The Modern Game

[rodgerfox]

Rodge...interesting..you are the only Saints fan Ive ever heard say that we'd have struggled v Brisbane the next week. They had just come a very tough brutal ame agasint Geelong the previous week, played in the pouring rain..and had to return to Brissy them come back. A number of injuries..I reckon they were ripe for the picking..as Port found.

Port were a hardened, regular top 4 team.

We were a team of juniors who had only had 1 finals win as a team - against an injury ravaged Sydney at the MCG.

I tell you, if we were to beat Brisbane had we made it - it would have had to have been the greatest coaching feat in world sport almost.

[markp]

So GT was nearly almost the greatest coach in the world ever.....

[Saints43]

Apology accepted. Im still amazed that your the only poster who STILL doesnt get the sentiment of the thread - once more with feeling....its a view. Its not right/wrong.....the world isnt black/white....but good luck with that line of reasoning

I think you'll find it was really an attempt to make yourself feel better about berating all and sundry when they pointed out to you that Ross was arseing it up during 2007. He's admitted it and moved on. Why can't you?

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Rodge...interesting..you are the only Saints fan Ive ever heard say that we'd have struggled v Brisbane the next week. They had just come a very tough brutal ame agasint Geelong the previous week, played in the pouring rain..and had to return to Brissy them come back. A number of injuries..I reckon they were ripe for the picking..as Port found.

Port were a hardened, regular top 4 team.

We were a team of juniors who had only had 1 finals win as a team - against an injury ravaged Sydney at the MCG.

I tell you, if we were to beat Brisbane had we made it - it would have had to have been the greatest coaching feat in world sport almost.

agreed...it wouldnt be too far fetched that we would have been deer in headlights...

the power had been the form side of the previous 3-4 seasons...

the lions would have punched on with us and we wouldnt know what to do

hamill gehrig and powell would have only gone so far..you cant cover 15 other players who are young and easily over-awed...

which we were in round 21 and the qf of 2004 sgainst the lions

[Teflon]

It what Lyon does with and around our run that will really dictate his success, both in the W/L column, and as an innovator.

I should note that I don't really need Lyon to be innovative for me to consider him good - he can put together the most boring bits of the boring bits and if it creates wins, I'll call him a good coach. IMO, the biggest change the Saints need to rejoin the true contender is to be better at clearances... since 2005 it's gone from being an enourmous strength to a weakness. If the Saints can break even and win the clearances against good midfields, they'll be incredibly tough to crack.

Yep...the clearance point about it now being a weakness for us when we were so strong is spot on. This is clearly where we are being hurt in 2 ways:

1. Our second mid depth isnt the quality of other sides
2. Our guns have gone from being "super talented" to very good players.....NOT consistently top line in the mould of a Judd/Ablett/Bartel/Mitchell...its where Lyon wants a Dal Santo to ply his trade cause he knows he can.........Goddard/Ball would be a dream to add to him...

As you say SHOULD we break even/win in this area I suspect the whole "slow ball movement" discussion may look a little different - amazing what "first hands" translate to in other facets of the game.

I too am not interested in Lyon being "first" or "lucky" in devising an approach to improve us.....I could care less on how he goes about it to be frank - I just want a coach who can SEE the problems in a clear football sense and who CAN put in place an approach to rectify the weaknesses. I think moves to improve our fitness, our defensive player depth and hopefully in 2009 our midfield depth/quality are a step in the right direction from Lyon. I do hope the fwd 50 system and entry to it is also flagged for overhaul to make us far more potent.

Great to talk footy.

[BigMart]

Disagree about our Mids depth....

We have 8 very good players.....either AA's, B&F winners, Runner - ups, ex-captains and very high DP's rotating through there......throw away line....we are as deep as anyone except Geelong, who we have a better fwd line than......

[evertonfc]

Kosi is not a forward.

Never has been, never will be.

I hate to say this...I think you are right on. I so badly want him to be a forward.

