Grant Thomas

[Scollop]

You’re worse than some of the nuff nuffs.

You want to heap praise on a bloke who takes over and inherits 2 ready made teams who have already played in prelims, and you want to give credit to ONE bloke for just falling over the line in a prelim in 2009 but it’s somehow NOT ok to also make him accountable for the bleeding obvious mistakes in the Grand Final

I’ve never had hindsight bias and I’ve always been critical of Tossco since he set foot at our club

We had the cattle to bring home silverware. The cattle did what they were told. Ross’s game plan failed when it mattered most and you can’t defend a 1-2 goal lead for the entire second half (it’s hard enough to do it for 2 minutes of football). You need to score and we failed to do that.

He needed to see what was unfolding in 2009. The players needed a coach with the courage not to be afraid of losing the McLellan cup. Ross needed to be brave enough to risk losing a few games from round 15 onwards and because he’s a follower and not an innovator, he copied the coaches from years past. ‘Don’t flirt with form’… ‘Play your best players’ if they’re fit and their mood metre is high!! It was such an obvious thing to do to ensure that his star players understood what was ahead. Don’t worry too much about Rounds 16-20.

I’m not saying we would have lost matches if he started resting his stars and giving more opportunities to the whole playing squad a lot earlier. On the contrary. The young blokes were hungry and desperate to secure a spot and they proved worthy when we beat the reigning premiers from 2008 in Round 19. He was an amateur and more like an apprentice senior coach, rather than the super coach all the sycophants thought he was. If he planned to win a Grand Final instead of playing it week by week, we may not have had as many injured blokes or players cooked during the finals.

[Teflon]

I knew watching that at half time we had not taken our chances and it would bite - it did
Don’t compare a 6 goal lead under an air conditioned roof at Etihad to a blustery freezing wet MCG where, had we taken our chances, a 5/6 goal cone back was extremely unlikely


Still though....was at least nice to make it to a GF.....

So we would have been 5-6 goals up at half time if we kicked straight...Are you sure?

Is that 5 to 6 goals guaranteed or could it be maybe 3-4 guaranteed?

Basically...All of your fairy stories belong in a Furphy ad.

Furphy like those make believe, made up myths and legends

Did you ALSO want them to blow the whistle at half time or in your tale would you settle for the 3rd quarter?

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2 ... 90926.html

A game needed to be won in the second half and Rossy made the gullible believe that it was the players bad kicking in the first half that cost us. What about the fact we didn't score a single goal in that last quarter! Well played super coach

The legend of the coach that got us into a GF...what a croc!!

Everyone knows about players being passengers in a game. Well, what about dear ol Rossy. What a passenger of a coach.

What a legend with his 19 home and away wins and his McLelland Trophy

https://www.lbbonline.com/news/furphy-a ... hinkerbell

I’m in fairy land and you think Ross tricked the world into believing players didn’t execute on the day as the reason we lost????? Odd..,
That’s not Ross’s view - that’s most people who watched the games views
Oh....and I’d take 19-0 a GF appearance and a McCleland trophy over “GTs The Streak” video anyday ...

[Teflon]

You’re worse than some of the nuff nuffs

You want to heap praise on a bloke who takes over and inherits 2 ready made teams who have already played in prelims, and you want to give credit to ONE bloke for just falling over the line in a prelim in 2009 but it’s somehow NOT ok to also make him accountable for the bleeding obvious mistakes in the Grand Final

I’ve never had hindsight bias and I’ve always been critical of Tossco since he set foot at our club

No your captain hindsight who makes it up as he goes along - don’t recall you bagging Lyon on here saying he couldn’t coach when we’re 19-0???? But you’re full of your own bath water now....after the fact
No one has ever said Lyon didn’t make mistakes and shouldn’t be accountable - what a stupid thing to post..of course he should as should Grant , Alves and all those who have come before
But spare me your revisionist rubbish as to Lyons coaching abilities cause it’s well documented by majority of our players in the media (who may know just a tad more than you) that he was an exceptional coach that’s why he’s still headhunted today
Not so Grant....

[saynta]

Headhunted today? I don't think so.

There were/are people on the selection committees at both the filth and the brownbaggers who would never select the Tosser in a pink fit.

[Scollop]

No your captain hindsight who makes it up as he goes along - don’t recall you bagging Lyon on here saying he couldn’t coach when we’re 19-0????

