Is Lyon mark 2 the right fit for the saints

[Teflon]

A lot of average players play in premierships

It’s not a measure of individual greatness at all

The best 6 players of any team is better than the bottom 6 of a premiership team.

That was one of the problems in 2009 and 2010. Our bottom 6 were pretty ordinary and still our genius of a coach wouldn't play Armo, Stevens or Geary.

Subsequent years proved that all three were better than average footballers.

So you think we should’ve stuck with Brett???
Spot it out Frank Galbally fir Christ’s sake having your own opinion can’t be that hard..,
What would you have done if you were running the club???

[saynta]

A lot of average players play in premierships

It’s not a measure of individual greatness at all

The best 6 players of any team is better than the bottom 6 of a premiership team.

That was one of the problems in 2009 and 2010. Our bottom 6 were pretty ordinary and still our genius of a coach wouldn't play Armo, Stevens or Geary.

Subsequent years proved that all three were better than average footballers.

So you think we should’ve stuck with Brett???
Spot it out Frank Galbally fir Christ’s sake having your own opinion can’t be that hard..,
What would you have done if you were running the club???

It is my own f****** opinion, Einstein. Can't you read or is it your difficulty in understanding the written word that is the problem.

A word of advice. Check your spellings before hitting the send button FFS.

[Teflon]

A lot of average players play in premierships

It’s not a measure of individual greatness at all

The best 6 players of any team is better than the bottom 6 of a premiership team.

That was one of the problems in 2009 and 2010. Our bottom 6 were pretty ordinary and still our genius of a coach wouldn't play Armo, Stevens or Geary.

Subsequent years proved that all three were better than average footballers.

So you think we should’ve stuck with Brett???
Spot it out Frank Galbally fir Christ’s sake having your own opinion can’t be that hard..,
What would you have done if you were running the club???

It is my own f****** opinion, Einstein. Can't you read or is it your difficulty in understanding the written word that is the problem.

That’s re-hashed cliched drivel from Lyon badgers in the media
They (you) weren’t bashing at 19-0 in 09
What say you man - fess up would you like the club to have kept Cuddles and not taken Lyon is that it?????

[saynta]

A lot of average players play in premierships

It’s not a measure of individual greatness at all

The best 6 players of any team is better than the bottom 6 of a premiership team.

That was one of the problems in 2009 and 2010. Our bottom 6 were pretty ordinary and still our genius of a coach wouldn't play Armo, Stevens or Geary.

Subsequent years proved that all three were better than average footballers.

So you think we should’ve stuck with Brett???
Spot it out Frank Galbally fir Christ’s sake having your own opinion can’t be that hard..,
What would you have done if you were running the club???

It is my own f****** opinion, Einstein. Can't you read or is it your difficulty in understanding the written word that is the problem.

That’s re-hashed cliched drivel from Lyon badgers in the media
They (you) weren’t bashing at 19-0 in 09
What say you man - fess up would you like the club to have kept Cuddles and not taken Lyon is that it?????

I don't answer questions from posters I despise.

[Teflon]

A lot of average players play in premierships

It’s not a measure of individual greatness at all

The best 6 players of any team is better than the bottom 6 of a premiership team.

That was one of the problems in 2009 and 2010. Our bottom 6 were pretty ordinary and still our genius of a coach wouldn't play Armo, Stevens or Geary.

Subsequent years proved that all three were better than average footballers.

So you think we should’ve stuck with Brett???
Spot it out Frank Galbally fir Christ’s sake having your own opinion can’t be that hard..,
What would you have done if you were running the club???

It is my own f****** opinion, Einstein. Can't you read or is it your difficulty in understanding the written word that is the problem.

That’s re-hashed cliched drivel from Lyon badgers in the media
They (you) weren’t bashing at 19-0 in 09
What say you man - fess up would you like the club to have kept Cuddles and not taken Lyon is that it?????

I don't answer questions from posters I despise.

As I thought
Hasn’t the fortitude to muster an independent thought
Carry on
Lol lol lol etc etc

[The Fireman]

The love is strong here

[saynta]

The love is strong here

[Teflon]

The love is strong here

For Ross?
Yes…except for those who don’t like what the clubs done …but can’t offer an alternative..

