Hickey, Bruce and Hind

[saynta]

Bruce has been atrocious tonight.

Actually he has been atrocious for most of the games he has played since leaving.

He's a dirty f****** arsehole too. Did you see him push that Tigers face into the turf?

That was his BEST contribution of the game.
It's what every player needs to do.
Dominate your opponents.
Be physical every chance you get.

You don't have to play dirty football. Banger never did,

[saynta]

Bruce played true to form when the heat was on last night - he shat the bed on a couple of marking attempts. Is a head case and the club did the right thing by off loading him.

Maybe we can agree on this one...maybe.

[Joffa Burns]

Bruce played true to form when the heat was on last night - he shat the bed on a couple of marking attempts. Is a head case and the club did the right thing by off loading him.

Bruce is a solid average AFL player, he gave us very good service for the price we paid for him.
He's fit and durable and is a best 18 player in a club that has lost 1 game this season.

He's better than the following KPP or ruck players on our list:

1. 'slips through his fingers'
2. Hunter
3. Carslile (not at his peak but now)
4. Clavarino
5. Joyce
6. Alabakis
7. Battle
Arguable that he is better than King is at this point in time.

We'd be better with him than without him & I'd rather Bruce than Hill & Hannebery and had we not sold the farm for a washed up has-been who'll be lucky to play another game for the club or a player who appears to not care and be s*** frightened of contact we could have comfortably retained him.

He was not and is no gun, but he's better than what we replaced him with.

[samuraisaint]

Bruce played true to form when the heat was on last night - he shat the bed on a couple of marking attempts. Is a head case and the club did the right thing by off loading him.

Bruce is a solid average AFL player, he gave us very good service for the price we paid for him.
He's fit and durable and is a best 18 player in a club that has lost 1 game this season.

He's better than the following KPP or ruck players on our list:

1. 'slips through his fingers'
2. Hunter
3. Carslile (not at his peak but now)
4. Clavarino
5. Joyce
6. Alabakis
7. Battle
Arguable that he is better than King is at this point in time.


He was not and is no gun, but he's better than what we replaced him with.

I agree with 95% of what you have posted except that I think Bruce is a gun. I also think Membrey, King and Battle can all become guns given the correct development, which our players don't currently get, and I think the reason for this is our joke of a reserves team.

Having said all of that, last time I looked our three blokes have all played in a finals win and Bruce hasn't up to date, so they do have that experience now.

[Ghost Like]

B.M., is that at the opposite end of the spectrum for a thread title featuring the names of 3 average ex St Kilda players as if their presence in our side today would somehow transform us?

Hickey & Bruce wanted the greener pastures. Hind was a mistake but certainly not catastrophic.

[magnifisaint]

All average players. Nothing more.

[Scollop]

Swans supporters reckon Hickey is the recruit of the year so far

[Ghost Like]

Swans supporters reckon Hickey is the recruit of the year so far

I think we know how this story ends.

[Scollop]

Miraculous recovery from Tom to play against Pussies after a PCL type injury.

https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/hunted-s ... -c-2724426

Hickey had been tipped to spend six to eight weeks on the sidelines but instead missed just one game.

"He has been unbelievable, the way he has got back in," Swans coach John Longmire said.

[CQ SAINT]

I'm not sure that players going to other clubs and playing better means we can't develop them.
Did Essendon, Footscray and Sydney develop them?

[skeptic]

Hickey is a really interesting one because unlike the others mentioned in this thread... he wasn’t exactly devoid of opportunity with us.

He got a good crack at it and after his somewhat breakout season in 2016, he really lost his sense of aggression and played a very passive style

I think over this era... playing Bruce as a highly ineffective back up ruckman for 2-3 years hurt him because there wasn’t anyone to give him a chop out of the opposition rucks got on top.
He sat with the pressure that if he was getting beaten... it was only going to get worse.

The thing though is that it’s not as if he turned it all around at WCE either. Didn’t watch a lot of him but my impression was that he wasn’t all that different and arguably no better than he was with us

The real mystery here is what’s going on at Sydney to turn him around like this

[skeptic]

I'm not sure that players going to other clubs and playing better means we can't develop them.
Did Essendon, Footscray and Sydney develop them?

Agreed.

I think our sin here is that sometimes we tend to pidgeon hole players into specific roles/positions and lack the flexibility to mix it up when they don’t work.

This for me, is the biggest concern with Ratten as a coach at the moment...
He’s a little prone to trying the same thing over and over because he believes it will work rather than making judgments based on results.

It’s a fine line btw persevering and developing an idea to blind faith

With these players... Hind is the best example of a player that we needed to be more open minded with

The small forward role (3 in the team) is a role that we have persisted with past the point of question

[bigcarl]

Hickey is a really interesting one because unlike the others mentioned in this thread... he wasn’t exactly devoid of opportunity with us.

He got a good crack at it and after his somewhat breakout season in 2016, he really lost his sense of aggression and played a very passive style

I think over this era... playing Bruce as a highly ineffective back up ruckman for 2-3 years hurt him because there wasn’t anyone to give him a chop out of the opposition rucks got on top.
He sat with the pressure that if he was getting beaten... it was only going to get worse.

