The Seb Ross discussions

[CQ SAINT]

Might it say more about Steel’s abilities than Sebs inabilities?

I don’t think myself or Saynta or Any other rational poster are not suggesting Steele had a better year in 2020 and is at this point in time a better player! He’s obviously a gun!!

That doesn’t mean that Seb can’t play, on the contrary his record speaks for itself!

You don’t become a leader of an AFL club, the best player (at a certain point in time) at an AFL club, a probable 200 game player at an AFL club
If you cannot play!!!

I’m still not sure why you don’t understand this... it’s like arguing that Shane Watson couldn’t play cricket because Michael Clarke was a better bat... that still doesn’t alter the fact that in 2011 & 2012 Watson won 2 Allan Border Medals

I've tried not to compare Seb to anyone you keep doing that. You want to bring his B&F's into it. I dont rate him or his B&F's but there is no doubt he has them.

My focus has been his skill deficiency.
You and Saynta seem to believe he doesn't have one and all evidence leads to him being a champion. You are wrong. Its very well documented, debated and his article and change of role doesn't look good for your opinion or the confidence of the football department who have been charged with fixing the team, our following and our club.
He got a couple of cheap B&F's and 30 or so Brownlow votes, so what, I don't care. Our coaches instructed him to play that way, FFS, the umpires are idiots and his 7 best on grounds in the Brownlow, doesn't impress me.
My arguments have been consistent for 3 years. If Ross is our best mid, we are f***ed.
If he tags onto our improvement as a run-with, who can bring others into the game, awesome.
If he leaves, $700k will buy a pretty good f****** kick.
IMHO he is a good B grade footballer who got lucky in a totally f***ed list with totally inept recruiters and horrible coaches. Thats not his fault, I dont hate him, I just don't rate him and believe you over-rate him.
I dont understand how you can't see that.
Whatever happens this year, I have a feeling that none of us will change our minds.

[To the top]

The conversation the Coach had with Steele was for a reason

When I have referred on here to St Kilda adding “polish” to our midfield, from a discussion after Steele showing what he was delivering and prior to the finals, that statement came from where it came from - no name was mentioned obviously but also obviously now Crouch (not Smith who, if the St Kilda Coach has said the word would have been at St Kilda - so Smith did not suit the profile despite the closeness of the friendship)

What that conversation said was that we needed to (further after Hill and Jones and Steele) improve our midfield to be consistent challengers

And in that process, ahead of Crouch and dismissing the travails of Hannebery and Gresham, we have added resource

And we are still looking

So the order is changing

And that is the positive - because every other Club will improve also

What is the impact of that changing in order?

To accommodate the introductions and the improvements who gets left behind - and to what degree?

It seems acknowledged that Ross was transitioned to a “run with” resource

And what really staggers me is that retaining possession is beneficial (attributed to Ross on this thread)

I know what Ratten’s views are and what his IP is founded on - not retaining possession but the next and the next and the next, so multiple possessions forward hence the game plan

There is expectation on every player to be where they need to be

And the Coach audits and reviews accordingly

It really is a game of chess with numbers of people on their laptops awaiting the Coach seeking confirmations from them - then there is the review process which is exhausting

[CQ SAINT]

Might it say more about Steel’s abilities than Sebs inabilities?

I don’t think myself or Saynta or Any other rational poster are not suggesting Steele had a better year in 2020 and is at this point in time a better player! He’s obviously a gun!!

That doesn’t mean that Seb can’t play, on the contrary his record speaks for itself!

You don’t become a leader of an AFL club, the best player (at a certain point in time) at an AFL club, a probable 200 game player at an AFL club
If you cannot play!!!

I’m still not sure why you don’t understand this... it’s like arguing that Shane Watson couldn’t play cricket because Michael Clarke was a better bat... that still doesn’t alter the fact that in 2011 & 2012 Watson won 2 Allan Border Medals

BM.

I believe you gave Seb a rating earlier. I can't find it so please, do you think Seb is an A grader or a B grader? Simple question really.