[B.M]

Some posters were critical about lack of development at the time

Go back and check

Armo
3 Brownlow votes in R19
13 tackles in R20

In the reserves in R21

Steven
I believe he kicked 3 in the greatest ever H&A game vs the cats

Both should have played the n 09

Dempster and Eddy should not have

[Teflon]

Some posters were critical about lack of development at the time

Go back and check

Armo
3 Brownlow votes in R19
13 tackles in R20

In the reserves in R21

Steven
I believe he kicked 3 in the greatest ever H&A game vs the cats

Both should have played the n 09

Dempster and Eddy should not have

Why you going back through history?
Do you believe the club have the done the right Thi g in removing Brett Ratten and replacing him with Ross Lyon??
It’s a simple question
If not, what is your suggested path forwards for the club?
Please explain.

[Vortex]

Some posters were critical about lack of development at the time

Go back and check

Armo
3 Brownlow votes in R19
13 tackles in R20

In the reserves in R21

Steven
I believe he kicked 3 in the greatest ever H&A game vs the cats

Both should have played the n 09

Dempster and Eddy should not have

Why you going back through history?
Do you believe the club have the done the right Thi g in removing Brett Ratten and replacing him with Ross Lyon??
It’s a simple question
If not, what is your suggested path forwards for the club?
Please explain.

Id keep sacking coaches every 2 years until we win a flag....hang on!

[Teflon]

Some posters were critical about lack of development at the time

Go back and check

Armo
3 Brownlow votes in R19
13 tackles in R20

In the reserves in R21

Steven
I believe he kicked 3 in the greatest ever H&A game vs the cats

Both should have played the n 09

Dempster and Eddy should not have

Why you going back through history?
Do you believe the club have the done the right Thi g in removing Brett Ratten and replacing him with Ross Lyon??
It’s a simple question
If not, what is your suggested path forwards for the club?
Please explain.

Id keep sacking coaches every 2 years until we win a flag....hang on!

There he is….with more “serious questions..”
Lol

[B.M]

Yes, I’d have sacked Ratten after the review indicated that the football department was lacking in certain areas. I also believe Lyon is the best person to take over.

I also wouldn’t have been so stupid as to extend Ratten mid season when there was no need. We were flying, but at that point were we assured to make finals- NO
So why not wait??

That was the embarrassment- and half this forum said it at the time
There was even a poll on it

[saynta]

Some posters were critical about lack of development at the time

Go back and check

Armo
3 Brownlow votes in R19
13 tackles in R20

In the reserves in R21

Steven
I believe he kicked 3 in the greatest ever H&A game vs the cats

Both should have played the n 09

Dempster and Eddy should not have

Someone who knows their football and good young footballers, unlike some sycophant posters I could name but won't. Well said.

Further to your comments, Max should have played before the fluffer who had been on a drip in hospital overnight and Ball should have got more minutes after half time.

Pretty easy for me to see why we lost in 09.

[Vortex]

What were the areas lacking as detailed in the review report?

[shanegrambeau]

Yes, I’d have sacked Ratten after the review indicated that the football department was lacking in certain areas. I also believe Lyon is the best person to take over.

I also wouldn’t have been so stupid as to extend Ratten mid season when there was no need. We were flying, but at that point were we assured to make finals- NO
So why not wait??

That was the embarrassment- and half this forum said it at the time
There was even a poll on it

Dr. Grambeau has already provided a most excellent rationale as to why Mr.Ratten was extended prematurely. And it packs no punches, for it is guilded in brutal cynicism and slick political manunverisms. (The doctor is a bit slippery but assures me that his thinking is good)

Mr.Ratten’s management insisted and pressured St.Kilda Managment for a ‘jump-ahead-and-guarantee-me’ package pre-season. Mr Bassathound put down his pool cue and said, ‘fair enough, whatever Brett’ fully knowing it meant little and for good reason. For it Rattens Managment wants to play aggressive then we acquiesce and retreat… like General Manstein on the Russian front, pull back, re-group.

It’s a brilliant tactic.

The reality is - if I could be frank for a moment - there is definitely a bit of that cynicism involved, but obviously it ain’t that simple. Nevertheless, when people push you, one way to deal with it is to acquiesce rather than protest or bargain. And none of us for a moment think Rattens Managment give a flying about whether or when St Kilda get their next flag. They got other buns to bake.

I don’t know how you lot claim to know how we lost in ‘09.
Luke Ball should have played t seems, according to RTB himself. I thought we lost some games because a 32 yr old Max HOUGHTON - a personal fav, wasn’t on. Maybe RTB only got the gig in the first place cos, GT Falcon insisted that Kosi carry the Ruck against Melbourne in the last game he coached!?

Nobody, including all the RTB selection doubters, would for a moment think the Saints were moving in the right direction after that Essendon game last year!

