Ross Lyon recruiting finally getting smelly?

[saintsRrising]

Lyon lovers getting fewer all the time on here.

We all know who the true believers are!

LOL. I don't love Lyon as my posts by now should have made clear if you actually read them, but yes I loved the years when the Saints were feared and respected and when we won virtually all the time.

Unlike most on here now I believe he took a good team and made it better and for one year unbeliebably good. Believed it then, and still believe it now.

Some like Con believe it was a free ride. My view is that is bulls***.

[SainterK]

I think he is the master of buy in.

I bought in, the boys bought in, freo players have bought in.

How long it lasts we shall see.

[whiskers3614]

I never bought in!

of course I would have cheered him if we had achieved the ultimate...

but you know "if my aunt had whiskers..."

[Scollop]

I think he is the master of buy in.

I bought in, the boys bought in, freo players had bought in.

How long it lasts we shall see.

I'll buy that comment but I've edited your post for accuracy

[Con Gorozidis]

Lyon lovers getting fewer all the time on here.

We all know who the true believers are!

LOL. I don't love Lyon as my posts by now should have made clear if you actually read them, but yes I loved the years when the Saints were feared and respected and when we won virtually all the time.

Unlike most on here now I believe he took a good team and made it better and for one year unbeliebably good. Believed it then, and still believe it now.

Some like Con believe it was a free ride. My view is that is bulls***.

Not sure it was a free ride but I think he inherited a very good list at a very good time. 10 x AA is objective evidence of this. And most of those AA were in the age sweet spot during 07-10.

Anyway - if he is truly a great coach - well he has an opportunity to prove it in the next three years. Right here right now. If he cant get back up the top then he will merely be remembered as a long serving and good coach alongside the likes of John Northey and Rodney Eade. Nothing to be ashamed of. Still top 15-20% of all time coaches. Just not top 10%.

Still one heck of an achievement. How many AFL games have I coached? ZERO.

[BigMart]

At the time who had more AA players?

Of Course it helps when you have previous or potential AA players helps... All talented yes??

[Con Gorozidis]

At the time who had more AA players?

Of Course it helps when you have previous or potential AA players helps... All talented yes??

Geelong 2009 had 13 x AA

So in fact that makes Lyon bloody unlucky. 13 AA is a pretty bloody good side.

[BigMart]

It is...

That's why they won three flags in 6 years and played in another GF

My question was though, who had the most AAs in 2009?

I think StK were the better team over the year... Lost on the day because a few went missing

[saintsRrising]

It is...



My question was though, who had the most AAs in 2009?

Is it?

Your question seems to keep changing...

SR

Being an AA.

Anyway you cut and dice it Lyon did not have a decisive AA advantage.
Past or previous
I think it means that you can play the game a bit... Doesn't it

Everyone uses it when convincing of the capabilities of Carlisle.. Even though he never actually was ... And has had 3 years of non achievement since.

However it was 5 all in 2009

In 2009. Saints had 2, Cats 6 and Pies 4
So anyway you cut and dice it Lyon did not have a clear AA advantage

[BigMart]

The goal posts are continually shifting, I have to change direction with them

First Con suggested StK were a good list in 2009 due to the umber of AA (past, present, future)

I agreed because being an AA is an indicator of some sort of talent as you must be amongst the best in the AFL in that position to get a spot

SR suggested Geelong were great (initially 15 then 16 or 17?)

I agreed that Geelong were also great and this (+ 3 flags) probably proves this?!

Then I think the suggestion was StK cannot beat a team with more AAs
Well that's then dependant

Form, fitness, age demographic, motivation... And other intangibles... Bounce of the ball, weather, missed opportunities

Fact is
In 2009 we were a better team than Geelong and lost... Couldn't get it done when it mattered! Ditto 1997

Nearly stole it in 2010 because of the Goddard/Hayes show

[Con Gorozidis]

It is...