While you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final.

You have to be a supremely confident person with a fair bit of inner strength to tell your troops 2 months before finals that they will win the Grand Final. That’s what he should have done but he was still a novice at the caper.

The problem is, he doubted himself and he doubted whether he could coach us to a win. Hoping it’ll happen and playing week to week without that definite picture in your mind about how you will CONTROL how it happens are two totally different things. I bet you he didn’t have the wisdom (or the balls) to outline the plan and the message to the players

Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away

The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon

A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational

[saynta]

No your captain hindsight who makes it up as he goes along - don’t recall you bagging Lyon on here saying he couldn’t coach when we’re 19-0????

While you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final

Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away

The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon

A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational

[Wayne42]

[Teflon]

No your captain hindsight who makes it up as he goes along - don’t recall you bagging Lyon on here saying he couldn’t coach when we’re 19-0????

While you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final.

You have to be a supremely confident person with a fair bit of inner strength to tell your troops 2 months before finals that they will win the Grand Final. That’s what he should have done but he was still a novice at the caper.

The problem is, he doubted himself and he doubted whether he could coach us to a win. Hoping it’ll happen and playing week to week without that definite picture in your mind about how you will CONTROL how it happens are two totally different things. I bet you he didn’t have the wisdom (or the balls) to outline the plan and the message to the players

Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away

The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon

A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational

I’ve read some dribble on here but this is up there
Do you even read what you type??
You’re suddenly telling us all your inside Lyons head pre 09 GF and you know what he was/wasn’t thinking ??
That’s some deluded weird shyte right there...but kinda funny at the same time...
While you were busy at home watching your “GT streak DVD” and playing hide your sausage no doubt ..Lyon was at least getting us into a GFs (see what I did there??? More than 1!!) ....must’ve been a master stroke cause you had us finished and just “knew” we weren’t going to win it weeks out!!! Although again captain hindsight....I don’t recall you on here telling us all that????
Do give us all next weeks Tatts numbers Nostradamus this’ll be fun

[Teflon]

No your captain hindsight who makes it up as he goes along - don’t recall you bagging Lyon on here saying he couldn’t coach when we’re 19-0????

While you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final

Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away

The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon

A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational

[Teflon]

Headhunted today? I don't think so.

There were/are people on the selection committees at both the filth and the brownbaggers who would never select the Tosser in a pink fit.

They certainly ain’t ringing your love child GT

[Wayne42]

[skeptic]

No your captain hindsight who makes it up as he goes along - don’t recall you bagging Lyon on here saying he couldn’t coach when we’re 19-0????

While you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final.

You have to be a supremely confident person with a fair bit of inner strength to tell your troops 2 months before finals that they will win the Grand Final. That’s what he should have done but he was still a novice at the caper.

The problem is, he doubted himself and he doubted whether he could coach us to a win. Hoping it’ll happen and playing week to week without that definite picture in your mind about how you will CONTROL how it happens are two totally different things. I bet you he didn’t have the wisdom (or the balls) to outline the plan and the message to the players

Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away

The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon

A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational

Perhaps there’s a bit to be said here about the wrestling company WCW.

Compared to the the WWF (at the time) which was the institution of many eras, WCW was the loser B-Program that could never really compete and never turn a profit.

This changed in 1996 when two out of contract WWF stars in Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, our of nowhere in a pre-internet era, began suddenly appearing on WCW programming... known by fans by their character names Razor Ramon and Diesel, ppl were convinced initially that they had been sent by the rival network to destroy the company and then people thought maybe it was a cross promotional thing.

Things came to a head in the Bash at the Beach PPV in 1996 PPV where those two wrestlers dubbed The Outsiders challenged three of WCW’s best to a match. The good guys in Sting, Lex Luger and The Machoman Randy Savage answered the call but in response to questions of whether it would be a fair fight... The Outsiders revealed that they had a mystery third man that would come in only if needed.

Who was the third man? The biggest question in American pop culture that year.

At the PPV, the ultimate good guy in Hulk Hogan who had been off TV for months genuinely shocked the world by coming out and betraying WCW and if you think this sounds like it’s nothing or hyperbole... it really wasn’t. Check it out on YouTube... young kids in tears ripped off their Hulk Hogan T-shirts and the crowd pelted the ring in garbage as Hogan told the fans to suck it for taking him for granted as he joined the New World Order of wrestling.

