side. Tonight is a practice game.

Different plan of attack for different teams and I reckon Ratts will experiment somewhat and keep demanding flexibility from his players. We don’t have to play our best footy in March or be at our absolute fittest in March.

For Teague and his players it is about showing members and sponsors that they can beat teams around them on the ladder. They are under pressure to make finals in 2021 and they have to show their fans they are serious about winning

which is why we should flog them.

[Scollop]

Nothing please more than beating Carlton. They inflicted a lot of pain on Saints fans in the 80’s and 90’s.

It’ll be good to continue our recent dominance and keep returning the favour