But in a way, I still think we need to play him there. I'm very keen on King and Gardiner in the middle - they've looked great in pre-season.

We need a third forward to help Milne and Riewoldt...and even if it's not his best spot, he needs a spot, and his output can still be very valuble if he crashes packs and takes a good defender.

[Teflon]

Apology accepted. Im still amazed that your the only poster who STILL doesnt get the sentiment of the thread - once more with feeling....its a view. Its not right/wrong.....the world isnt black/white....but good luck with that line of reasoning

I think you'll find it was really an attempt to make yourself feel better about berating all and sundry when they pointed out to you that Ross was arseing it up during 2007. He's admitted it and moved on. Why can't you?

"all and sundry pointing to Ross's @rse in 2007"?

Ive not read that so far at all. I think "all and sundry" is code for.........you?

Ive read your constant bleatings about how its an accident we now play a more defensive game style under Lyon?....thats been funny..

Look...you're getting old. We all are - its all so "yesterday' why cant you accept he is our coach, he can coach and offer your support instead of snide attacks?

If you dont like him fair enough - spell out what hes doing wrong? where you want him to focus and why? ADD to the footy discussion with something remotely less emotive and at least marginally based on some semblance of logic - dont just continue to b!tch and moan and offer up nothing.

That is ofcourse......unless...your really are Dodge in a dress....

[saintsRrising]

Look osi may not a "champion" forward.....but he is no "champion" ruck either.

However what Kosi is a good tall utilty capable as playing as a tall forward or as a 2nd ruckman to back up and rest King (or Gardiner) including more asa follower.

He adds versatilty to our 22 as can play a number of roles.

And while he may not be a "champion" key forward...in his capacity he is still the second best tall forward at the Saints behinf only Roo. As a tall forward he is also better than what some clubs as their key forward.


having the right forward structure is important to any team...and for this reason I would anticpate that Ksi will play as a key forward for a lot of 2009.

[Teflon]

Disagree about our Mids depth....

We have 8 very good players.....either AA's, B&F winners, Runner - ups, ex-captains and very high DP's rotating through there......throw away line....we are as deep as anyone except Geelong, who we have a better fwd line than......

I think your going off paper based accolades from seasons gone or "very high draft pick/potential" again..

Our "top liners"

1. Hayes - gun. Only consistent one we have IMHO (and in saying that doesnt kick goals)

2. Ball - recovering gun - is not there yet with any consistency but is on his way and certainly not where his output can be.

3. Dal Santo - I think being dropped last year may have helped - still not what he was and needs to break a tag.

4 Montagna - Really improved mid but by no means top line - can disappear.

5 Goddard - Largely untried as a mid

6 Gram - see Goddard

7 Fisher - see Gram

8 - Jones, Eddy, Geary, Mqualter - Jones/Mqualter I have doubts. Eddy/Geary look solid at best. Ray?...lets hope.

I dont include Bakers et al - I dont believe thats realistic coming back from his injuries at this time - love to be proved wrong.

Its ok to talk Captains/AA/Draft picks etc - the last few seasons for whatever reason tell me our midfield aint what it was and we still dont know what impact losing Harvey will have on that yet.

No point talking mids on reputations from floating half back roles either - you need to do it consistently out of the centre for mine.

We go ok - but to win the flag "ok" may not be enough - you gotta beat the best and right now thats Geelong IMHO followed by Hawks. I think even the Dogs mids give us a decent run right now..

I'll be very interested to see how our mids go against Carltons/Richmonds this year as I do think they will be much improved (and so can we lets remember).

Just my view ofcourse "throw away" as you please.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Kosi is not a forward.

Never has been, never will be.

I hate to say this...I think you are right on. I so badly want him to be a forward.

But in a way, I still think we need to play him there. I'm very keen on King and Gardiner in the middle - they've looked great in pre-season.