Now this story/angle catapulted WCW to the big stage... in 1996, they turned over their first profit and and a profit of several million followed in 1997, which was close to the biggest year in wrestling.

The good fortune continued and peaked in 1998 when WCW more or less made a couple $100k every time they went out the door. Here’s the thing though... beneath the surface of the year where they broke all records, things were problematic

The company president Eric Bischoff was less hands on as he was fight AOL Time Warner executives who wanted to make the show less risk’ey and more family friendly

His reduced influence saw a culture emerge amongst the top stars who increasingly wanted either not work as hard or protect their reputations by not cleanly losing... the result, matches frequently ended with predictable betrayals and disqualifications... more so then that, continuity dropped, non-sensical stories started and ended abruptly and the product suffered. More so... a lot of the big stars just left or disappeared for extended periods

Also... in addition to to the above, injuries to key talent took their toll, a drug/alcohol culture swept through the place and fed up with everything... a lot of the really promising talent just upped and quit.

By mid-2000, WCW was gone. It went under and this company that 1.5 years earlier was grossing in $100-200 million annually was sold to its competitor for less then $50k.


The point of this story... not that it’s hard to figure out however, is that the demise of company didn’t come because from 1999 onwards frustrated fans voted with their remotes and feet... it came in the most successful period of all, when WCW was enjoying all the success in the world. In 1998, yeah they were getting the results... but they had unaddressed problem after unaddressed problem that saw them put out on crappy show and event after another, after another

To me... that’s what the St.Kilda FC was in 2010
Yeah even with Riewoldt down for 10 weeks we were winning far more then we lost but we weren’t really playing that well and the go to players to get us over the line were our seasoned superstars... Hayes, Goddard, Dal, Monty, Fisher with great seasons from Kosi and Milne as well and perhaps Gwilt as the surprising emergent.

But... an absolute plethora of players stagnated and were way down on form... Gram looked barely fit all season, King and Gardiner were shadow of themselves..., Ray was done on his first season with us, Baker and Blake were decent but getting down, Schneider and Jones were good but not as good the year before towards the end
And more notably Eddy played a bit, Dempster got some games despite being really terrible (not yet the player he would be), McQualter was playing really really poor football (and his non dropping was sending me insane)... Brett Peake played most games and was so so...

Who wasn’t getting games for us... or at least wasn’t the focus of development that they should have been... Steven, Armitage, Lynch and Stanley... not to mention that McEvoy played a bit but wasn’t used smartly. Hutchins never even made it off the rookie list.

We’d pissed Luke Ball off for nothing... Hudghton too went over to the enemy (very costly)
Our big recruit in Lovett was gone barely into the pre-season... Jesse Smith never played a game IIRC

And our drafting saw Nick Winmar, Hayne, Pattison, Johnson, Smith, Cahill, Archer, Simpkin, Miles, McGrath

The problems for that year were easily visible and prominent for anyone and everyone that was objectively looking to see. Now RL may not be at fault for all of these... but he had a lot of control and his hand was all a lot of this and he didn’t address any of it.
Injuries played their part but Geary, Steven, Dempster and McEvoy improved a bit the year after RL left


Long winded but I just don’t see the smooth operator here that ppl worship - what is the argument beyond he had a great list

[Teflon]

No your captain hindsight who makes it up as he goes along - don’t recall you bagging Lyon on here saying he couldn’t coach when we’re 19-0????

While you were saying ‘yippee’ with home and away wins at round 15/16, some of us who weren’t captain brown nose sycophant sheep were worried that we may have peaked too early and that Tossco was not planning on winning the Grand Final.

You have to be a supremely confident person with a fair bit of inner strength to tell your troops 2 months before finals that they will win the Grand Final. That’s what he should have done but he was still a novice at the caper.

The problem is, he doubted himself and he doubted whether he could coach us to a win. Hoping it’ll happen and playing week to week without that definite picture in your mind about how you will CONTROL how it happens are two totally different things. I bet you he didn’t have the wisdom (or the balls) to outline the plan and the message to the players

Yes I know you were super excited at the prospect of us making the Grand Final, but let’s look at HOW we got over the line against the Dogs in the prelim in 09 and compare that with how we smashed them in home and away

The world according to Garp…sorry the World according to Teflon

A world where the only reality is whether someone was posting here on Saintsational

Perhaps there’s a bit to be said here about the wrestling company WCW.