The thing though is that it’s not as if he turned it all around at WCE either. Didn’t watch a lot of him but my impression was that he wasn’t all that different and arguably no better than he was with us

The real mystery here is what’s going on at Sydney to turn him around like this

Being inexplicably overlooked in favour of Billy Longer after a very good season wouldn’t have helped his confidence.

The other thing, of course, is the old saying that it takes big blokes longer to come on. It’s true in many cases.

Ryder, for example, is just approaching his prime

[CQ SAINT]

Hickey Bruce and Hind were all valued more at other clubs. When you are sitting just below mid ladder for a 3-4 year period and you intend to rebuild or acquire better talent, you have to give to get. Bruce and Hickey were on good cash at St.Kilda but under produced. Sometimes, it is just that simple.
Hind was a cheap rookie and played on the fringe, the Bombers offered more than we wanted to give.

[Ghost Like]

I'm not sure that players going to other clubs and playing better means we can't develop them.
Did Essendon, Footscray and Sydney develop them?

Agreed.

I think our sin here is that sometimes we tend to pidgeon hole players into specific roles/positions and lack the flexibility to mix it up when they don’t work.

This for me, is the biggest concern with Ratten as a coach at the moment...
He’s a little prone to trying the same thing over and over because he believes it will work rather than making judgments based on results.

It’s a fine line btw persevering and developing an idea to blind faith

With these players... Hind is the best example of a player that we needed to be more open minded with

The small forward role (3 in the team) is a role that we have persisted with past the point of question

It is interesting skeptic, a coach will live and die by their beliefs. We can fill a cemetery with our coaches. That said, I'm sure it is process driven and not result driven.

Ratten did not coach Hickey or Bruce. You are correct with Hind though. He did get pigeon holed when his strength was why we selected him, running off half back.

[skeptic]

I'm not sure that players going to other clubs and playing better means we can't develop them.
Did Essendon, Footscray and Sydney develop them?

Agreed.

I think our sin here is that sometimes we tend to pidgeon hole players into specific roles/positions and lack the flexibility to mix it up when they don’t work.

This for me, is the biggest concern with Ratten as a coach at the moment...
He’s a little prone to trying the same thing over and over because he believes it will work rather than making judgments based on results.

It’s a fine line btw persevering and developing an idea to blind faith

With these players... Hind is the best example of a player that we needed to be more open minded with

The small forward role (3 in the team) is a role that we have persisted with past the point of question

It is interesting skeptic, a coach will live and die by their beliefs. We can fill a cemetery with our coaches. That said, I'm sure it is process driven and not result driven.

Ratten did not coach Hickey or Bruce. You are correct with Hind though. He did get pigeon holed when his strength was why we selected him, running off half back.

Agreed. The other consideration is that with Coffield, Clark, Paton, Geary, Webster, Sinclair, Long and the possibility of playing Hill there too... you can make the argument that we simply didn’t see an opening there for him

[The Billings Method]

Paton? Just bad luck. Hill and Hind off halfback. Coff and and Wilkie as interceptors. Dougal and Chip. That's a dream defensive dream team.

[samuraisaint]

The big question for me is about development.
Today, our reserves, the Zebras, who haven't won a game yet (there's only been a couple though) play the Hawks reserves side, which is very inexperienced, given that they had some outs this week, and played five of their multiple premiership players against us last night.
Our younger recruits will play alongside Shaun McKernan, Sam Dunnell, Ben Long, Jake Carlisle, Dean Kent, Paul Hunter, Mason Wood & Luke Dunstan.
I would fully expect that Sandringham win this by the same margin as our seniors did last night.
If we don't win this match today, given the Hawks youth and inexperience, hard questions will need to be asked.

[Ghost Like]

The big question for me is about development.
Today, our reserves, the Zebras, who haven't won a game yet (there's only been a couple though) play the Hawks reserves side, which is very inexperienced, given that they had some outs this week, and played five of their multiple premiership players against us last night.
Our younger recruits will play alongside Shaun McKernan, Sam Dunnell, Ben Long, Jake Carlisle, Dean Kent, Paul Hunter, Mason Wood & Luke Dunstan.
I would fully expect that Sandringham win this by the same margin as our seniors did last night.
If we don't win this match today, given the Hawks youth and inexperience, hard questions will need to be asked.

Really why? Those playing there, besides the likes of Clav & Connolly, should know the repercussions on their careers. Whether Sandi won or lost it explains why those you mentioned are playing at Sandi.

[saynta]

Bruce played true to form when the heat was on last night - he shat the bed on a couple of marking attempts. Is a head case and the club did the right thing by off loading him.

Bruce is a solid average AFL player, he gave us very good service for the price we paid for him.
He's fit and durable and is a best 18 player in a club that has lost 1 game this season.

He's better than the following KPP or ruck players on our list:

1. 'slips through his fingers'
2. Hunter
3. Carslile (not at his peak but now)
4. Clavarino
5. Joyce
6. Alabakis
7. Battle
Arguable that he is better than King is at this point in time.

