RUCK Duo Zero

[BarryGrogan]

When has Marshall ever dominated as a forward?
He's been a dominant and combative ruck.

Internally, his ruckwork has been considered a concern.

Although he performed better than most of our players last year, the team sucked. In part, our mids roving to the opposition ruckman each week was why.

The intention as I understand it, is to develop Marshall as both a ruckman, and also use him as a forward.
His ruckwork is poor, but he should improve by being able to learn from Ryder, and also ruck against opponents that have been softened up by him.

Obviously in the short term Marshall's numbers won't be as high, but he should become a better player for it and the team will benefit too.


I think it's obvious that the team already has benefited.

[takeaway]

When has Marshall ever dominated as a forward?
He's been a dominant and combative ruck.

Internally, his ruckwork has been considered a concern.

Although he performed better than most of our players last year, the team sucked. In part, our mids roving to the opposition ruckman each week was why.

The intention as I understand it, is to develop Marshall as both a ruckman, and also use him as a forward.
His ruckwork is poor, but he should improve by being able to learn from Ryder, and also ruck against opponents that have been softened up by him.

Obviously in the short term Marshall's numbers won't be as high, but he should become a better player for it and the team will benefit too.


I think it's obvious that the team already has benefited.

I agree. In 2019 Marshall dominated quite a few matches around the ground, but his ruckwork was never dominant - even if he won the hit out stats, a very low percentage went straight to the Saint's advantage. Ryder is a long way ahead of Roma in hitout to advantage ability, and I agree that one of the plans of the club was to get Ryder in to teach Roma ruck craft, as well as helping him on the field as required. The shorter quarters/games has not helped the two ruckmen scenario. I thought Ryder held his own with Grundy purely in the hitouts. Pity we haven't got a Paddy Marshall.

Having said that, I would go with one ruck against Tigers, and leave Paddy out.

[samoht]

Although he performed better than most of our players last year, the team sucked. In part, our mids roving to the opposition ruckman each week was why.

We had a whopping 37 more hitouts vs the Bulldogs - and just won the clearances by 3.
We only just lost the hitouts by 5 vs the Pies - it was almost line ball -and yet lost the clearances by a whopping 11.
Our mids don't need to be molly coddled (if that's what you call playing to a winning ruck - as far as hitouts go) ... they need to figure out how to clear the ball.

Hitouts just end up going anywhere most of the time - into a very congested area - with players from both sides breathing down each other's necks.
Even if the ball is to a clearance player's advantage, they get tackled and can be paid holding the ball or will end up turning it over under extreme pressure.

[Joffa Burns]

When has Marshall ever dominated as a forward?
He's been a dominant and combative ruck.

Internally, his ruckwork has been considered a concern.

Although he performed better than most of our players last year, the team sucked. In part, our mids roving to the opposition ruckman each week was why.

The intention as I understand it, is to develop Marshall as both a ruckman, and also use him as a forward.
His ruckwork is poor, but he should improve by being able to learn from Ryder, and also ruck against opponents that have been softened up by him.

Obviously in the short term Marshall's numbers won't be as high, but he should become a better player for it and the team will benefit too.


I think it's obvious that the team already has benefited.

I do not agree with any of that and believe the highlighted area is just fabricated to suit your opinion.

On pure hit out statics last season only Grundy, Gawn & Goldstein were ahhead of Marshall and in AFL & Supercoach rankings only Grundy and Gawn were ranked more highly.

By each week do you mean when we played Collingwood, Nth Melbourne & Melbourne or do you actually mean each week as written?

Yes Marshall is a relatively inexperienced senior player still learning the ruck craft, but to demote him and sap his confidence is not the answer IMO, keep his momentum from last season.

Ryder may be a more superior "tap ruckman" at centre bounces at this point in time, but if you think he is a superior all-round ruckman due to that one area of superiority you are living in the 1970's.

Here are the questions again?

with most acknowledging that Marshall is a better half forward than he is a ruckman.

Ryder is clearly our best ruckman,

Lonie adds nothing. Gresham is a liability.