Compared to the the WWF (at the time) which was the institution of many eras, WCW was the loser B-Program that could never really compete and never turn a profit.

This changed in 1996 when two out of contract WWF stars in Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, our of nowhere in a pre-internet era, began suddenly appearing on WCW programming... known by fans by their character names Razor Ramon and Diesel, ppl were convinced initially that they had been sent by the rival network to destroy the company and then people thought maybe it was a cross promotional thing.

Things came to a head in the Bash at the Beach PPV in 1996 PPV where those two wrestlers dubbed The Outsiders challenged three of WCW’s best to a match. The good guys in Sting, Lex Luger and The Machoman Randy Savage answered the call but in response to questions of whether it would be a fair fight... The Outsiders revealed that they had a mystery third man that would come in only if needed.

Who was the third man? The biggest question in American pop culture that year.

At the PPV, the ultimate good guy in Hulk Hogan who had been off TV for months genuinely shocked the world by coming out and betraying WCW and if you think this sounds like it’s nothing or hyperbole... it really wasn’t. Check it out on YouTube... young kids in tears ripped off their Hulk Hogan T-shirts and the crowd pelted the ring in garbage as Hogan told the fans to suck it for taking him for granted as he joined the New World Order of wrestling.

Now this story/angle catapulted WCW to the big stage... in 1996, they turned over their first profit and and a profit of several million followed in 1997, which was close to the biggest year in wrestling.

The good fortune continued and peaked in 1998 when WCW more or less made a couple $100k every time they went out the door. Here’s the thing though... beneath the surface of the year where they broke all records, things were problematic

The company president Eric Bischoff was less hands on as he was fight AOL Time Warner executives who wanted to make the show less risk’ey and more family friendly

His reduced influence saw a culture emerge amongst the top stars who increasingly wanted either not work as hard or protect their reputations by not cleanly losing... the result, matches frequently ended with predictable betrayals and disqualifications... more so then that, continuity dropped, non-sensical stories started and ended abruptly and the product suffered. More so... a lot of the big stars just left or disappeared for extended periods

Also... in addition to to the above, injuries to key talent took their toll, a drug/alcohol culture swept through the place and fed up with everything... a lot of the really promising talent just upped and quit.

By mid-2000, WCW was gone. It went under and this company that 1.5 years earlier was grossing in $100-200 million annually was sold to its competitor for less then $50k.


The point of this story... not that it’s hard to figure out however, is that the demise of company didn’t come because from 1999 onwards frustrated fans voted with their remotes and feet... it came in the most successful period of all, when WCW was enjoying all the success in the world. In 1998, yeah they were getting the results... but they had unaddressed problem after unaddressed problem that saw them put out on crappy show and event after another, after another

To me... that’s what the St.Kilda FC was in 2010
Yeah even with Riewoldt down for 10 weeks we were winning far more then we lost but we weren’t really playing that well and the go to players to get us over the line were our seasoned superstars... Hayes, Goddard, Dal, Monty, Fisher with great seasons from Kosi and Milne as well and perhaps Gwilt as the surprising emergent.

But... an absolute plethora of players stagnated and were way down on form... Gram looked barely fit all season, King and Gardiner were shadow of themselves..., Ray was done on his first season with us, Baker and Blake were decent but getting down, Schneider and Jones were good but not as good the year before towards the end
And more notably Eddy played a bit, Dempster got some games despite being really terrible (not yet the player he would be), McQualter was playing really really poor football (and his non dropping was sending me insane)... Brett Peake played most games and was so so...

Who wasn’t getting games for us... or at least wasn’t the focus of development that they should have been... Steven, Armitage, Lynch and Stanley... not to mention that McEvoy played a bit but wasn’t used smartly. Hutchins never even made it off the rookie list.