[B.M]

Simple answer? Hard to answer, but I rated him a B+ earlier in the thread for his overall career

But it depends on the year

On this year C Grade - not his best
2018/2019 Generally B Grade with the occasional A Grade game
2017 definitely A Grade his output was outstanding and as such was named in the AA squad. That puts him in the top 10% of players that season.
2016 C grade with a number of B Grade or better games

So yeah
I would consider him B Grade or slightly better on average

But I don’t carry on as if he can’t play, or that his deserved accolades are meaningless when he’s achieved quite a deal more than many others!
If he was a rubbish AFL player - he would not be playing much would he... but the fact is, he hasn’t played reserves since 2015
He certainly wouldn’t be voted by his peers into the leadership group?!
He wouldn’t be given the VC by the coaches

I reckon Brett Ratten would laugh at suggestions that Seb was only good because we were bad

In the words of the great Ron Burgundy
“That doesn’t make sense”

[shanegrambeau]

Simple answer? Hard to answer, but I rated him a B+ earlier in the thread for his overall career

But it depends on the year

On this year C Grade - not his best
2018/2019 Generally B Grade with the occasional A Grade game
2017 definitely A Grade his output was outstanding and as such was named in the AA squad. That puts him in the top 10% of players that season.
2016 C grade with a number of B Grade or better games

So yeah
I would consider him B Grade or slightly better on average

But I don’t carry on as if he can’t play, or that his deserved accolades are meaningless when he’s achieved quite a deal more than many others!
If he was a rubbish AFL player - he would not be playing much would he... but the fact is, he hasn’t played reserves since 2015
He certainly wouldn’t be voted by his peers into the leadership group?!
He wouldn’t be given the VC by the coaches

I reckon Brett Ratten would laugh at suggestions that Seb was only good because we were bad

In the words of the great Ron Burgundy
“That doesn’t make sense”

Wouldn't it be fascinating to see what Ratts saw and really thought in his own eyes? I would love to know what he REALLY thinks abouut all our players. Of course, we can only speculate. Selections and draggings might help.

[B.M]

You didn’t answer my question

How can Seb be a poor footballer if he’s been named BOG in St Kilda victories?

How can an ineffective player be judged the most effective player on the ground in a StK win?

Did he just get lucky? (More than a few times)

[B.M]

Ratts picked him every game, (even straight after he recovered from injury) and generally as a starting centre square midfielder so I guess that says something?

[CQ SAINT]

Simple answer? Hard to answer, but I rated him a B+ earlier in the thread for his overall career

But it depends on the year

On this year C Grade - not his best
2018/2019 Generally B Grade with the occasional A Grade game
2017 definitely A Grade his output was outstanding and as such was named in the AA squad. That puts him in the top 10% of players that season.
2016 C grade with a number of B Grade or better games

So yeah
I would consider him B Grade or slightly better on average

But I don’t carry on as if he can’t play, or that his deserved accolades are meaningless when he’s achieved quite a deal more than many others!
If he was a rubbish AFL player - he would not be playing much would he... but the fact is, he hasn’t played reserves since 2015
He certainly wouldn’t be voted by his peers into the leadership group?!
He wouldn’t be given the VC by the coaches

I reckon Brett Ratten would laugh at suggestions that Seb was only good because we were bad

In the words of the great Ron Burgundy
“That doesn’t make sense”

I didn't expect a simple answer but you got there. Thanks. Great answer. I'm glad you don't gush about how good he is either.

Ratts probably rated him C grade this year too.

I'm a little more generous and less pedantic. I rate him b grade over all.

I guess the measure of a champion is consistency, then there is usually very little to debate.

I go on record as saying he is the best B grader St.Kilda has ever had. How's that?

[B.M]

We’ve had a few good B Graders, and the thing is... all of them could seriously play

Baker, Blake, Voss, Gilbert, Hamill, Membrey, Koschitzke among others

I’d be pretty happy to be in that company

And it could be argued Ross (due to his 2017) has reached a higher ceiling

[CQ SAINT]

Ratts picked him every game, (even straight after he recovered from injury) and generally as a starting centre square midfielder so I guess that says something?