Who are the most that acknowledge Marshall is a better half forward than a ruck man? Couldn’t establish himself as a forward and was 2nd in B&F as a ruck.

In what universe is Ryder currently better than Romas 2019 form. Paddy 2020 is a Longer clone, he’s not the 2016 Ryder.

Gresham a liability? Hind and Marsh were liabilities and perhaps Ryder & even Hannebery who looks disinterested. Gresham has some disposal issues to work on, but that comment is ridiculous.
At least he can win the ball.

[Moods]

From watching the game on TV it appeared in the 1st quarter that Grundy was absolutely slaughtering Marshall, whereas Ryder was jumping over the top of him on occasions and could at least compete.

[CURLY]

From watching the game on TV it appeared in the 1st quarter that Grundy was absolutely slaughtering Marshall, whereas Ryder was jumping over the top of him on occasions and could at least compete.

Ryder was beating Grundy to the point he actually infringed at every contest there after to beat Ryder.

[BarryGrogan]

I do not agree with any of that and believe the highlighted area is just fabricated to suit your opinion.

Actually the contraire.

I'd never particularly noticed Marshall's actual ruckwork as an issue to be honest. But Brendan Lade spoke about it at a Coaching Conference that he and Ratten presented at. That was somewhat surprising to me.

So I didn't make it up to suit my opinion - it was what led to me forming an opinion. Not vice versa.

[BarryGrogan]

Gresham a liability? Hind and Marsh were liabilities and perhaps Ryder & even Hannebery who looks disinterested. Gresham has some disposal issues to work on, but that comment is ridiculous.
At least he can win the ball.

I actually think we should trade Gresham.

He doesn't have 'disposal issues', he can't kick! This isn't new either. I posted about it last year - and nothing has changed. There's been no improvement.

Dunstan and Ross can win the ball too, but when you butcher it by foot every time then you become a liability.

I actually can't recall the last time he kicked a set shot either.

One of three things need to happen with him:

1) He learns how to kick. Unlikely given he's had the same isue for at least 3 years.

2) He gets coached not to kick.

3) Trade him.

[BarryGrogan]

Our mids don't need to be molly coddled (if that's what you call playing to a winning ruck - as far as hitouts go) ... they need to figure out how to clear the ball.

To be fair, it's a very mediocre midfield.

[Joffa Burns]

Internally, his ruckwork has been considered a concern.

I'd never particularly noticed Marshall's actual ruckwork as an issue to be honest. But Brendan Lade spoke about it at a Coaching Conference that he and Ratten presented at.

So Brendan Lade & Brett Ratten publicly stated Rowan Marshalls ruck work is a concern, hence the recruitment of Paddy Ryder.

If this is fact as you write those two gentlemen need to learn some etiquette, or perhaps you need to be more literal in your interpretation.

Whilst Marshalls centre bounce tap-work is clearly his major weakness and needs development, I would argue strongly he would beat all bar the premier ruckman (Gawn, Grundy & Goldstein) around the ground in ruck contests when it becomes a one on one show of strength.

he he very adapt at maneuvering his man away and the grab and kick from ball ups around the ground and competent at boundary throw ins.

Yes Ryder is far superior at the centre bounce but if that is your total bases on judging a ruck then so be it.

Yes St Kilda were crap last year and I'm yet to be convinced anything has changed as yet and that Ryders superior centre bounce work is not significantly devalued by the reduction in Marshalls around the ground work as a ruck and and extra mid not to mention his enthusiasm and physical presence. Marshall was not a good player in a weak team, he was widely acknowledged as a rising star of the competition not just of the club.

Lastly why take a league rising star ruck and change him to a forward and replace him with a veteran who is years past his best? Makes little sense to me. Get Ryder to work with him at training if he adds so much value.

[freely]

Gresham is a player capable of lifting when the team needs a winner because he longs to be that guy. Unfortunately, we've bought in all these supposedly great players so nobody's looking to him. And he's ego-driven, so he needs someone to be watching or nothing's going to happen. I don't know how you fix that - but a good coach might have the answer. His kicking is not worse than Jack Steven (yeah, I know) or dare I say Rob Harvey.