That's why they won three flags in 6 years and played in another GF

My question was though, who had the most AAs in 2009?

I think StK were the better team over the year... Lost on the day because a few went missing

I did a re-count.

We had 11! Gardiner was AA in 2003.

They had 13 I think.

So 11 v 13.

Incredible really.

[Con Gorozidis]

It is...



My question was though, who had the most AAs in 2009?

Is it?

Your question seems to keep changing...

SR

Being an AA.

Anyway you cut and dice it Lyon did not have a decisive AA advantage.
Past or previous
I think it means that you can play the game a bit... Doesn't it

Everyone uses it when convincing of the capabilities of Carlisle.. Even though he never actually was ... And has had 3 years of non achievement since.

However it was 5 all in 2009

In 2009. Saints had 2, Cats 6 and Pies 4
So anyway you cut and dice it Lyon did not have a clear AA advantage

I have it as Saints 11 AA v Cats 13 AA in 2009.

Saints 9 v Pies 10 in 2010.

So Lyon was at an 'AA disadvantage' in both matches.

We lost King and Ball from 09 to 10. Collingwood gained Ball.

[saintsRrising]

The goal posts are continually shifting, I have to change direction with them

First Con suggested StK were a good list in 2009 due to the umber of AA (past, present, future)

I agreed because being an AA is an indicator of some sort of talent as you must be amongst the best in the AFL in that position to get a spot

SR suggested Geelong were great (initially 15 then 16 or 17?)

I agreed that Geelong were also great and this (+ 3 flags) probably proves this?!

Then I think the suggestion was StK cannot beat a team with more AAs
Well that's then dependant

Form, fitness, age demographic, motivation... And other intangibles... Bounce of the ball, weather, missed opportunities

Fact is
In 2009 we were a better team than Geelong and lost... Couldn't get it done when it mattered! Ditto 1997

Nearly stole it in 2010 because of the Goddard/Hayes show

Nice try BigMart. No I stated that the Cats has 16AA's. You are getting confused with the number of AA players under GT's reign that past, present, future won AA selection. I also said that on checking Cons claculation that his 10 was wrong as well.

Con in this thread was indicating that Brownless could have won two flags because we had 10 AAs with the clear implication thatt we should have won two flags because of all our AA's. Con and you were both evidently completely ignorant tthat the Cat's by Con's measure actually had more AA's.

I questioned this because 1/ he was not actually comparing this to other clubs (and hence any stat for a club unless compared to another club has no meaning) and 2/ that his numbers of AA did not add up. That is when it became clear that his figures were rubbery as he was including past, present, future.

Using his method I then demostrated that GT had more AAs for no flags, and secondly the team we were meant to defeat the Cats had more AAs as well.

Fact is you and Con have been trotting out a flawed argument in the way you were attempting to use it - that is when compared to other data points the AA data actually would indicate that we should not have won any flags, and should have been more successful under GT. I understand though that you cannot admit that you were wrong in this.

This whole AA red-herring was your and Con's argument that Lyon should have won two flags. It was an argument with no factual basis when tested. Con went early again without checking.

[Johnny Member]

You're making yourself look silly Srr.

Let it go.


Lyon has proven you wrong. Move on.

[saintsRrising]

You're making yourself look silly Srr.

Let it go.


Lyon has proven you wrong. Move on.

About what exactly?

I am no different from most, if not all, on this forum in stating that Lyon has made the mistake in not evolving his tactics and gameplan. AFL stands still for no one.

Where I am different is I have no regrets in him being at the Saints. As far as I am concerned he was the right man at the right time . He was not perfect, but I very much doubt that any other person available to Saints would have done as well, let alone better as Head Coach. I mean can you name another coach that got into Grand Finals with such an incompetent Board, Admin and List Management Team?

This thread too was on list mangement, and from what I have read in this thread it would appear IMO that many overstate Lyon's involvement in list management.