It says he is better than Bytel and Dunstan and with Gresham and Hanners out, more useful than players who dont play midfield, even in a C grade year. On $700k, you'd give him every chance to prove his value, wouldnt you?

[The_Dud]

He’ll be picked before any injuries because he’s a good player.

Yes, we were beaten by Richmond. We did kick 6:13 but what if we kicked 13:6 instead. Was it Sebs fault we lost, or were there worse players??

Question
Has Seb never played well in a victory by StKilda?

Good question.

Looking at our best wins last season (Dogs x2, Tigers, Crows, Port, Swans, GWS) I would say he was in the best in only one of those games, the round 2 win over the Dogs.

And also looking at the 3 very disappointing losses (NM, Freo, Dees) which we let slip that should have been wins, he didn’t stand up as an experienced leader of the club in any of those games.

My whole point about Seb is, St Kilda performed better this year with him in a lesser role because he is not a starting mid in a good side, though he can still play a part.

[CQ SAINT]

You didn’t answer my question

How can Seb be a poor footballer if he’s been named BOG in St Kilda victories?

How can an ineffective player be judged the most effective player on the ground in a StK win?

Did he just get lucky? (More than a few times)

I think I've answered this but not sure you are talking to me.
I'm fond of a lot of players, I've never called Ross a poor footballer, I've repeatedly said he is a poor user of the ball. He is not alone but he stands out to me, so based on this I dont rate him.
I've said I reckon I've seen 15 outstanding games from him, by outstanding I mean, much better than his overall rating which for me is B grade. That's about 10 percent A grade performances.
Now, he is a leader, so he is respected. He is an elite runner, a good size, deceptively quick, has been durable and is reportedly one of the most professional in his training and match prep.
Given all of that, there doesn't seem to be a lot holding him back from the next step. That is, of course, unless you rate skill over all those other fantastic attributes. He has bumped his head on the A grade ceiling but is just a consistent B grader with A grade athletic qualities and C grade skill levels, which he obviously works hard to improve and sometimes he gets it all right.
So I dont rate him. I'd be happy to cash in his contract at the end of this year and use the $700k for a better footballer. Add Dunstans money and let's get a gun.

[Scollop]

Is it really the hardest postion on the ground? In which era did this claim begin and who was responsible for giving rise to the claim?

And what facts are there to back it up?

There is a debate right there on it's own don't you think?

This thread would be better off if you turned the sound down and if you put on a blindfold

[B.M]

Has Seb’s wage been made public?

Btw
Hannas (who’s reportedly on 800k) played in the finals

[B.M]

Wouldn’t mind playing 15 outstanding AFL games

Would you?

[CQ SAINT]

Has Seb’s wage been made public?

Btw
Hannas (who’s reportedly on 800k) played in the finals

Yes. He and Billing made the top 50, covid adjusted. Hanners wasn't on the list and is on more like $550.

[CQ SAINT]

Wouldn’t mind playing 15 outstanding AFL games

Would you?

Is that a question related to me st 50 or if I was a club champion?

Yes and then no, I'd be embarrassed.

[CQ SAINT]

Has Seb’s wage been made public?

Btw
Hannas (who’s reportedly on 800k) played in the finals

Sorry wrong. Billing is top 50. I heard Seb got a $2.1m extension in 2017 until 21. Fair enough too. Must have been heavily front ended.

[B.M]

If you’re right - and I’ll guarantee you’re not

2018-2021 is 4 years

2.1/4 does not = 700k

It equals 525k which represents a bit more value
Than
Hill 900
Hannebery 800
Billings 700

Bargain
Considering after signing that contract 2 of the seasons he actually performed

[CQ SAINT]

If you’re right - and I’ll guarantee you’re not

2018-2021 is 4 years

2.1/4 does not = 700k

It equals 525k which represents a bit more value
Than
Hill 900
Hannebery 800
Billings 700

Bargain
Considering after signing that contract 2 of the seasons he actually performed

He was contracted for 18. Extended for 3, that makes it 2021. I was told the deal was $2.1m, he had just won the 2017 B&F. Ill guarantee everything I said is exactly what I was told. I was at the B&F and was told that there.