[Joffa Burns]

From watching the game on TV it appeared in the 1st quarter that Grundy was absolutely slaughtering Marshall, whereas Ryder was jumping over the top of him on occasions and could at least compete.

Ryder was beating Grundy to the point he actually infringed at every contest there after to beat Ryder.

Let me guess, the Umpires then cheated at the request of the AFL and Ed Maguire against Ryder and the Saints and this is how the umps & AFL (on top of their scheduling cheating) ensured Collingwood victory

[SAINT-LEE]

Just to confirm, I dont think Marshall or Ryder are rubbish, bit I'm damn concerned with our ruck game plan.

It seems Marshalls effectiveness has diminished...why? New role, a "known" entity to other clubs now, game plan, confidence....what is it?

[Ghost Like]

My only other contribution / observation to this is that those who liken Ryder's contribution to Longer's contribution are doing Paddy a massive disservice.

I'll be slightly facetious and say Ryder has already accumulated more possessions and taps to advantage / nil all, than Billy did for his Saintly career.

I'll be surprised if those within the Club put the blame of our insipid performance at the feet of the Marshall / Ryder combo.

[Shaggy]

My only other contribution / observation to this is that those who liken Ryder's contribution to Longer's contribution are doing Paddy a massive disservice.

I'll be slightly facetious and say Ryder has already accumulated more possessions and taps to advantage / nil all, than Billy did for his Saintly career.

I'll be surprised if those within the Club put the blame of our insipid performance at the feet of the Marshall / Ryder combo.

No one is blaming our performances on the rucks.

But last year about this time we had:

AFL 2019: Rowan Marshall has been the league’s best player since Round 11 - https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-20 ... ed27f84b4b

Rowan is now back to his 2018 form when he was support ruck to Hickey.

[Ghost Like]

My only other contribution / observation to this is that those who liken Ryder's contribution to Longer's contribution are doing Paddy a massive disservice.

I'll be slightly facetious and say Ryder has already accumulated more possessions and taps to advantage / nil all, than Billy did for his Saintly career.

I'll be surprised if those within the Club put the blame of our insipid performance at the feet of the Marshall / Ryder combo.

No one is blaming our performances on the rucks.

But last year about this time we had:

AFL 2019: Rowan Marshall has been the league’s best player since Round 11 - https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-20 ... ed27f84b4b

Rowan is now back to his 2018 form when he was support ruck to Hickey.

I was only going by the title of the thread, my mistake. I should have posted in the "What midfielders?" or "Panicked or Poor" or "Soft or Uninterested" threads.

Very true about Marshall's 2019, it was a revelation, I took great satisfaction from it. My thinking is that if he was genuinely the player to give our mids first use or at least neutralise centre bounces I'm sure he'd be at every centre bounce. He's not or certainly not yet. You can go on last year, I'll go on last week.

[takeaway]

My only other contribution / observation to this is that those who liken Ryder's contribution to Longer's contribution are doing Paddy a massive disservice.

I'll be slightly facetious and say Ryder has already accumulated more possessions and taps to advantage / nil all, than Billy did for his Saintly career.

I'll be surprised if those within the Club put the blame of our insipid performance at the feet of the Marshall / Ryder combo.

I think you are doing Longer a bit of a disservice re ruck taps. If he was nothing else, he did pretty well at the hit outs. In 2017, third in the AFL for average hit outs, also well up there in 2015. His average for his career was higher than Roma's best year, 2019, and much better than Ryders averages. Possessions, of course, another story. Just sayin.

[Ghost Like]

My only other contribution / observation to this is that those who liken Ryder's contribution to Longer's contribution are doing Paddy a massive disservice.

I'll be slightly facetious and say Ryder has already accumulated more possessions and taps to advantage / nil all, than Billy did for his Saintly career.

I'll be surprised if those within the Club put the blame of our insipid performance at the feet of the Marshall / Ryder combo.

I think you are doing Longer a bit of a disservice re ruck taps. If he was nothing else, he did pretty well at the hit outs. In 2017, third in the AFL for average hit outs, also well up there in 2015. His average for his career was higher than Roma's best year, 2019, and much better than Ryders averages. Possessions, of course, another story. Just sayin.