We need a third forward to help Milne and Riewoldt...and even if it's not his best spot, he needs a spot, and his output can still be very valuble if he crashes packs and takes a good defender.

name me a third forward that kicks 30-35 goals a year????

they are hard to come by apart from williams....

[rodgerfox]

I just want a coach who can SEE the problems in a clear football sense and who CAN put in place an approach to rectify the weaknesses.

So why do you adore Lyon so much? I can't see how any weaknesses are being improved. He may be attempting to address them, but it's not working so far.

[Saints43]

ADD to the footy discussion with something remotely less emotive and at least marginally based on some semblance of logic - dont just continue to b!tch and moan and offer up nothing.

Would you say that 'If playing defensively is effective in 2009 and we started being more defensive in 2007 then we may be ahead of the pack and the coach is to be commended regardless of whether this (not yet proved) advantage was as a result of planning' is adding to the footy discussion then you are proving something I already knew. You are a fairly easy marker when it comes to footy discussions, coaching and your own humour.

That is ofcourse......unless...your really are Dodge in a dress....

I can understand your amusement. Hilarious.

[MC Gusto]

I just want a coach who can SEE the problems in a clear football sense and who CAN put in place an approach to rectify the weaknesses.

So why do you adore Lyon so much? I can't see how any weaknesses are being improved. He may be attempting to address them, but it's not working so far.

Mate we have improved year on year since he started. but don't let that get in the way of your theory

watch us fly this year roger. watch us fly...i guess if we do it will be all the players doing according to a peanut like you

[Saints43]

I just want a coach who can SEE the problems in a clear football sense and who CAN put in place an approach to rectify the weaknesses.

So why do you adore Lyon so much? I can't see how any weaknesses are being improved. He may be attempting to address them, but it's not working so far.

Mate we have improved year on year since he started. but don't let that get in the way of your theory

watch us fly this year roger. watch us fly...i guess if we do it will be all the players doing according to a peanut like you

To be fair there is a pretty good list to work with. I reckon there'd only be two or three coaches who wouldn't swap.

We have improved every year but we started from a fairly ordinary standard. I would think that if consistency of performance is further addressed this year then we will be in for a pretty good season results-wise.

[rodgerfox]

Mate we have improved year on year since he started. but don't let that get in the way of your theory

Improved? In what sense?

We're still soft.
We're still slow.
We still have no depth.
We still rely on one player.
We still have injury prone players.
We still have a leaky defence.
We still can't score.
We're still mentally fragile.
We still have no good kids coming through.

These are all areas that were picked out as issues. And they still are issues.

Any improvement is very, very minor.

[SainterK]

Mate we have improved year on year since he started. but don't let that get in the way of your theory

Improved? In what sense?

We're still soft.
We're still slow.
We still have no depth.
We still rely on one player.
We still have injury prone players.
We still have a leaky defence.
We still can't score.
We're still mentally fragile.
We still have no good kids coming through.

These are all areas that were picked out as issues. And they still are issues.

Any improvement is very, very minor.

Our ladder position?

[rodgerfox]

Our ladder position?

I think everyone knows my thoughts on using ladder position as a guage to your performance.

[SainterK]

Our ladder position?

I think everyone knows my thoughts on using ladder position as a guage to your performance.

I was just pointing out it had improved

[MC Gusto]

Mate we have improved year on year since he started. but don't let that get in the way of your theory

Improved? In what sense? ladder

We're still soft. baker lenny rooey maxy ball etc would all have something to say about thatWe're still slow. trying to address that with additions of ray etc but for mine speed is a trend that will faze out. speed is not the be all and end all and you will find the best players are rarely the fastestWe still have no depth i would argue that our best 30 players is looking a lot stronger since ross began.We still rely on one player. assume you mean roo? maybe you should express this to the likes of BJ, Lenny, Ball, Gram, Fish etc. let them know we only have one decent player that we rely on. in fact why don't youWe still have injury prone players. well i believe we are addressing this with Mission etc.
We still have a leaky defence. yet to be seen but once again we are improving and according to the stats of the preseason games which i know don't mean much but our defence looks to be a lot more solid
We still can't score.
We're still mentally fragile. your opinion
We still have no good kids coming through. rubbish. how would you know. oh i see you know more than the selectors
These are all areas that were picked out as issues. And they still are issues.