PS: Why do I need to move on? I am quite happy with Richo as Coach, Our List Management Team, Finnis, Summers, etc

[BigMart]

Don't you believe Lyon should have won a flag at StK in his time?

Riewoldt 25-30
Hayes 27-32
Milne 27-32
Fisher 25-30
Goddard 22-
Montagna 24-29
Dal Santo 23-28
Baker 27-31
Gram 24-28
Schnieder 26-29
Hudghton 28-31
Ball 23-26
Koschitzke 25-30
Jones 24-29
Ray 23-28
Dempster 23-28
R.Clarke 22-26
McQualter 21-25


Seems like a fair list of talent in a good age demographic to me?!

[saintsRrising]

Don't you believe Lyon should have won a flag at StK in his time?

Riewoldt 25-30
Hayes 27-32
Milne 27-32
Fisher 25-30
Goddard 22-
Montagna 24-29
Dal Santo 23-28
Baker 27-31
Gram 24-28
Schnieder 26-29
Hudghton 28-31
Ball 23-26
Koschitzke 25-30
Jones 24-29
Ray 23-28
Dempster 23-28
R.Clarke 22-26
McQualter 21-25


Seems like a fair list of talent in a good age demographic to me?!

Well given this was a thread on list management in the Lyon era (or rather eras if you including Freo), I take your post to mean that it was in fact ok in his time at StKilda? In which case we agree.

[BigMart]

He inherited that list

needed to add young talent to the core (Armitage, Steven, Stenley, Lynch, Cripps (yes, whom I despise) as fringe players)

Not Pattisons, Polo's, Peake's, Gambles, Birss, C.Gardiner's....

2 reasons
Help to continually develop for the future
Talent will generally come out on top

Collingwood had Blair, Sidebottom and Beams as kids in the strongest side in the comp

Ross was a brilliant senior team coach for the weekend
a terrible club coach, beause he ignored junior development
which ultimately cost him 1... possibly two flags

we lost by a whisker both times

Armitage (21) plays in 09 (IMO on a wet ground level day, he makes a slight difference)
Steven (20) plays in 2010 as a (IMO that makes a slight difference) Armo (22) clearly plays.

Geary in consideration

One of those years Dempster played as a forward for whatever reason?

2011
Stanley, Lynch, Steven all play fairly consistently at 21yo even Cripps 18 gets more games

you need to keep injecting youth

[Sainternist]

Armitage (21) plays in 09 (IMO on a wet ground level day, he makes a slight difference)
Steven (20) plays in 2010 as a (IMO that makes a slight difference) Armo (22) clearly plays.

I'm still baffled how blokes like Eddy, McQualter and Peake were selected ahead of those two.

Armo made an immediate impact in 2011 after he (finally) convinced RL's selections he was well equipped. Then in 2012, we all knew Jackie Boy would be an integral player. I'm convinced if they were blooded sooner they would have contributed a hell of a lot more than the fringe players who were given the nod instead of them.

[BigMart]

Have a look at a few of Jacks early game stats

He was up to it almost straight away after debut ... As a small fwd initially

Armo - bizarre his non selection

Ross preferred a known 5/10
Over
A possibly (but natural for a kid) sway from 2/10 - 7/10

[samoht]

This thread is getting slightly musty as well.

[Sainternist]

Have a look at a few of Jacks early game stats

He was up to it almost straight away after debut ... As a small fwd initially

Armo - bizarre his non selection

Ross preferred a known 5/10
Over
A possibly (but natural for a kid) sway from 2/10 - 7/10

BM, it's interesting to note that the youngest players who were regulars in the 2009 and 2010 teams were Sam Gilbert, James Gwilt and Robert Eddy. All of whom were around 23 years old at the time. This would suggest Ross was just too apprehensive to develop the younger players. Jackie Steven kicked 10 goals in 8 games in 2010. I reckon he could have been more than handy as well as Armo in our 2010 finals campaign.