We’d pissed Luke Ball off for nothing... Hudghton too went over to the enemy (very costly)
Our big recruit in Lovett was gone barely into the pre-season... Jesse Smith never played a game IIRC

And our drafting saw Nick Winmar, Hayne, Pattison, Johnson, Smith, Cahill, Archer, Simpkin, Miles, McGrath

The problems for that year were easily visible and prominent for anyone and everyone that was objectively looking to see. Now RL may not be at fault for all of these... but he had a lot of control and his hand was all a lot of this and he didn’t address any of it.
Injuries played their part but Geary, Steven, Dempster and McEvoy improved a bit the year after RL left


Long winded but I just don’t see the smooth operator here that ppl worship - what is the argument beyond he had a great list

Look can’t go through all of that and still not sure of your point but it’s pretty simple
2010 we’d been up since 04
Ross Lyon didn’t develop the list (Thomas only got lucky with high end draft picks off the back of the disgraceful Watson era...so not sure of “man love” for GT the leader of men..)
Aside from all of that and all the failings in players you’ve just pointed out in 2010 - we made the GF (I agree probably didn’t deserve to) and but for a missed bounce could’ve won it.
You keep pointing out all the failings of Lyon and give zero credit for what was obviously (and has been repeatedly acknowledged as so by OUR SENIOR PlAYERS) a superb coaching effort with an ability to absolutely get the best out of a side in decline.
Once again with a better list, better blend of mature stars and superb kids coming through your mate “GT” simply couldn’t even get us there.
Lyons not a “smooth operator” he’s a difficult, awkward narcissist but the guy demands and has proven time and again he can coach and get a side to buy in to his style.
GTs a narcissist and complete control freak who didn’t know when his time was up (after suggesting he was there purely as caretaker..)
To suggest Lyon just “had a good list” is utter garbage not backed up by FACTS or the players who were there at the time.
I think I’d trust their version over keyboard warriors on SS who clearly can’t see past their own hatred to acknowledge a 65% win record at 2 clubs isn’t bad going.
And I certainly don’t get the love for GT and again, noting not 1 AFL club has EVER enquired about him as a potential coach ...,I suspect I’m not alone on that front.

[Scollop]

You’re suddenly telling us all your inside Lyons head pre 09 GF and you know what he was/wasn’t thinking ??


Do give us all next weeks Tatts numbers Nostradamus this’ll be fun

You should listen to your hero sometime. Ross has opened up about the doubts he had prior to Grand Finals at St Kilda. Have a listen ...early on in the first 2.20 minutes

https://www.dicksonfilms.com.au/the-challenge

Tossco wasn’t even confident of winning in 2010 ‘because Collingwood were so strong’!! He knew the Saints would ‘give super effort’ but ...here’s his doubts coming out ...he ‘wasn’t sure we’d get close based on form’ How’s that for inner belief and strength? It stands to reason that if he had doubts at his second GF he most probably had just as many in his first

Here's a man who has a team full of champions and stars of the game and they've gone back to back for a GF in 09 and a GF in 2010 and he's doubting whether they're good enough...or is he really saying "I doubted myself and my ability to get the job done." A great coach finds vulnerabilities in his opponent. Unfortunately supercoach Rossy usually just went with plan A

He had cause to have doubts. Remember this pearler from Ross after the GF in 09 when he'd ordered his boys to kick long to the talls on a wet track? ''Maybe we were a little bit bomby late...''

And regarding Nostradamus and the Tatts numbers...very witty Teffers...another original beauty right there

[saintly]

You’re worse than some of the nuff nuffs.

You want to heap praise on a bloke who takes over and inherits 2 ready made teams who have already played in prelims, and you want to give credit to ONE bloke for just falling over the line in a prelim in 2009 but it’s somehow NOT ok to also make him accountable for the bleeding obvious mistakes in the Grand Final

I’ve never had hindsight bias and I’ve always been critical of Tossco since he set foot at our club

We had the cattle to bring home silverware. The cattle did what they were told. Ross’s game plan failed when it mattered most and you can’t defend a 1-2 goal lead for the entire second half (it’s hard enough to do it for 2 minutes of football). You need to score and we failed to do that.

He needed to see what was unfolding in 2009. The players needed a coach with the courage not to be afraid of losing the McLellan cup. Ross needed to be brave enough to risk losing a few games from round 15 onwards and because he’s a follower and not an innovator, he copied the coaches from years past. ‘Don’t flirt with form’… ‘Play your best players’ if they’re fit and their mood metre is high!! It was such an obvious thing to do to ensure that his star players understood what was ahead. Don’t worry too much about Rounds 16-20.