We'd be better with him than without him & I'd rather Bruce than Hill & Hannebery and had we not sold the farm for a washed up has-been who'll be lucky to play another game for the club or a player who appears to not care and be s*** frightened of contact we could have comfortably retained him.

He was not and is no gun, but he's better than what we replaced him with.

Bruce could only dream of playing a game like Jones and Hill did yesterday.

[Joffa Burns]

Bruce played true to form when the heat was on last night - he shat the bed on a couple of marking attempts. Is a head case and the club did the right thing by off loading him.

Bruce is a solid average AFL player, he gave us very good service for the price we paid for him.
He's fit and durable and is a best 18 player in a club that has lost 1 game this season.

He's better than the following KPP or ruck players on our list:

1. 'slips through his fingers'
2. Hunter
3. Carslile (not at his peak but now)
4. Clavarino
5. Joyce
6. Alabakis
7. Battle
Arguable that he is better than King is at this point in time.

We'd be better with him than without him & I'd rather Bruce than Hill & Hannebery and had we not sold the farm for a washed up has-been who'll be lucky to play another game for the club or a player who appears to not care and be s*** frightened of contact we could have comfortably retained him.

He was not and is no gun, but he's better than what we replaced him with.

Bruce could only dream of playing a game like Jones and Hill did yesterday.

Arguably his dream came true in round 3......

Round 3 - 2021
Josh Bruce
Kicks; 15
Hand balls: 6
Tackles: 3
Marks: 10
Goals: 10
Behinds: 2

[saynta]

Bruce played true to form when the heat was on last night - he shat the bed on a couple of marking attempts. Is a head case and the club did the right thing by off loading him.

Bruce is a solid average AFL player, he gave us very good service for the price we paid for him.
He's fit and durable and is a best 18 player in a club that has lost 1 game this season.

He's better than the following KPP or ruck players on our list:

1. 'slips through his fingers'
2. Hunter
3. Carslile (not at his peak but now)
4. Clavarino
5. Joyce
6. Alabakis
7. Battle
Arguable that he is better than King is at this point in time.

We'd be better with him than without him & I'd rather Bruce than Hill & Hannebery and had we not sold the farm for a washed up has-been who'll be lucky to play another game for the club or a player who appears to not care and be s*** frightened of contact we could have comfortably retained him.

He was not and is no gun, but he's better than what we replaced him with.

Bruce could only dream of playing a game like Jones and Hill did yesterday.

Arguably his dream came true in round 3......

Round 3 - 2021
Josh Bruce
Kicks; 15
Hand balls: 6
Tackles: 3
Marks: 10
Goals: 10
Behinds: 2

I was as certain as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow morning that you would bring that game up.

I am just as certain that that game was a one off effort never to be repeated mate. Never.

[samuraisaint]

The big question for me is about development.
Today, our reserves, the Zebras, who haven't won a game yet (there's only been a couple though) play the Hawks reserves side, which is very inexperienced, given that they had some outs this week, and played five of their multiple premiership players against us last night.
Our younger recruits will play alongside Shaun McKernan, Sam Dunnell, Ben Long, Jake Carlisle, Dean Kent, Paul Hunter, Mason Wood & Luke Dunstan.
I would fully expect that Sandringham win this by the same margin as our seniors did last night.
If we don't win this match today, given the Hawks youth and inexperience, hard questions will need to be asked.

Really why? Those playing there, besides the likes of Clav & Connolly, should know the repercussions on their careers. Whether Sandi won or lost it explains why those you mentioned are playing at Sandi.

Because I am questioning the structures in place down there for developing players to play in positions when they enter/re-enter the seniors so that they don't look like a fish out of water when they get their chances. And of course to help them become great players for the St. KFC.

Reports from the match today, for instance, are that we kicked 11 goals in a row, established a handy lead (as we did last week) but in the second half only managed 2 goals to 12 against a very inexperienced and young Box Hill outfit, and this was similar to what happened last week by all accounts. Very disappointing if at all accurate.

All the successful clubs have a strong reserves team, and this is what we need to have to have sustained on-field success

[Scollop]

second half fade outs....hmmmmmmm

Not fit enough perhaps.... Maybe they're not working hard enough at training.

Maybe they're waiting until July August to ramp things up in time for finals

[samoht]

Being inexplicably overlooked in favour of Billy Longer after a very good season wouldn’t have helped his confidence.

The other thing, of course, is the old saying that it takes big blokes longer to come on. It’s true in many cases.

Ryder, for example, is just approaching his prime

He is very good around the ground - at ground level (he's averaging over 16 possessions per game this year) - but
... his lack of aggression and physicality are perhaps 2 good reasons, as mentioned by skeptic.
So maybe not entirely inexplicable.
He's a ruckman who only averages 2 marks per game (despite a great year) and no contested marks.
He's the ruckman equivalent of Jack Watts ... who (despite his 196 cms) played more like a flanker than a key position player.