[B.M]

The findings of the review were released, you can have a read


In a nutshell
Leadership was not strong enough, lack of clarity and too much inconsistency. The footy program was not of elite standard.

[Vortex]

The findings of the review were released, you can have a read


In a nutshell
Leadership was not strong enough, lack of clarity and too much inconsistency. The footy program was not of elite standard.

Yeah I read the review, sorry I meant PR cleansing document.

I'm still not convinced there were grounds for sacking, or put it this way, Bassett's mia culpa in his presser was not expanded on in the report so how do we know anything about what the real issues were.

Personally I think Bassett recognised pressure would come for him Personally because it was very obvious he had fallen asleep at the wheel and needed to do something drastic to deflect attention away from himself.

[samoht]

Teflon, neither scollop or I are arguing that the coach is the only factor in a team's success, and we're not saying that anyone else is arguing that either ... what we're arguing is - it is hard to compare one coach's performance with another coach's performance - even the same coach in different years (19-0 and 0-10). So, it's hard to tease out how they're faring based on w/l percentages, etc. - there's no sense in doing that.

There's obviously other much bigger factors at play.

Injuries is one of these factors - and it's a variable.
We were an 8-3 side in 2022 before injuries ... we're not a bad side.

Singing RL's praises or any head coach's praises is just giving them too much importance.

If we have an injury free run in 2023, St Kilda will do well ... if we suffer long-term injuries to key players (as Collingwood did in Buckley's last year), St Kilda won't do well.
It's as simple as that.

(But, this is where I've praised Lyon ... for getting our soft-tissue injuries under control, after we had a spate of them under GT.
He brings the right people on board - Misson, etc..).

[B.M]

Can a fitness guy control injuries in a ballistic contact sport

Soft tissue injuries occur at the elite level - due to over extension - not lack of fitness.

Nick Riewoldt is the most meticulous preparer I have ever seen in footy - he was pedantic
He tore his hammy off the bone - under Lyon in 2010

[skeptic]

Can a fitness guy control injuries in a ballistic contact sport

Soft tissue injuries occur at the elite level - due to over extension - not lack of fitness.

Nick Riewoldt is the most meticulous preparer I have ever seen in footy - he was pedantic
He tore his hammy off the bone - under Lyon in 2010

It’s a good question.

I’ve always tended to believe that it’s one of those scenarios where whilst one can accept a certain degree of luck being involved… if you do everything right you can maximise the odds of things going on your favour.

Have always loved Lenny Hayes as an example.
Considering the style of game he played and how much he ran… he was remarkably durable over his career. The backstory there was that he was impeccable in his prep. Did all the rehabs (including non-mandatory), diet was meticulous, focused on technique and was so fit, technique didn’t suffer under strain.

Riewoldt was a good example too. The flip side however with the example you posted…
I remember that game. Riewoldt came off the ground with a hamstring strain (or something to that effect). He didn’t look great and should have stayed off but he went through all the fitness testing etc and they deemed him right to come back on.
It was a scenario where if we’d been 5 goals up he would have stayed on the bench. The gamble Le and they lost

[samoht]

Here's an interesting article from 2009 (The Age) ... regarding the soft tissue injuries, an epidemic you could say, that plagued us under GT, and Lyon's focus and approach to try and manage the problem. And the results of Lyon's approach ... after bringing the best people he could find on board.

By Martin Blake May 15, 2009 — 10.00am

"HERE IS a statistic worth pondering. St Kilda has 19 players who have played all seven games this season — the most of any club by a figure of three players.

This for a club which had just three players play every game last season, a team with a recent history of soft tissue epidemics. At the same point in 2008, that number was 11 players. In 2007, it was 12.

Is it mere coincidence that St Kilda seems to have its injury management right at the same time that it has vaulted to the top of the ladder? Hardly.

For all the plaudits handed out to Ross Lyon over St Kilda's playing style this season — a method that began to come together in the last half of the 2008 season — it might well be his fitness and conditioning staff who should be getting the pats on the back.

Get your best team on the park is the mantra of recent premiership teams, and it's hardly complicated.
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With full-back Max Hudghton coming back in the VFL this weekend and ruckman Steven King returning from a two-week break with a hamstring strain, St Kilda will have only three players — all long-termers, including two, Xavier Clarke and Sean Dempster in rehabilitation from knee reconstructions — unavailable for selection. To borrow a phrase, it is a beautiful set of numbers for any coach.