I’m not saying we would have lost matches if he started resting his stars and giving more opportunities to the whole playing squad a lot earlier. On the contrary. The young blokes were hungry and desperate to secure a spot and they proved worthy when we beat the reigning premiers from 2008 in Round 19. He was an amateur and more like an apprentice senior coach, rather than the super coach all the sycophants thought he was. If he planned to win a Grand Final instead of playing it week by week, we may not have had as many injured blokes or players cooked during the finals.

I remember that year. half way through that year. a good coach got sacked. and there were alot of opinions that said the Saints and Ross should get him to help out the coaching for the rest of the year. he came out and said, nup don't need him. he only rested players once during that season. when the saints went to Tassie in round 21 i think. i was always concerned they had the ssame 25 - 26 players..

that is not revisionist thinking.

[Scollop]

…. a superb coaching effort with an ability to absolutely get the best out of a side in decline.

To suggest Lyon just “had a good list” is utter garbage

Without all the fancy adjectives and drama, let’s breakdown what you wrote

Lenny Hayes was the oldest of the core group, but he was an All Australian in 2010, so don’t think he was in decline. He won his third TB Medal in 2012. He came second in his last year which was 2014

Dal Santo was All Australian in 2011. He was one of the best mids in the game during his time with us and went on to play over 300 games. He only just turned 26 in 2010.

Goddard was 25 at the end of 2010 and also considered one of the best skilled and most versatile mids in his prime. An athlete with passion and heart and courage and ruthlessness ( we had a core group who had already played in prelims and these blokes were now seasoned finals campaigners). The leadership group could have coached themselves.

Nick Riewoldt was only 27/28. Sam Fisher same age as Roo. Milney was All Australian in 2011 and 2012.

We had half a dozen players who were All Australians, ranked highly amongst their peers, were durable and featured regularly in the top 5 players in our Best and Fairest counts. Most of our stars were at their peak in 2010…physically, but they needed someone to assist them to stay at their peak mentally

Obviously Ross couldn’t do that in 2011 and rather than motivate and inspire his troops, he dumped a truckload of bulldust on them and painted them all as washed up (and I’m not talking about his speech after the elimination final. He’d already scarred them and lost belief in them in April of 2011… the links https://www.smh.com.au/sport/st-kildas- ... 1d9j1.html
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-11/ ... ts/2621908 )

[cwrcyn]

1. He worked his players into the ground with a punishing game plan

2. He interfered with our recruiting, making decisions for the short term that were a long term disaster (see Ken Sheldon and Stan Alves for the same disastrous interference in recruiting)

3. He failed to play and develop youngsters who could have added some spark to a tired group

4. When he'd bled them dry and worn them out, he bailed out for huge dollars at another club, and you can't tell me that that was a snap decision at the end of the season

5. His ultra-defensive style robbed us fans of watching entertaining football from a highly talented group of players.

[Scollop]

After the 1st attempt at a flag you’d be thinking ‘o.k he’s a twat and he made some blues but he’s a novice in only his third year as senior coach’ and he was stubborn with Luke Ball sitting on the pine, but they had some bad luck and oh well, maybe next year

After the 2nd attempt you realise there is a pattern developing where there’s an unhealthy reliance on a few stars and too little in the way of development of young talent and perhaps the defensive game plan might need some tweeking

After the 3rd attempt, only the gullible and the twats and those into myths and fairy tales still believe he’s a great coach

[asiu]

Classic !!

that induced laughter

[saynta]

After the 1st attempt at a flag you’d be thinking ‘o.k he’s a twat and he made some blues but he’s a novice in only his third year as senior coach’ and he was stubborn with Luke Ball sitting on the pine, but they had some bad luck and oh well, maybe next year

After the 2nd attempt you realise there is a pattern developing where there’s an unhealthy reliance on a few stars and too little in the way of development of young talent and perhaps the defensive game plan might need some tweeking

After the 3rd attempt, only the gullible and the twats and those into myths and fairy tales still believe he’s a great coach

Well said. He was never a great coach and he f***ed us up for years. Cost us kids too, the prick.

[takeaway]

…. a superb coaching effort with an ability to absolutely get the best out of a side in decline.