Saints on the 2020 top 100 $$$ they figures are the full amount. 28% to be refunded to the AFL.

Hill 875-925
Billings 700-750
Gresham 650-700
Carlisle 600-650
Hanners 600-650
Howard 600-650

Your $525 for Seb may be right. Making the $2.1 also right. Or he got front ended like Hanners and Robbo did.

[minneapolis]

Just for clarity, so you don't think I'm making up stuff or reinventing history on Seb, as Saynta would have you believe, here are some words from the horses mouth.
We all know what happened to Sebs stats in 2020.
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/02/14/ ... eficiency/

Yep , from the horse's mouth

"“I sat down with Brendon Lade, we worked out a way I could be more efficient for the team by playing within my realms. I’m a good short kick and it’s beneficial for the team a lot of the time to keep the ball in possession."

In other words, stop kicking long desperate bombs to the opposition. Words matter.

[minneapolis]

Simple answer? Hard to answer, but I rated him a B+ earlier in the thread for his overall career

But it depends on the year

On this year C Grade - not his best
2018/2019 Generally B Grade with the occasional A Grade game
2017 definitely A Grade his output was outstanding and as such was named in the AA squad. That puts him in the top 10% of players that season.
2016 C grade with a number of B Grade or better games

So yeah
I would consider him B Grade or slightly better on average

But I don’t carry on as if he can’t play, or that his deserved accolades are meaningless when he’s achieved quite a deal more than many others!
If he was a rubbish AFL player - he would not be playing much would he... but the fact is, he hasn’t played reserves since 2015
He certainly wouldn’t be voted by his peers into the leadership group?!
He wouldn’t be given the VC by the coaches

I reckon Brett Ratten would laugh at suggestions that Seb was only good because we were bad

In the words of the great Ron Burgundy
“That doesn’t make sense”

Wouldn't it be fascinating to see what Ratts saw and really thought in his own eyes? I would love to know what he REALLY thinks about all our players. Of course, we can only speculate. Selections and draggings might help.

I've often thought about this.

It would be gold-plated diamond-encrusted fascinating to have a truthful permanently-off-the-record discussion with Ratts about our players.

Like in a fishing boat or around a campfire or something like that.

I think the only way I would get that would be if I married him. Hmmm....we are both already married. Plan B...

[The Billings Method]

Simple answer? Hard to answer, but I rated him a B+ earlier in the thread for his overall career

But it depends on the year

On this year C Grade - not his best
2018/2019 Generally B Grade with the occasional A Grade game
2017 definitely A Grade his output was outstanding and as such was named in the AA squad. That puts him in the top 10% of players that season.
2016 C grade with a number of B Grade or better games

So yeah
I would consider him B Grade or slightly better on average

But I don’t carry on as if he can’t play, or that his deserved accolades are meaningless when he’s achieved quite a deal more than many others!
If he was a rubbish AFL player - he would not be playing much would he... but the fact is, he hasn’t played reserves since 2015
He certainly wouldn’t be voted by his peers into the leadership group?!
He wouldn’t be given the VC by the coaches

I reckon Brett Ratten would laugh at suggestions that Seb was only good because we were bad

In the words of the great Ron Burgundy
“That doesn’t make sense”

Solid and logical assessment, BM. Extra points for slipping in a relevant quote from Ron Burgundy. Well played, sir.

[saynta]

The dud wrote

"Then there are the likes of Hill, Billings, Coff and Long who can also roam around the ground and are ahead of Seb in those positions too."



IMHFO the dud has gone from unknowing to plainly ridiculous.

[Sanctorum]

Given the length, depth and passion of this discussion about Seb Ross he has obviously taken over from Jarryn Geary as the whipping boy - I sure hope he doesn't become the next captain as that will only compound the debate further...

On the subject of whipping boys, there are a number of other players that are in the category of "star" under-performers, such as Jack Billing, Jake Carlisle and Bradley Hill - if that trio alone can lift their game in 2021 to elite levels, plus have Dan Hannebery fully fit for the year, then St Kilda can become the best team in the comp!