When Lyon took over at St Kilda in 2007 he came to a club that was perceived as having missed its chances because of injury issues. The club had a cluster of players who were habitually hurt: the likes of Justin Koschitzke and Xavier Clarke, and Luke Ball's groin trouble was chronic, to name but a few.

Then Lyon lost his fitness man, Craig Starcevich, over the pre-season and had to find another one. Peter Mulkearns, from Carlton, was the new conditioning coach, but Lyon complained of lack of continuity in what is a precise science.

Four rounds into the 2007 season and his first year as coach Lyon lamented another player going down with a hamstring tear, on this occasion Sam Fisher in a game against Essendon. At the time, teams were averaging about six hamstring injuries per season; St Kilda had already hit its quota a month into the season. He told the media that St Kilda had a major problem that needed to be addressed.

"Everyone laughed when I sat here after an Essendon game, we'd lost another couple with hammies and I said: 'We're missing some meat and potatoes in our program'," the coach recalled this week.

Mulkearns was asked to look into the issue, and one of his first recommendations was for more "squats" in the gym. He and Lyon felt the club had moved away from traditional methods. The players were not strong enough in the legs to cope with the demands of the modern game.

At the start of 2008, there was another significant change. Dave Misson, for seven previous seasons the highly successful conditioning man at Sydney, was moving to Melbourne with his wife, Catherine, who had been appointed principal of Melbourne Girls' Grammar School.

Of course, Lyon knew Misson from his own time as an assistant coach at Sydney under Paul Roos. It coincided with a time when Sydney was accused of being lucky with injuries until close observers realised that the Swans had been "lucky" for four seasons in a row, including two grand final appearances.

"You need to have good management," said Lyon. "Of course there's luck involved, but it can't be just luck."

Instructively, St Kilda's injury management appears to be very Sydney nowadays. When Koschitzke tweaked a hamstring against Fremantle in round four, he sat out the rest of the game, even though he wanted to come back on.

At Sydney, players are instructed to opt out of playing if they feel a "tweak" at training, lest they break down and hurt the team's chances.

St Kilda had experienced a change of administration. The necessarily frugal Rod Butterss regime had gone, replaced by Greg Westaway and a new board promising to spend more in the football department. Lyon put a strong case for more cash to be spent on areas like rehabilitation, where physiotherapist Andrew Wallis was in charge. "We got fitter and stronger," said Lyon this week.

St Kilda immediately increased its football department spending by $1 million. Last year, the second season of Lyon's regime, it spent $14.3 million in the football department — still only eighth in the competition, but several million up on the last year of Grant Thomas' reign (2006).

"We went and got the right people," said Lyon. "The club put the resources and the money (in). The players have duly delivered with their work ethic. We've built strong bodies: strong through the hips, strong through the hammies, and we're seeing that in our contested ball now."

None of which guarantees a premiership, for the race is only in its infancy, and in any case, there is luck involved. But for the moment, St Kilda has found a way to improve in a crucial off-field area.

"We know it's a key indicator," said Lyon. "That's indisputable. If you look at Geelong and Hawthorn and Sydney before that, they had their players available. If you don't have them available … well, Hawthorn's probably a case in point right now."

[Vortex]

Up until Lyon 3.0 returned we were told injuries were not an excuse and it was more a reflection of poor coaching.

However there have been fanboys argue Lyon 2.0 at Freo and his win ratio of 33% in his last 4 years was because of injuries and the success Longmuir enjoyed last season was due to Lyons legacy.

Similarly when Ratten was enjoying a brief moment of success in 2020 it was suggested this was because of the legacy left by Richo however that was flatly rejected.

If Lyon jumps out of the blocks and gets the team into finals this season will any credit be given to Ratten for his legacy?

[The Fireman]

the only legacy i can think of left by Cho and Ratts is one of vanilla footballing failure... ready yourself vortex for the revival.

PS I see you got some xmas gift vouchers for BCF ... some nice new fishing gear. awesome

[samoht]

That's why, Vortex, in order to genuinely seek the truth, we need to first become dispassionate observers ... free ourselves from any prejucided views we may hold.

The truth is the truth ... it's not about winning arguments, or coming up with arguments that support personal views.

Let's be fans of the truth ... first and foremost. My motto.

How can we be a true fan of anyone (GT, Lyon, Ratten, or whoever else), if it means distorting the truth or ignoring/ discounting certain facts and counter-arguments to try and perpetuate our view of them.
That doesn't get you to the truth. ... and we'd only be lying to ourselves.