To suggest Lyon just “had a good list” is utter garbage

Without all the fancy adjectives and drama, let’s breakdown what you wrote

Lenny Hayes was the oldest of the core group, but he was an All Australian in 2010, so don’t think he was in decline. He won his third TB Medal in 2012. He came second in his last year which was 2014

Dal Santo was All Australian in 2011. He was one of the best mids in the game during his time with us and went on to play over 300 games. He only just turned 26 in 2010.

Goddard was 25 at the end of 2010 and also considered one of the best skilled and most versatile mids in his prime. An athlete with passion and heart and courage and ruthlessness ( we had a core group who had already played in prelims and these blokes were now seasoned finals campaigners). The leadership group could have coached themselves.

Nick Riewoldt was only 27/28. Sam Fisher same age as Roo. Milney was All Australian in 2011 and 2012.

We had half a dozen players who were All Australians, ranked highly amongst their peers, were durable and featured regularly in the top 5 players in our Best and Fairest counts. Most of our stars were at their peak in 2010…physically, but they needed someone to assist them to stay at their peak mentally

Obviously Ross couldn’t do that in 2011 and rather than motivate and inspire his troops, he dumped a truckload of bulldust on them and painted them all as washed up (and I’m not talking about his speech after the elimination final. He’d already scarred them and lost belief in them in April of 2011… the links https://www.smh.com.au/sport/st-kildas- ... 1d9j1.html
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-11/ ... ts/2621908 )

Lost belief in them in April? After 2 searing finals campaigns and not quite getting the flag, it is true the Saints did not look good in 2011, only winning 4 of the first 12, but then the coach who had "lost belief" in the players, and the players for some reason, rallied to win 8 of the next 10 to reach the finals, again. Great effort by the players, and coach "to absolutely get the best out of a side in decline". So much for lost belief.

The GT vs RL debate seems to regenerate regularly, with lots of fiction written, but in the end what will endure are the actual facts, ie win/loss ratio and Finals/GFs played. No comparison.

Let's hope Ratts can get his win/loss up a bit (actually a fair bit), play in a couple of GFs, and in future years debate can occur on here based on 2 professional coaches on a more equitable footing, ie Ratts vs RL.

[B.M]

Not sure why we couldn’t continue to push for top 4 in 2011-12-13

Reality is

We should’ve had

Blake, Kosi, Bakes, Max. Gardy, King over that period

Go out of that side

But the ins should’ve been

Armo, Steven, McEvoy, Stanley, Lynch,

2014 you would probably see Jones, Hayes, Fisher, Mile, Schneider, Ball exit
Making it tougher
Replaced by Ross, Newnes and Co. so in decline

Rebuild should have started then

And a full rebuild when Joey, Roo, BJ, Dal, Gilbert, Dempster etc

The King Bros should have been the centre piece of the rebuild.

Anyways, can only ponder what might’ve been!!!

[skeptic]

I never got the RL v GT debate

Seems as though you can’t have a discussion about RL’s coaching ability without comparisons made to GT’s reign

Seems as though being better than GT is a big part of the argument

[The Barometer]

Not sure why we couldn’t continue to push for top 4 in 2011-12-13

Reality is

We should’ve had

Blake, Kosi, Bakes, Max. Gardy, King over that period

Go out of that side

But the ins should’ve been

Armo, Steven, McEvoy, Stanley, Lynch,

2014 you would probably see Jones, Hayes, Fisher, Mile, Schneider, Ball exit
Making it tougher
Replaced by Ross, Newnes and Co. so in decline

Rebuild should have started then

And a full rebuild when Joey, Roo, BJ, Dal, Gilbert, Dempster etc

The King Bros should have been the centre piece of the rebuild.

Anyways, can only ponder what might’ve been!!!

Completely agree we should have been still in it in 11, 12, 13. not only the ins you mention - we should have had more ins but poor draft picks and average top up players robbed opportunities for young players for us to have a sustained tilt. The core list of stars we had was top notch and we should have been so much better at rejuvenating around them.

[Scollop]

Anyways, can only ponder what might’ve been!!!

They were all in a trance

The messiah had spoken

If he said: 'It's the end of an era' then that is the only truth

His word shalt not be questioned or disobeyed

Unfortunately some of the players and leadership group were among the disciples

It's funny how their perception of reality was very different to what could have been, if they weren't so drunk on kool aid