Any improvement is very, very minor.

So for me these are all signs of great improvement.

[Teflon]

ADD to the footy discussion with something remotely less emotive and at least marginally based on some semblance of logic - dont just continue to b!tch and moan and offer up nothing.

Would you say that 'If playing defensively is effective in 2009 and we started being more defensive in 2007 then we may be ahead of the pack and the coach is to be commended regardless of whether this (not yet proved) advantage was as a result of planning' is adding to the footy discussion then you are proving something I already knew. You are a fairly easy marker when it comes to footy discussions, coaching and your own humour.

But arent you telling us constantly we arent playing the way we did in 07? Isnt then, applying your simplistic views of the world, this further proof the coach can adapt his game plan to footy changes - isnt that a good thing for a coach to be able to do? and IF that comes off in 09 shouldnt he be commended for seeing the change and adapting to it ???or are you still stuck in the basic "kick it long bomb" game style of your previous icon?

Regardless, would you say that IF we do play a defensive game plan in 09 and we do this better than most teams cause weve been focussing on this "style" for some time then isnt that cause for some applause to the coach?

Or is everything Lyon does under your logic an accident? AND IF we again make top 4....then thats also "just an accident"???

I mean seriously - you truly believe the guy just bumbles along making it up as he goes with no foresight or planning????

You really need to get over your hatred of Lyon or seek help, or both.

That is ofcourse......unless...your really are Dodge in a dress....

I can understand your amusement. Hilarious.

Im glad you understand my ammusement...considering your still clearly struggling to grasp the threads basic proposition when many others have (and have either responded with some football logic/reason) and have moved on.....well done...

Once again, we get a very "Rodg" post from you...full of glib one liners but nothing new.

But then...why would I expect anything less?

[Teflon]

I just want a coach who can SEE the problems in a clear football sense and who CAN put in place an approach to rectify the weaknesses.

So why do you adore Lyon so much? I can't see how any weaknesses are being improved. He may be attempting to address them, but it's not working so far.

Mate we have improved year on year since he started. but don't let that get in the way of your theory

watch us fly this year roger. watch us fly...i guess if we do it will be all the players doing according to a peanut like you

To be fair there is a pretty good list to work with. I reckon there'd only be two or three coaches who wouldn't swap.

We have improved every year but we started from a fairly ordinary standard. I would think that if consistency of performance is further addressed this year then we will be in for a pretty good season results-wise.

ahhh...now we get to it...the list is as good as 04...

sure...

[Saints43]

To be fair there is a pretty good list to work with. I reckon there'd only be two or three coaches who wouldn't swap.

ahhh...now we get to it...the list is as good as 04...

sure...

I didn't say anything about the '04 list.

Is what I wrote incorrect?

[Mr Magic]

To be fair there is a pretty good list to work with. I reckon there'd only be two or three coaches who wouldn't swap.

ahhh...now we get to it...the list is as good as 04...

sure...

I didn't say anything about the '04 list.

Is what I wrote incorrect?

In your opinion which 2 or 3 coaches wouldn't want to swap lists?

[Saints43]

To be fair there is a pretty good list to work with. I reckon there'd only be two or three coaches who wouldn't swap.

ahhh...now we get to it...the list is as good as 04...

sure...

I didn't say anything about the '04 list.

Is what I wrote incorrect?

In your opinion which 2 or 3 coaches wouldn't want to swap lists?

IMO Geelong and Hawthorn would definitely stick with theirs.
Some would argue that the Footscray list would be better than ours - not me, though.

Other than those two or three I think that any other coach in the comp would take our mix of players over their own lists.