You are spot on takeaway. My apologies to Billy. It appears it was more than a bit of a disservice. You did make me research the relative comparisons when you place Ryder, Longer, Marshall & Grundy head to head.

Longer broke even with Grundy in Hit Outs but smashed around the ground (1 game comparison)

Ryder has held his own against Grundy in 7 matches. Grundy shades him on most stats except goals. 5 to 2 in Ryder's favour.

Ryder holds the choccies against Longer in all categories, quite comfortably in the 4 games.

I'll ignore the Marshall comparisons due to the infancy of his actual ruck career.

It makes for interesting reading. Thanks for pulling me up.

finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare is a great tool.

[Harves Man]

From watching the game on TV it appeared in the 1st quarter that Grundy was absolutely slaughtering Marshall, whereas Ryder was jumping over the top of him on occasions and could at least compete.

Ryder was beating Grundy to the point he actually infringed at every contest there after to beat Ryder.

Let me guess, the Umpires then cheated at the request of the AFL and Ed Maguire against Ryder and the Saints and this is how the umps & AFL (on top of their scheduling cheating) ensured Collingwood victory

I've got to be honest, Joffa - generally speaking, I like your posts and your angles/points of view about our players, game plans and also your observations of where our new coaching staff are taking our team. I just feel that, sometimes, you are being a bit unkind to Curly - he is a Saint Kilda fanatic, the equal of any other, in my humble opinion.

[Joffa Burns]

From watching the game on TV it appeared in the 1st quarter that Grundy was absolutely slaughtering Marshall, whereas Ryder was jumping over the top of him on occasions and could at least compete.

Ryder was beating Grundy to the point he actually infringed at every contest there after to beat Ryder.

Let me guess, the Umpires then cheated at the request of the AFL and Ed Maguire against Ryder and the Saints and this is how the umps & AFL (on top of their scheduling cheating) ensured Collingwood victory

I've got to be honest, Joffa - generally speaking, I like your posts and your angles/points of view about our players, game plans and also your observations of where our new coaching staff are taking our team. I just feel that, sometimes, you are being a bit unkind to Curly - he is a Saint Kilda fanatic, the equal of any other, in my humble opinion.

I take your point Harves Man and thanks for sharing.

If I am wrong I am happy to apologise to Curly, but I remain convinced he/she is taking the piss and winding up the posters on this forum.

[CURLY]

From watching the game on TV it appeared in the 1st quarter that Grundy was absolutely slaughtering Marshall, whereas Ryder was jumping over the top of him on occasions and could at least compete.

Ryder was beating Grundy to the point he actually infringed at every contest there after to beat Ryder.

Let me guess, the Umpires then cheated at the request of the AFL and Ed Maguire against Ryder and the Saints and this is how the umps & AFL (on top of their scheduling cheating) ensured Collingwood victory

His tactics are borderline at best and realistically he should have been penalized more . His intrusion over the center line to block is against the rules most weeks.

[Harves Man]

From watching the game on TV it appeared in the 1st quarter that Grundy was absolutely slaughtering Marshall, whereas Ryder was jumping over the top of him on occasions and could at least compete.

Ryder was beating Grundy to the point he actually infringed at every contest there after to beat Ryder.

Let me guess, the Umpires then cheated at the request of the AFL and Ed Maguire against Ryder and the Saints and this is how the umps & AFL (on top of their scheduling cheating) ensured Collingwood victory

I've got to be honest, Joffa - generally speaking, I like your posts and your angles/points of view about our players, game plans and also your observations of where our new coaching staff are taking our team. I just feel that, sometimes, you are being a bit unkind to Curly - he is a Saint Kilda fanatic, the equal of any other, in my humble opinion.

I take your point Harves Man and thanks for sharing.

If I am wrong I am happy to apologise to Curly, but I remain convinced he/she is taking the piss and winding up the posters on this forum.

Oh, right - I honestly didn't realise that you perceive his posts in that way.